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[Gwazi Magnum]

but you are fine in my books now, brother.

And whose to say that Marchosias or Kakumei might not have reached that point too if they were given time to wake up, mature etc?

Like, if the Iwaku Staff were the Staff running the RP Guild I would have been banned LOOOOOONG ago.

 

[Kagayours]

I actually stopped posting in GC because they flustered my butt so much I wanted to strangle them in every thread I saw them. I'm pretty good at getting mad easy xD. I think the last thread I posted in there was open relationships? Yeah, I definitely made an ass of myself and tore into them. >> I've decided to manage my lack of restraint by keeping away from irritants.

Earlier today, I tried. I really did. I tried one last time to see if I could point out what was wrong with her arguments...

But no. Each post of hers was wrapped in too many layers of hypocrisy and arguments made with logical fallacies that it was impossible to get through to her.

I think the obvious hypocrisy in her last thread there really shows just what her entire problem was all along.

It's gotten to the point where her arguments are honestly just infuriating for me to read... and I can think of plenty of threads that were going just fine before turning into a derpbate, often due to her shit-flinging.

I'm actually looking forward to a more peaceful GC.

Maybe it's cause I used to be the forum under dog.

But I don't tend to take any pleasure in seeing people get banned.
Even if they were difficult with other members. :/

Ordinarily? I don't, either.

But that's usually because I try to be as empathetic as possible and can usually see when members are at least trying.

I didn't like it when Kakumei got banned, for instance -- but Kakumei, despite having some very unpopular opinions, was at least trying to understand the other side of things -- even when he was blunt and rude about his opinions to begin with. I explained things to him (as did other members), and he really started to open up after a while. Even when he still disagreed about things, it was clear that he was actually making an effort to understand the other side.

I often take pity on whatever poor soul is being torn apart by the forums, because, even when their arguments are completely cringe-worthy, I can usually see where they're coming from. Sometimes I even PM them and try to explain why their actions aren't working, and give them advice on how to get out of that cycle of forum-hate (*wink wink*). In fact, I'm actually starting to go down that same road with another member here whose arguments can also sometimes be cringe-worthy... though, in this case, it had a lot more to do with him reaching out to me for help than the other way around. o.o Which is new...

But anyway, my point is,

I never saw any of that from March. She was always acting too constantly antagonistic and thick-headed for anyone to get through to her in any way. If I were to even try to help her in the same way I helped you, I'm nearly positive I would've been pushed away (not that I would want to help her, since I didn't see the same victim in her that I sometimes see in this sort of thing). Even Brovo's eloquently-worded post in that last thread didn't get through to her. She just turned it around and used it in support of her own hypocritical bullshit. She was so dense about every argument brought against her, that I knew she was beyond help.

Especially after what happened in the animal thread earlier today, I had pretty much come to the conclusion that we'd all just have to learn to either get used to her or wait for her to slip up and get banned for something, because there was no way that she was ever going to change.

To be honest, though, I didn't expect her to tumble straight into bannable territory quite so quickly.

ANYWAY, now that I've said my piece, we probably shouldn't let this discussion get too drawn-out. Pretty sure we're not even supposed to be having this conversation...

 

[Kagayours]

Yes it is something that can happen in this universe. I haven't fully developed the idea yet because I actually haven't done as much worldbuilding as I should have by this point. But it is a thing that will happen.

And yeah I forgot about actually explaining how it works... Basically you "build" the correct pronoun to use by going through each section of the chart. The important part is the "prefix", in the first part of the chart, the Sex/Gender part. The "suffix" would be whatever you add to it depending on the situation.

I'll explain it with an example: The main character is female in both sex and gender, so her pronoun prefix would be "sa" ("s" for biologically female, "a" for mentally female). Whenever she was referring to herself, she would add "y" to the end of it because the "y" is used to refer to oneself. So to say "I am [name]", she would instead say "Say am [name]." If she was instead saying "My name is [name]", that would use the "r" of ownership", so the pronoun would have r between the "sa" and the "y". So she would say: "Sary name is [name]."

Does this make sense....?

Yo maybe I'll give it a look some other time. Gotta admit: my mind is elsewhere right now.

And whose to say that Marchosias or Kakumei might not have reached that point too if they were given time to wake up, mature etc?

Like, if the Iwaku Staff were the Staff running the RP Guild I would have been banned LOOOOOONG ago.

Kakumei? Yes. I was disappointed that Kakumei got banned so soon, but I figured that, whatever line he crossed, the mods must've had good reason. I trust that it must've gone a step beyond whatever his standard fare was at the time.

March? No. I've already explained how I feel about that. There were plenty of opportunities for her to change, and she never did.

I was going to go on a longer rant about that just now, but I realize that I really should stop.

Anywho, I certainly don't see you being banned in that hypothetical. You know why? Because your problem on RPG was that you kept turning things into debates when they didn't need to be (usually just by asking questions and wanting to understand more, though), and then you were way too eager to defend yourself when anyone sighed and rolled their eyes like "well shit guys Gwazi's at it again". The problem was that everyone thought of you as the debate-starter, and, even when you had opportunities to just try to move past those accusations, you were always too eager to open that wound up again and start shit.

But here's the thing, though.

Your version of "starting shit" was just "I seriously don't understand why you keep saying I start debates. What happened was this and this and this and..." Basically, even though your responses were annoying and kept opening old wounds, I could at least see some semblance of someone earnestly trying to understand things and get along with people under all that. You were just going about it the wrong way, was the problem. And, when someone (meeee) pointed out the error of your ways in a calm and friendly way, trying to help you, you were able to improve.

I was the one who had to fill that void on RPG because no one else would, iirc. Brovo for one was certainly sick of you, and probably a lot of other members were, too. No one was trying to help you.

But March?? Plenty of people tried to reach out to March. Brovo did, at least. And there have been plenty of other examples of members being like "Hey, look, March, I get where you're coming from, but this is the problem", and she just turns it around and refuses to admit any of her own flaws, and then continues to be passive-aggressive at others. And, hell, I'm only talking about public examples of this happening here! Who knows how many PM conversations there could've been?? I mean, I know I didn't really try to help you till we took it to PM's. I bet there were probably other members who tried to do the same for her, especially if it was already happening out in the open. But... she just refuses to change. The staff gave her plenty of chances, but, it just became abundantly clear that she was never going to improve -- at least not during Iwaku's lifetime.

Besides, the staff here are phenomenal. They say that banning is taken very seriously and that each ban is given tons of careful consideration, and that those members (unless they're obvious spam-bots, of course) get plenty of 2nd chances. And I trust their word on this. I seriously doubt they would've banned you, seeing just how involved they are and how much it seems that they really want to help. I trust the mods here enough that I don't doubt their decisions. And, as far as March is concerned, I definitely agree that she was past the point of help.

 

[Flame]

And whose to say that Marchosias or Kakumei might not have reached that point too if they were given time to wake up, mature etc?

Like, if the Iwaku Staff were the Staff running the RP Guild I would have been banned LOOOOOONG ago.

March was aware of her shitty behavior, and openly flamed in her last thread. Kak, however, I talked with behind the scenes. He seemed alright, I guess, I have nothing against him, he just pressed his luck and got banned. I specifically remember calling out Grumpy for being a bad staff member (at the time, dunno about now) just before he got banned too. Dunno what's happened with that, though. Haven't been in GC for a while now.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Pretty sure we're not even supposed to be having this conversation...

Honestly? If a Staff or Admin comes in here and tells us to stop talking about this then consider this post my farewell to Iwaku post.

I outright refuse to stay on a site where authority can't at least be criticized.
That just shows to me they have serious power/authority/control issues, and by using to prevent people from disagreeing it only snowballs into rather abusive uses of power.

And, when someone (meeee) pointed out the error of your ways in a calm and friendly way, trying to help you, you were able to improve.

Thanks for that again by the way. :)

No one was trying to help you.

Well... That get's a little complicated. :/

First off part of the reason you managed to get through to me was also timing.
Both in the sense of getting me in a more receptive moment, and after I'd been desperately banging my head against a wall for a while so I was starting to get tired.

Then there's the whole "I'm helping but not really" crowd.
By this I'm talking about those who help because they want to look/feel good. Pat themselves on the back as being "The guy who helped".
But the issue is these people going into it without patience, because they're looking for the good guy gratification.
So when the person start's arguing/going back and fourth they'll give up and leave.
And I guarantee you that when you talked to me I didn't just nod and go "Eureka!" instantly. There was a lot of back and fourth of me questioning you as to "Why".

Even with the Public posts I was noticing that. They were very good posts... But they didn't get much follow up, if it didn't work they just gave up on it.
And yes a lot of Individuals were helping, but I'm not sure if there was an individual was doing it consistently.
And to compare that to us on the Guild, that be as if you sent me one PM, left it at that, then Brovo sent one, left it at that, etc.
Yes I'm technically getting a lot of help, but there's no basis of an individual person willing to tough it out and say "I'm there for you".

And personally? If that's how it was for me on the Guild my response would have been "Fuck you guys, no one seems to truly care".

And honestly, back on the Guild I can actually point at a few others who did attempt to help.
Doivid, Scribz, Hell even Brovo etc. But they came in briefly, and then gave up when it wasn't an instant turn around.

Who knows how many PM conversations there could've been??

Personally I explain that to a culture difference between the two sites.

The Guild, very rarely did someone try to help another publicly. They were very, very big into cliche mentalities.
So attempts to help others were almost always private, because public attempts would be scrutinized by people going "Lol! Why you helping him!?".

Iwaku though seems to have a built a much more bigger and overall community.
Like yes you get cliches still in the sense there's specialized groups, but they don't divide people the way they did on the Guild.
People are more willing to discuss this stuff open because very people are going to bump in and try to troll it off.

And if I go by the personal PM to Public count?

I only one or two cases of trying to handle something serious through PMs?
Everything else is Public.

Besides, the staff here are phenomenal. They say that banning is taken very seriously and that each ban is given tons of careful consideration, and that those members (unless they're obvious spam-bots, of course) get plenty of 2nd chances. And I trust their word on this. I seriously doubt they would've banned you, seeing just how involved they are and how much it seems that they really want to help. I trust the mods here enough that I don't doubt their decisions. And, as far as March is concerned, I definitely agree that she was past the point of help.

Eh... :/

If someone start's reporting these posts I'm likely going to get some serious shit here, but my faith in the Staff (or more specifically the Admins) method of handling bans isn't something I have that strong faith in. Mainly because everytime I ask about it I get very vague answers. "We consider a lot!", "We give them a lot of chances!".

Hell even with their reasoning for closing Iwaku to invite only the just gave answers like "We're over worked", "People aren't trained enough".
They never give any specifics on it, so you're never left knowing exactly what the issue is or what they're doing. You just have to take it at their word that their interpretation of it is the same as yours.

I mean I get why they probably do that. If they did give more specifics details then certain members might start try number crunching and trying to propose/force 'better' ways to do it.

But... I have big issues following or keeping faith in anything where I'm being feed vague and subjective information rather than anything hard and factual.
Mind you isn't me trying to claim the Staff are bad, manipulative or anything like that. I'm just noting the level of info they are willing to give doesn't really fit my comfort levels... at all.

*If you look at Akihabara's Ban, you'll notice one of the reasoning's listed is basically "Being an all around bad person!" (I'm paraphrasing here btw).
Now, he'd did a TON of truly awful things. His ban was more than justified on concrete actions and proof alone. That commentary was completely unnecessary.
And to me it kind of spelt out a sense of strong bias/vigilantism with leadership. Where they'll do things just cause they 'feel' it's right, which would also explain the vague details they often give.

Now I know you could also say "But the Guild Staff never gave any info at all!". Which is true.
But the difference is they barely did anything, period. I didn't need to worry about their details, because there was nothing they did that gave me a need to know it.
The Iwaku Staff are active enough though that the details does start to become important for me.

I specifically remember calling out Grumpy for being a bad staff member (at the time, dunno about now) just before he got banned too. Dunno what's happened with that, though. Haven't been in GC for a while now.

Grumpy's been making a bigger habit/reputation of closing threads the second they start turning to a debate and/or shit-flinging. :P
Hasn't been acting out against individual members much though.

It's almost as if Diana loosened his Muzzle for thread locking in exchange for tightening it for dealing with specific people.

 

[Flame]

Grumpy's been making a bigger habit/reputation of closing threads the second they start turning to a debate and/or shit-flinging. :P
Hasn't been acting out against individual members much though.

It's almost as if Diana loosened his Muzzle for thread locking in exchange for tightening it for dealing with specific people.

Good to hear. The ganging-up that Kak got just before he got the can was totally uncalled for, and I was legitimately pissed at his behavior. Albeit, I was told I should have used the report a staffer feature, but somehow I think that would not have gotten the point across. Someone has to make a scene in the open to show the others that that kind of gang-mentality isn't acceptable, and if it's my ass that has to be shown, I'm cool with that.

I'm not, and never will be cool with the removal of the debate tags, or shushing of certain controversial topics or bans. Shit like that never happened on the guild, and it's the one thing I could care less for here. Feels like people here are whiny, oversensitive babies or something. I don't like the preemptive warnings and lockings when no real foul shit has hit the shore. That isn't how proper law and order works. You find reasonable evidence of a crime being committed (I.E. a ticket is sent out to the mods or w/e) then the hammer comes down. To me it feels like they have nothing better to do than to troll GC for any signs of offence. In which case, they don't have enough work to do. You know what watching and waiting for someone to commit a crime is called here? Entrapment. It's something cops get in trouble for.

 

[Kagayours]

Honestly? If a Staff or Admin comes in here and tells us to stop talking about this then consider this post my farewell to Iwaku post.

I outright refuse to stay on a site where authority can't at least be criticized.
That just shows to me they have serious power/authority/control issues, and by using to prevent people from disagreeing it only snowballs into rather abusive uses of power.

>> I don't see it as not wanting criticism as much as the fact that talking shit about a member who got banned is kind of in poor taste -- not to mention, it opens the floodgates for an even shittier discussion.

I mean, imagine if we were discussing this in GC right now. ...Yeah, shit would've been flung, and it would've gotten ugly.

Having rules against discussing bans seems perfectly reasonable in that regard.

Discussing it here seems like it kind of gets past the reasoning for such a rule, but... yeah, still feels in bad taste, which was why I cut myself off when I got close to ranting about March more than I needed to in order to get my point across.

Well... That get's a little complicated. :/

First off part of the reason you managed to get through to me was also timing.
Both in the sense of getting me in a more receptive moment, and after I'd been desperately banging my head against a wall for a while so I was starting to get tired.

Then there's the whole "I'm helping but not really" crowd.
By this I'm talking about those who help because they want to look/feel good. Pat themselves on the back as being "The guy who helped".
But the issue is these people going into it without patience, because they're looking for the good guy gratification.
So when the person start's arguing/going back and fourth they'll give up and leave.
And I guarantee you that when you talked to me I didn't just nod and go "Eureka!" instantly. There was a lot of back and fourth of me questioning you as to "Why".

Even with the Public posts I was noticing that. They were very good posts... But they didn't get much follow up, if it didn't work they just gave up on it.
And yes a lot of Individuals were helping, but I'm not sure if there was an individual was doing it consistently.
And to compare that to us on the Guild, that be as if you sent me one PM, left it at that, then Brovo sent one, left it at that, etc.
Yes I'm technically getting a lot of help, but there's no basis of an individual person willing to tough it out and say "I'm there for you".

And personally? If that's how it was for me on the Guild my response would have been "Fuck you guys, no one seems to truly care".

And honestly, back on the Guild I can actually point at a few others who did attempt to help.
Doivid, Scribz, Hell even Brovo etc. But they came in briefly, and then gave up when it wasn't an instant turn around.

*shrugs* Eh. My memory of the whole thing isn't good enough to really weigh in much further on this point (plus I'm getting kind of spacey and it's hard to retain all this and think it through, tbh).

All I know is: March certainly wasn't accepting help from no one. You might've been asking "Why?", but March didn't even get that far.

Personally I explain that to a culture difference between the two sites.

The Guild, very rarely did someone try to help another publicly. They were very, very big into cliche mentalities.
So attempts to help others were almost always private, because public attempts would be scrutinized by people going "Lol! Why you helping him!?".

Iwaku though seems to have a built a much more bigger and overall community.
Like yes you get cliches still in the sense there's specialized groups, but they don't divide people the way they did on the Guild.
People are more willing to discuss this stuff open because very people are going to bump in and try to troll it off.

And if I go by the personal PM to Public count?

I only one or two cases of trying to handle something serious through PMs?
Everything else is Public.

Eh, fair enough.

But just because more things are public on Iwaku, though, doesn't mean that nothing was going on in PM's. It's really impossible to say how many PM's might've been sent to March. My only point was, we've seen tons of people trying to help her on public threads, and there may have been a countless amount of PM's in addition to that. Who knows what that number could've been really.

Point is, though, plenty of visible attempts to help were had.

Eh... :/

If someone start's reporting these posts I'm likely going to get some serious shit here, but my faith in the Staff (or more specifically the Admins) method of handling bans isn't something I have that strong faith in. Mainly because everytime I ask about it I get very vague answers. "We consider a lot!", "We give them a lot of chances!".

Hell even with their reasoning for closing Iwaku to invite only the just gave answers like "We're over worked", "People aren't trained enough".
They never give any specifics on it, so you're never left knowing exactly what the issue is or what they're doing. You just have to take it at their word that their interpretation of it is the same as yours.

I mean I get why they probably do that. If they did give more specifics details then certain members might start try number crunching and trying to propose/force 'better' ways to do it.

But... I have big issues following or keeping faith in anything where I'm being feed vague and subjective information rather than anything hard and factual.
Mind you isn't me trying to claim the Staff are bad, manipulative or anything like that. I'm just noting the level of info they are willing to give doesn't really fit my comfort levels... at all.

*If you look at Akihabara's Ban, you'll notice one of the reasoning's listed is basically "Being an all around bad person!" (I'm paraphrasing here btw).
Now, he'd did a TON of truly awful things. His ban was more than justified on concrete actions and proof alone. That commentary was completely unnecessary.
And to me it kind of spelt out a sense of strong bias/vigilantism with leadership. Where they'll do things just cause they 'feel' it's right, which would also explain the vague details they often give.

Now I know you could also say "But the Guild Staff never gave any info at all!". Which is true.
But the difference is they barely did anything, period. I didn't need to worry about their details, because there was nothing they did that gave me a need to know it.
The Iwaku Staff are active enough though that the details does start to become important for me.

Have you tried PMing any of them about this?? Because that might get you further.

The staff have never struck me as the type to keep anything vague or covered up. Anytime I've seen anyone ask questions, they give answers that seemed suitable enough for me. Maybe they didn't realize you really wanted them to be that specific, giving statistics and all that. Did you even ask? I honestly can't remember.

And, in any case, disclosing all that information publicly is a whole other matter, because then there's the possibility of a whole discussion/debate forming around a lot of that info, and that's just extra noise that the staff don't always need to hear. Private forums exist for a reason. Still, though, when it comes to giving enough info to get the point across, I always felt they did a good enough job.

But, if that's not enough for you, try asking in PM's. Go for the gold and hit up Diana if you must. While I can understand why you might feel dubious about other mods, Diana never struck me as the type to keep anything secret if it didn't need to be. I trust her. And, without the risk of a public debate brewing? I can totally see her being willing to get a lot more specific and in-depth with you in PM's if it'll ease your worries.

And as for the comments about why each member is banned: I really don't see why this bothers you so much, especially if you want more information from them. The whole point of those little notes is to explain why a member was banned, so that you don't have to go asking around and then get frustrated when the mods keep trying to silence you from asking. That's what used to happen on RPG (and probably a lot of other sites). Iwaku, though? They make it clear what a member was banned for, so that you don't have to be left in the dark. I'd say that's pretty open and informative if you ask me. And, well, it makes sense that the ban notices would be concise. It's a bit ridiculous (not to mention not really needed at all) to really list every offense that a member made before needing to be banned. If there's an easy way to sum it up, like "not being able to play nice with others", then that seems like a perfectly good explanation to give.

Regardless, I had no idea you felt this kind of distrust about the staff here. >>

Besides, I'd say they're plenty open to criticism. They're always open to stuff. The very fact that JoJo didn't get immediately snapped at for daring to shit-talk a mod says quite a bit about that. I actually feel confident saying something against the mods if I feel they've done something wrong -- that's more than I can say about just about any site I've ever been on. >>

I mean, I'm not trying to ostracize you about your opinion or nothin', it's just... yeah. I had no idea you felt this way.

And the overdramatic "if X, Y, and Z happens, you can consider this my goodbye post" statements are really starting to rub me the wrong way.... :/

 

[Kagayours]

report a staffer feature

Oh right. That's a thing that exists. I almost forgot.

That's practically the definition of willingness to be criticized, sooo...

I'm not, and never will be cool with the removal of the debate tags, or shushing of certain controversial topics or bans. Shit like that never happened on the guild, and it's the one thing I could care less for here. Feels like people here are whiny, oversensitive babies or something. I don't like the preemptive warnings and lockings when no real foul shit has hit the shore. That isn't how proper law and order works. You find reasonable evidence of a crime being committed (I.E. a ticket is sent out to the mods or w/e) then the hammer comes down. To me it feels like they have nothing better to do than to troll GC for any signs of offence. In which case, they don't have enough work to do. You know what watching and waiting for someone to commit a crime is called here? Entrapment. It's something cops get in trouble for.

And, oh hey, speaking of authority, you know who's in charge here? Me. And I'm starting to really not like what I'm reading.

Call me oversensitive but I'm honestly starting to get more than a bit emotional over some of what's coming up here -- some of it for admittedly personal reasons, some of it not -- but, whatever the case, I would dissect this half of your post sentence-by-sentence and argue against it -- or, no, explain certain things... but, I'm having a really hard time wording my thoughts right now (as you may have noticed), and, all in all, I really don't like putting myself in this state.

But, since this isn't GC, I can't just click away and ignore all of this. I have a thread to uphold. And, despite being probably the laxest GM on the planet in terms of what sort of nonsense goes on in the OOC, I think this kind of emotionally-charged shit is where I'm going to have to draw the line, especially when it gets into this faux-political stuff that you all really should be talking to a staffer to if you're concerned about.

So to all of you: take this shit to PM's if you must (Gwazi, I don't even care if you PM me if you want to keep this going), but stop talking about it in my thread.

 

[Minerva]

Can I say one tiny thing about it, and the nothing else?

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Gwazi, I don't even care if you PM me if you want to keep this going, but stop talking about it in my thread.

Noted.

 

[Flame]

Oh right. That's a thing that exists. I almost forgot.

That's practically the definition of willingness to be criticized, sooo...


And, oh hey, speaking of authority, you know who's in charge here? Me. And I'm starting to really not like what I'm reading.

Call me oversensitive but I'm honestly starting to get more than a bit emotional over some of what's coming up here -- some of it for admittedly personal reasons, some of it not -- but, whatever the case, I would dissect this half of your post sentence-by-sentence and argue against it -- or, no, explain certain things... but, I'm having a really hard time wording my thoughts right now (as you may have noticed), and, all in all, I really don't like putting myself in this state.

But, since this isn't GC, I can't just click away and ignore all of this. I have a thread to uphold. And, despite being probably the laxest GM on the planet in terms of what sort of nonsense goes on in the OOC, I think this kind of emotionally-charged shit is where I'm going to have to draw the line, especially when it gets into this faux-political stuff that you all really should be talking to a staffer to if you're concerned about.

So to all of you: take this shit to PM's if you must (Gwazi, I don't even care if you PM me if you want to keep this going), but stop talking about it in my thread.

Awright Kaga, I'm done talkin' about it. Promise. *bows my head* I don't feel too emotionally charged at the moment, really. More tired than anything. xD I think I'm gonna go to bed in a couple minutes anyway. Sorry to hear I've rubbed you the wrong way here.

And, no, I have no plans on carrying this on in any sort of PM. That's my last bit on it.

 

[Kagayours]

Can I say one tiny thing about it, and the nothing else?

For sake of fairness: No. I said I want this discussion to stop and it's stopping. There are two many ways that one last comment could go and I do not want to add that one little bit to this. Say it in PM's if you must. But I don't want it here.

 

[Soulless]

(As a newbie, at above, can I ask for context pm?)

Finally posted!

 

[Neobullseye]

What I was referring to was actually a chart I made for a story I was working on sometime last or the year before last year. It's about a girl from an alternate universe who falls through a portal to this world. People from the main character's world look like normal humans, but their minds operate primarily on Logos instead of Pathos. Essentially, their society and all of its people base their decisions and actions on logical reasoning and what would be the most logically appropriate option rather than the most emotionally appealing option. This makes discipline far easier for their world than for our world.

...Can I go to that alternate universe? Please? Fuck this world and all the people that do stupid things based on a gut feeling >_>.

 

[Soulless]

...Can I go to that alternate universe? Please? Fuck this world and all the people that do stupid things based on a gut feeling >_>.

I actually don't know if that alternate universe would be all too different. This world is based on a logic. Emotions develop as a way of informing us what we need (food, water, safety, socialization, etc) as we social animals have complex needs but we only recently developed the ability to cognitively deduce our needs through abstract logical thought. Furthermore, if you look at the grander society, many illogical behaviors are ultimately quite logical grasps for social hierarchy, control, power, and the general social environment that feeds into someone's view of the world. If a perfectly logical person was informed that the world was flat for the whole of their existence, they have mountains of allegorical evidence against some random outsider saying otherwise and without significant evidence the logical thing to do is to be extremely skeptical/resistant.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

If a perfectly logical person was informed that the world was flat for the whole of their existence, they have mountains of allegorical evidence against some random outsider saying otherwise and without significant evidence the logical thing to do is to be extremely skeptical/resistant.

Sceptical yes, but not witch burning and the like.

Though I find the whole Logical Race VS Emotional Race seems to also be flawed for one big reason.
It's forgetting the element of Self VS Other.

Say a Logical Self would be logical... For self benefit. Society could burn for all they care, as long as their own life benefits.
But a Logical of others person would work towards what's best for the species overall.

Likewise emotional self? You get some pretty barbaric acts going on.
Emotional others is where you get the mixed bag of amazing movements, but also over zealous people with good intentions.

 

[Soulless]

Sceptical yes, but not witch burning and the like.

Though I find the whole Logical Race VS Emotional Race seems to also be flawed for one big reason.
It's forgetting the element of Self VS Other.

Say a Logical Self would be logical... For self benefit. Society could burn for all they care, as long as their own life benefits.
But a Logical of others person would work towards what's best for the species overall.

Likewise emotional self? You get some pretty barbaric acts going on.
Emotional others is where you get the mixed bag of amazing movements, but also over zealous people with good intentions.

Witch burning is the logical choice when you exist in a specific context where people have a lot to gain in terms of social power if they can call out undesirable members of their community as witches and are socially rewarded for brutal behavior towards the undesirables. The historical context in which witch burning occurs tend to be in that social situation where people benefit from prosecution.

The very judgement we have that witch burnings are terrible is a moral judgement by society in which we are rewarded socially by at least appearing disapproving of persecution behavior such as witch hunting. Therefore it is logical to judge witch breeding as very unacceptable in this societal context.

At least that's how I see the situation. There are many logical reasons behind terrible behavior, sometimes horrifically so. But of course, I've only been taught they are horrific, and therefore I have the emotional response of feeling horror...

Am I wrong?

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Witch burning is the logical choice when you exist in a specific context where people have a lot to gain in terms of social power if they can call out undesirable members of their community as witches and are socially rewarded for brutal behavior towards the undesirables. The historical context in which witch burning occurs tend to be in that social situation where people benefit from prosecution.

The very judgement we have that witch burnings are terrible is a moral judgement by society in which we are rewarded socially by at least appearing disapproving of persecution behavior such as witch hunting. Therefore it is logical to judge witch breeding as very unacceptable in this societal context.

At least that's how I see the situation. There are many logical reasons behind terrible behavior, sometimes horrifically so. But of course, I've only been taught they are horrific, and therefore I have the emotional response of feeling horror...

Am I wrong?

Ok, if your logical for self benefit that would work.
Though a logical towards society person? That wouldn't make any sense, because you're not only killing contributing and skilled members, but are setting the progress of humanity behind.

 

[Soulless]

Ok, if your logical for self benefit that would work.
Though a logical towards society person? That wouldn't make any sense, because you're not only killing contributing and skilled members, but are setting the progress of humanity behind.

Humans have developed to be social and intelligent and, in fact, much of the society benefits have been from individual thinkers who thought for themselves. Thinking in terms of society also means trusting society's greater authority over ones own beliefs and holding society higher over oneself. Competition among individual members of a group (for social gain, resources, etc.) can be considered one of the defining necessary aspects of individuality and higher self awareness as a sapient cognizant mind.

The idea of potentially killing contributing members is that there is someone benefiting socially more than the person whose life is being lost. Society has been set up so that the people doing the witch hunting are more valuable. In that respect they are merely meeting the expectations set by society to do exactly what it's considered for the best of society at the time.

At least this is how I've understood it.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Competition among individual members of a group (for social gain, resources, etc.) can be considered one of the defining necessary aspects of individuality and higher self awareness as a sapient cognizant mind.

Competition yes, but the butchering of others isn't needed to compete.
If anything it literally kills that competition.

The idea of potentially killing contributing members is that there is someone benefiting socially more than the person whose life is being lost. Society has been set up so that the people doing the witch hunting are more valuable. In that respect they are merely meeting the expectations set by society to do exactly what it's considered for the best of society at the time.

Witch burnings were often done for those who were different, pushed for scientific advancement etc.
I would personally value that much higher than people who'd rather be stagnant.