D
People are giving you proper responses and you aren't acknowledging them. :c Not gonna hold your hand through this. If you want people to treat you seriously engage with those people who are making relevant posts.Then give me something that either addresses this, or is a legitimate source that has an opposing opinion of this. I'm just asking for help to understand why people think differently from me.
Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is 'Mental Disorder;' Sex Change 'Biologically Impossible'
I read through and responded to what looked like serious relevant posts. I acknowledged and thanked them for it.People are giving you proper responses and you aren't acknowledging them. :c Not gonna hold your hand through this. If you want people to treat you seriously engage with those people who are making relevant posts.
If you aren't willing to take the time to learn from other people, they aren't going to want to bother with you. Thems the breaks, kid.
So that's one psychiatrist saying it's just a disorder to be treated.Then give me something that either addresses this, or is a legitimate source that has an opposing opinion of this. I'm just asking for help to understand why people think differently from me.
Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is 'Mental Disorder;' Sex Change 'Biologically Impossible'
Disclaimer- Serious question. (Apparently I have to do this now.)Their guidelines say it's only a disorder if it causes distress or disability,
I think I understand this. So that part about transgendered people having a higher suicide rate only applying to those that it would be considered a "disorder" for?More research and more data is required to make a firm judgment on whether or not it's actually a good thing, but the common stance seems to be that it should only be reserved for serious cases that would be logically classified as disorders.
Here's one definition for disability: "a physical or mental condition that limits a person's movements, senses, or activities."Disclaimer- Serious question. (Apparently I have to do this now.)
Does not being able to use your... "natural parts" somewhat of a disability? Or am I misunderstanding how its used as a term in this case?
Not necessarily. Even those who don't initially have any trouble with their gender stuff might end up being driven to suicide by hate and bullying from people who think they're a freak. I don't know if there's been any research done on that in specific though, so I'm just making a semi-educated guess here.I think I understand this. So that part about transgendered people having a higher suicide rate only applying to those that it would be considered a "disorder" for?
Well... this voids out my previous post's thoughts since it'd still technically be off-topic. Okay.Then give me something that either addresses this, or is a legitimate source that has an opposing opinion of this. I'm just asking for help to understand why people think differently from me.
Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is 'Mental Disorder;' Sex Change 'Biologically Impossible'
Okay, I understand this. So let me ask this, and its totally just asking for opinion so you know... Opinion away:Here's one definition for disability: "a physical or mental condition that limits a person's movements, senses, or activities."
If it impedes your ability to go about your life in a normal fashion, whether it's mobility or just doing whatever you want to do (within the law at least), then it can be classes as a disability. Depression could be disabling because it prevents you from having a normal functioning life. Gender identity disorder could be disabling because they can't do things as the gender they identify as, plus all those potential other disorders with a high comorbidity rate with GID. Inability to have a healthy sex life due to issues with genitalia (even simple disgust and dysphoria when seeing/using whatever you were born with, as some people with GID have) could also be considered a disability.
I guess that makes sense. I would (again, just opinion) think that waking up and looking at yourself in the mirror after changing your.. "plumbing", might drive someone to suicide more than others just being an asshole. People are assholes about everything, so I don't understand why transgendered people would be more susceptible to suicide. Again, that's just me.Not necessarily. Even those who don't initially have any trouble with their gender stuff might end up being driven to suicide by hate and bullying from people who think they're a freak. I don't know if there's been any research done on that in specific though, so I'm just making a semi-educated guess here.
I understand this, but being attracted to a certain sex (or gender) is different from wanting to be a certain sex (or gender). One has to do with physical feelings (far as I can tell) and the other is simply how you feel about your body. I think the arguments for who you love vs what you feel you are are different.Well For starters, being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender does not mean you have a legitimate 'mental disorder.' IN FACT: There is literally no liable proof that LGBTs are 'mental disorders' since this was a very long term debate between psychiatrists, scientists and more that flip-flops from saying "yes" and "no" throughout history. Not to mention that being LGBT has little to no effect on mental health, nor does it hold any effect against one's personality that are out of the norm. Most of the shit you hear is personal bias. Studies have proven that due to how people of the LGBT community differ in personality, that being LGBT is NOT in itself a mental illness and thus can NOT be cured.
I think I see an unfair generalization here. My parents (and myself) are "Mormons", as everyone else dubs us, and I am WAAAY into my own sex. I don't really get shit from them (lol, or myself.). I think to say "ALL of whom harass" is unfair.This however, if much different to a greater issue which is that LGBT communities ARE far more likely to HAVE an ACTUAL mental illness like anxiety, depression and the like, mostly because of where they were raised, the overly zealot families they may have and bigots, ALL of whom harass, dehumanize and harm these normal people who done nothing wrong besides a) liking the same sex, b) liking both sexes, c) liking neither sex (oh yeah, Asexuals do count in this too.) and/or c) wanting to be a different gender than the one they were born with.
LGBT communities are a thing? Like, they all live together in like communities or stuff? Or am I simply misunderstanding the way you used the word?In truth if we take all these people who do harm and spread hate with bigoted ideals out of the equation and have LGBT live in nice, accepting and caring communities that don't attack or dehumanize them for being who they wish to be, there would literally be little to no difference between someone who is gay and someone who is straight other than who they are sleeping with.
Honestly, I take everything as personal bias, and I grind it down until I find a reason not to think it is.I think the main problem of this issue isn't really your mindset more so than the source of your information, which is actually a personal bias, telling you that because someone is transgender or, god forgive, 'teh gey!' that they must be mentally ill. In truth there is little to no scientific evidence proving such and as Govangoth stated genetics do play a small role as well, but in the end everyone is normal and perfectly, mentally healthy. In fact as time passes, the more that these myths are disproved and that lgbts are all more normal than one may think.
this sort of supports that argument, because it I don't see any undeniable and objective truth to this. Its not like sticking your hand in a fire and saying "ouch, thats hot", and you having that proven like that.There is literally no liable proof that LGBTs are 'mental disorders' since this was a very long term debate between psychiatrists, scientists and more that flip-flops from saying "yes" and "no" throughout history.
I'm trying to understand. And again, I am not like, trying to be frustrated or angry about this. I don't care what people do so long as they don't use my money or make me accept it, just like weed or alcohol.I hope this post enlightened you a bit. You're seeing it as she still being a man with a mental illness and thus shouldn't be able to join. Everyone else is seeing her as an ex-man, now the woman she always wanted to be, who is completely and totally normal in every way, shape and form. The only problem that she may have was one that everyone who is LGBT faces at least once. The fear of not being accepted by friends or family, by being dehumanized for being who you wanted to be and for being harassed and attacked by people who really shouldn't give two shits what sex/gender you wish to be or sleep with.
It's hard to say, really. There's merit to both the idea of self-acceptance and changing yourself to be what you see yourself as. Since you mentioned the whole fat acceptance thing, that's a reasonable parallel: if you're unhappy with your body it's equally valid (from a purely emotional and self esteem standpoint, not so much health) to just accept your weight or to go exercise to try to change it. The really tricky thing is that the change option for trans people isn't as easy as hitting the gym and changing your diet: some of the basic lifestyle choices may be analogous (changing appearance, forcing yourself to do things differently until they become habit, that sort of thing), but on top of that it might require medication in the form of hormone drugs, psychiatric evaluations, and perhaps the extreme of gender reassignment surgery.Okay, I understand this. So let me ask this, and its totally just asking for opinion so you know... Opinion away:
Is it better to try to get someone to accept and learn to love themselves (I guess similar to radical self love that people in the "bigger" people communities), or should they try to change themselves physically?
I mean, people can do whatever, so long as they don't make me accept it or pay for it. Just like smoking or drinking, in my opinion.
Thats why I like Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner. He said its how he is and he doesn't care of people accept him or not.
Well here's the thing: trans people, especially those for whom it is severe enough to classify as a disorder, might have that level of freak out and/or disgust about their body whenever they look in the mirror. That whole "omg this isn't right, this is fucked up, shit this needs to change" thought process is a large part of the driving force behind trans people going for the surgery option. Like that's what being transgender is all about: you feel like your body does not match the gender you identify as. I would posit that a more likely reaction to a post-surgery wake up and checking out the new goods under the hood would be a happy one along the lines of "it's finally right omg this is great."I guess that makes sense. I would (again, just opinion) think that waking up and looking at yourself in the mirror after changing your.. "plumbing", might drive someone to suicide more than others just being an asshole. People are assholes about everything, so I don't understand why transgendered people would be more susceptible to suicide. Again, that's just me.
communityLGBT communities are a thing? Like, they all live together in like communities or stuff? Or am I simply misunderstanding the way you used the word?
Yeah, but I don't think that "radical" self love of an unhealthy body is actually the right thing. (People can do what they want), but that doesn't mean you are helping yourself any.It's hard to say, really. There's merit to both the idea of self-acceptance and changing yourself to be what you see yourself as. Since you mentioned the whole fat acceptance thing, that's a reasonable parallel: if you're unhappy with your body it's equally valid (from a purely emotional and self esteem standpoint, not so much health) to just accept your weight or to go exercise to try to change it. The really tricky thing is that the change option for trans people isn't as easy as hitting the gym and changing your diet: some of the basic lifestyle choices may be analogous (changing appearance, forcing yourself to do things differently until they become habit, that sort of thing), but on top of that it might require medication in the form of hormone drugs, psychiatric evaluations, and perhaps the extreme of gender reassignment surgery.
I got called a racist, homophobic bigot for even suggesting this, on multiple occasions. Kind of frustrating when you generally feel that this is a legitimate and good option...possibly with psychiatric aid,
Yeah, but once you take that step, (and you really are only doing so much...) you CANT go back. I think that would be far worse. We all know that cutting something where your "Mustang" used to be doesn't compare to the pleasure you would feel otherwise. And I don't even know what options females have, and I don't think I want to.Well here's the thing: trans people, especially those for whom it is severe enough to classify as a disorder, might have that level of freak out and/or disgust about their body whenever they look in the mirror. That whole "omg this isn't right, this is fucked up, shit this needs to change" thought process is a large part of the driving force behind trans people going for the surgery option. Like that's what being transgender is all about: you feel like your body does not match the gender you identify as. I would posit that a more likely reaction to a post-surgery wake up and checking out the new goods under the hood would be a happy one along the lines of "it's finally right omg this is great."
I wont even attempt to compare peoples emotions/experiences from one thing (like trans) to another (like losing a loved one).Also, people are assholes about everything, yeah, but consider the extra shit a trans person goes through compared to a normal person.
Yeah, I have some pretty serious depression and self-loathing as well. My neck my never be the same again after my car accident, but I'm not trying to deny my spine because its not the way I want it... Assuming that that is a fair comparison.People with all sorts of other body image problems also have higher suicide rates than the population average because the depression and self-loathing that kind of thing can generate will definitely fuck with someone's head.
I don't think that people in general hate trans people. I think they don't understand, that the idea is absurd (example, how it maybe seem absurd to a Socialist that Capitalizm might work, or that a Buddist finding Islam absurd.). Those examples wouldn't be considered "hateful". I don't understand the trans thing, and in my mind it is an absurd thought.. But that doesn't mean they can't do what they are doing.Then there's also the indirect hate that has a sort of splash effect: every time a trans person sees others saying those kind of horrible things about another trans person, they can get what you might call an echo of that hate. They know that the people saying "kill yourself tranny scum" would say the same to them, that the hate would be directed at them just for a facet of their life that they had no control over, and that can also fuck someone up. It's not a matter of trans people being like weak or naturally predisposed toward suicide, it's a matter of them having far more potential psychological punches aimed their way that might do some lasting damage.
I understand this, but being attracted to a certain sex (or gender) is different from wanting to be a certain sex (or gender). One has to do with physical feelings (far as I can tell) and the other is simply how you feel about your body. I think the arguments for who you love vs what you feel you are are different.
This is only half true. While you were brought up in a more accepting family, and while there is a major improvements in our society that proves that progress has been made since the early 2000s in both society's acceptance, understanding and the scientific research that is placed forth in showing more and more that LGBTs are normal people, there is still a lot of discrimination and bullying because of it. So yes, while it is much better than it was in the past it is still an issue and acting like it isn't existent is a rather dangerous attitude over it in itself.I think I see an unfair generalization here. My parents (and myself) are "Mormons", as everyone else dubs us, and I am WAAAY into my own sex. I don't really get shit from them (lol, or myself.). I think to say "ALL of whom harass" is unfair.
In fact, I read something that talked about how Christians were starting to become cool with the whole "Gay Marriage" thing (or whatever they call it now), and that the only reason they got pissed off was because of the WAY it was passed, and not WHAT was passed.
Like I said, I'm into my own sex, but I know the way they came to that ruling was bullshit.
LGBT communities are a thing? Like, they all live together in like communities or stuff? Or am I simply misunderstanding the way you used the word?
I won't lie that you completely lost me here. I do not necessarily recall what you're talking about in this moment so I do hope you can clarify more on the context of this quote. Thanks.Honestly, I take everything as personal bias, and I grind it down until I find a reason not to think it is.
In this instance, why wouldn't this guy want to support doctors? If he simply said "yeah, go get your surgery!", he would be giving people the clarification that "yes, this is something you should make doctors richer by doing!"
I think both sides of this particular debate are formed from bias,
To clarify, as my previous sources may show, the main reason things were so 'flip-floppy' when it comes to LGBT and mental illnesses is because of the bias in the past, things were far less advanced, and that LGBT were considered ANYTHING but normal. As time progressed progress was slowly made until today where evidence supports the fact that LGBTs for the most part are not mentally ill. Of course though, Transgenders are still considered 'iffy' on the subject, as Jorick pointed out, but in general they are still very capable in functioning perfectly fine in society and in the end, that is really all that matters.this sort of supports that argument, because it I don't see any undeniable and objective truth to this. Its not like sticking your hand in a fire and saying "ouch, thats hot", and you having that proven like that.
Good, I'm glad to hear you are relatively open minded and wish to understand more on why the overall populace think the way they do.I'm trying to understand. And again, I am not like, trying to be frustrated or angry about this. I don't care what people do so long as they don't use my money or make me accept it, just like weed or alcohol.
And I do appreciate you taking the time to write this out for me, I will look through those sources.
I think it's an open forum and they should be allowed to have civil discussion about modern affairs without worry of harassment and fear of reprisal. That and he'd have to know who to ask instead of sending a mass private group message to the hundred or so general chat posters.@Kakumei
I think maybe you should stop starting threads as these because it seems to lead down the drain. If you have questions maybe use the pm system.
There is a difference between identifying as a gender that doesn't match your sex and claiming to have sex organs that one doesn't have.And I don't buy the "if you think something different you are something different" mentality. How does that work? Because if I think I had 3 dicks, I wouldn't. The extent of that to me would be pretending with three dildos or something.
Eh, honestly, as stupid as it might be for someone to want to remain horribly unhealthy or cripple themselves or whatever, it's their body to do with as they please. Genitals are a different matter than, say, an arm or a leg though. Losing a limb or similar major crippling alteration would drastically affect someone's ability to live their life, perhaps make them unable to work and thus perhaps need to have their expenses paid for by disability benefits, and that's a bit of a conundrum. Altering genitals will really only fuck with their ability to procreate (and that's not even a sure thing), and we already have less invasive optional surgeries that can do that for both men and women, so we've already decided that it's ethically fine. The question to ask is not "is it okay for someone to surgically alter their body," but rather what will cause more long term harm and have a higher likelihood of severe harm: the disorder that makes them want to radically alter their body, or going through with the surgery? Generally it looks like chopping off a limb is still pretty crazy, but gender reassignment surgery is gaining support amongst psychiatric and medical practitioners, so who knows how that coin will land in the end.Yeah, but I don't think that "radical" self love of an unhealthy body is actually the right thing. (People can do what they want), but that doesn't mean you are helping yourself any.
I think another fair (maybe better) analogy would be "trans-abled" people. Should someone get an arm cut off because they think it shouldn't be apart of them? How is that different when your body parts in question are genitalia and the like? I simply cannot square that logic.
So what? Lots of things are permanent changes. Should we prevent people from moving because they might end up hating their house? Should we prevent people from entering high stress careers because it might negatively impact their life? "But it's irreversible" is not a valid reason to oppose the surgery, imo, it's just a good argument for taking time and making sure it's what you really want before going through with it.Yeah, but once you take that step, (and you really are only doing so much...) you CANT go back. I think that would be far worse. We all know that cutting something where your "Mustang" used to be doesn't compare to the pleasure you would feel otherwise. And I don't even know what options females have, and I don't think I want to.
Yep, that's pretty much my whole argument. People handle emotions differently, they react to various experiences differently, so trying to judge what someone should or shouldn't be able to handle is kinda crappy. Trans people simply have some more obvious emotional vulnerabilities than the average person who is comfortable with their gender, thus it follows logically that they're more likely to have major negative emotional reactions.I wont even attempt to compare peoples emotions/experiences from one thing (like trans) to another (like losing a loved one).
All of that is too different and I could never compare peoples feelings or experiences.
That's not a fair comparison at all. A sudden unexpected injury with permanent effects that isn't something people will likely mock and harass you for is different from growing up with something that is rather confusing and hard to deal with plus might attract levels up hate up to and including murderous rage.Yeah, I have some pretty serious depression and self-loathing as well. My neck my never be the same again after my car accident, but I'm not trying to deny my spine because its not the way I want it... Assuming that that is a fair comparison.
It always seems to me that in any other case, its usually agreed that some "radical" change to something is not the right way to go about things, except in the instance of transgenderedism (is that right?).
Conscious hate on the part of someone making negative comments isn't required for someone to interpret their statements as being driven by hate. Someone who is pro-capitalism could see a socialist's comments about everything wrong with capitalism as being driven by hate. A Muslim could take any criticism of their religion, no matter how minor, as hate from the hypothetical Buddhist. Perception matters more than intent when it comes to how statements actually affect people.I don't think that people in general hate trans people. I think they don't understand, that the idea is absurd (example, how it maybe seem absurd to a Socialist that Capitalizm might work, or that a Buddist finding Islam absurd.). Those examples wouldn't be considered "hateful". I don't understand the trans thing, and in my mind it is an absurd thought.. But that doesn't mean they can't do what they are doing.