Confusion about Woman of the Year?

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it represents how we're all special butterflies inside
I need to call terminix then. XD

Ah, I don't really feel like I am male or female. Or maybe I feel a bit of both.

I dunno, I never really cared enough to think about it like that. These are very distinctly "Western" ideas.
 
In Japan its just.. Boy and Girl. The way you guys have been describing gender is not really a thing there... So its not like I have a lot of experience with it.

I'm a male, who according to doctors, has a very high level of estrogen. When I cross dress, I am typically considered a otokonoko which translates literally to "male daughter", but also is used as slang to mean like er... A trap. Anyway, because of that high estrogen, I had to 'bind' my chest a stuff when I was younger. Which was embarrassing.

But the concept of "being" something based on how I feel is just lost on me, probably because of that culture. You are pretty much identified by biological sex and your sexuality.. Which is also somewhat lost on Japanese.
I understand that you're unfamiliar with this, and I'm not trying to fault you for that. I'm just trying to make everything as simple as possible, so that it's easier to understand.

Trans simply means that one's sex and gender are different. Crossdressing does not imply this, as it only means wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. If you're crossdressing, but you still consider yourself to be the same gender as your sex, and not the gender of your clothes? Then you aren't trans.

As for whether or not that makes you trans, well, Brovo summed it up pretty well. Your hormone levels and physical appearance are irrelevant in regards to what gender you say that you are, just as much as one's biological sex is irrelevant in regards to what one's gender is.
 
I need to call terminix then. XD

Ah, I don't really feel like I am male or female. Or maybe I feel a bit of both.

I dunno, I never really cared enough to think about it like that. These are very distinctly "Western" ideas.
It's alright if you feel a bit unsure, or feel like your gender is not strictly male or female. There's terminology for just about every possible gender identity under the sun, but, I don't know if it would be wise to jump straight into that mess of lexicon just yet. XD

As I always tell people who might be questioning their gender or sexuality: Don't worry too much about labels. Just focus on understanding your own feelings, first and foremost. That's the important part.

It's just really important to understand that sex and gender are separate concepts, and that one's gender exists independently of their sex. Your gender is whatever feels right to you, regardless of how your body is built.

And, since you've brought it up: non-binary (not being strictly male or female) is certainly a thing that exists with a whole bunch of other terminology wrapped up inside it. The words aren't really the important thing, though -- just letting you know that it's ok to have a gender identity that falls outside those two options.
 
Yeah, I get that. I don't really feel like my mind and body are at odds with each other either. But I don't really know if that plays into the whole gender thing.

I know that gender and sex is different (thought, I think thats a relatively knew concept), but I don't think I take gender as seriously as I do sex. And that's not me trying to be mean or anything. I just don't see it as er... as important? Sorry, I don't think I have my sentence structure right in that last sentence. Hopefully it makes sense...
 
Yeah, I get that. I don't really feel like my mind and body are at odds with each other either. But I don't really know if that plays into the whole gender thing.

I know that gender and sex is different (thought, I think thats a relatively knew concept), but I don't think I take gender as seriously as I do sex. And that's not me trying to be mean or anything. I just don't see it as er... as important? Sorry, I don't think I have my sentence structure right in that last sentence. Hopefully it makes sense...

I think I get what you're trying to say, but, I mean, in terms of how people see themselves, I'd say that gender is really more important than sex. After all, gender is the reason why someone can say "I'm a man" even if they don't have male sex organs. Because it doesn't matter as much that they don't have said attributes -- they are a man if they say they are. Which means they see themselves as being male and want others to see them that way, too. Sex just refers to a body, not who someone is inside.

If you feel that there's no disconnect between your sex and gender, then there's a good chance that you're cis and therefore identify with your biological sex (not saying that's a guarantee, though, so feel free to look into this more, yourself). That could explain why you might be having a hard time seeing gender as so separate from sex, because, if you're cis, then you are your biological sex, no questions asked -- it's the same reasoning as to why a cis girl would say "I'm a girl" without even needing to consider any alternative, like it would be silly to think of anything else.

Sorry, I feel like I'm getting rambly. Hopefully that all made sense, still.
 
You are probably making more sense than I am understanding it. I have been awake for 30... no 31 hours now for reasons. But when I get good rest, I'll make sure to read through all of this again to see if anything more clicks or I at least understand where you and others are coming from.
 
You are probably making more sense than I am understanding it. I have been awake for 30... no 31 hours now for reasons. But when I get good rest, I'll make sure to read through all of this again to see if anything more clicks or I at least understand where you and others are coming from.
XD That sounds like a good idea.
 
XD That sounds like a good idea.
I'm about do be like the person in your signature. Except you know... Not on a computer monitor. LOL
 
Ok, I'll admit I didn't fully read the entire thread.
But I've seen enough there's two main things I want to address here.

Other's have already gone into incredible detail here, so I'll be brief.

There's Gender Identity, where one feel's/identifies as in one's mind.
And there's Biological Sex, which being blunt/crude is your genitalia.

Now I don't know Caitlyn's progress of the sex operation so far.
But I know her Gender most definitely falls under female, which is probably what made her a candidate for the Magazine.
And what made her win was probably the media attention she got about it, and the fact it's a generally shitty article that just grabs whatever they can for views.


Ok, @Kakumei I honestly don't think you've done anything wrong here rather than have some poor wording.
So I was originally just going to PM you this as a way to help you out... But as I got thinking this also involves another element, which I think some others need to hear.

Thanks @Utsuho for already getting started on that front.

Firstly, let's look at the wording of your OP.

"I mean, I get he wants to be a she, and has work... But even if he gets his twig and berries removed, isn't he still a guy?"

Now I get you were just confused and looking to ask questions (and thankfully some other's realized that too) but the wording here also seemed rather... careless.
The way you simply referred to what is a long and hard operation as "gets his twig and berries removed" gives the impression your trivializing/down-playing it, which would get some people defensive about the topic.
Now, were they right to just jump in here and go "Oh boy! Shit Thread time!"? No, they weren't and I'll be getting to that later. However, some more... respectful/professional wording might have helped you avoid the confusion.

That, and remember how earlier you mentioned that you had to be told to stop posting in Debate Threads?
That's a big indicator that you're already building a reputation for yourself, a reputation of being someone who simply start argument's/fights.
And when you get this reputation you need to be even more careful with your wording, because now people are expecting/waiting for you to start something.

Now note, part of the reason I'm saying this is because back at the Guild (The site I came to Iwaku from) this was me.
I had the trend to entering a ton of debate threads, and aiming to have conversation for the sake of curiousity and exposing myself to new viewpoints.
However, my execution of it was poor. People didn't receive my actual intentions, but rather received it as "Gwazi's trying to pick a fight".
This very quickly started a downward spiral of people expecting me to pick a fight, then my poor delivery reinforcing that belief, causing an argument, worsening the reputation and repeat.
And back then, there was no one who bothered talking to me and saying "Look, people are starting to get a bad idea. I'm willing to help you with a better approach" until it was too late.
And the way they (I won't disclaim who unless they want me to) worded it was:

"You got a papercut. And papercuts fucking hurt - we all know this. But where most people would just be like "oh well" and slap a bandaid on it, you made sure to constantly irritate that cut so that the blood never really clotted properly and then you started really digging deep into your flesh and peeling your skin off and now I think that finger might need to be amputated".

Basically what I'm saying is, pay attention to the reputation, and take care not to peel at that paper cut.
By all mean's ask questions and talk with people, but you need to consider your wording carefully when in such a situation.

Ok, now to get onto "other elements".

You people ever hear of the saying "It takes two to start a fight"?
Well, coming into the thread and contributing nothing other than saying shit's being started or the thread is going to be closed isn't helping.
Especially when you're a staff member and your responsibility to keep the site civil and in order, not to help stir the pot.

Annoyed by Kakumei? Fine, that's your right.
Don't like Kakumei? Fine, that's also your right.
Find yourself pulling hairs at his opinions? Fine, that's your right as well.

But as mature and responsible adults take the high road and just don't say anything.
If what Kakumei, or anyone else for that matter is actually starting a fire it will either spread on it's own or be snuffed out from a lack of attention.
You contribute nothing by simply feeding the flame, in fact all you do by doing so is make the situation worse.
And does anyone here actually want Iwaku to be a place where threads constantly break out into arguments and get locked?
It doesn't have to be, that's going to require effort on everyone's part to make true. Don't start the arguments, don't retaliate to the arguments.

Lastly, we're all human and we all make mistakes.
Sometime's these mistakes make a bad first impression on people.
I'm sure everyone here has been victim of that, and didn't like how they were treated in the future because of that.
Remember that you're human too, and as a result are also susceptible to falling for first impressions of others.
Be mindful of that, remember individuals are complex creature's and there's more to them than first meet's the eye.

Now I realize this was actually a minority in this thread. Most people here actually behaved insanely well, which is amazing.
But there were still some who were guilty of it here, and I've seen this pop up in other threads too. So I figured something had to be said.

Thanks for reading.
 
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I honestly don't think you've done anything wrong here rather than have some poor wording.
English isn't exactly my express language.

Now I get you were just confused and looking to ask questions (and thankfully some other's realized that too) but the wording here also seemed rather... careless.
The way you simply referred to what is a long and hard operation as "gets his twig and berries removed" gives the impression your trivializing/down-playing it, which would get some people defensive about the topic.
Now, were they right to just jump in here and go "Oh boy! Shit Thread time!"? No, they weren't and I'll be getting to that later. However, some more... respectful/professional wording might have helped you avoid the confusion.
Well I don't believe in beating around the blush. Yeah, its a blunt question and blunt wording. I'm culturally mixed, and my Japanese "side" when it comes to this PC-ish behavior simply lines up with putting things bluntly.

Do you want real answers? Ask real questions. I did the best way I could to convey what I understood on the topic, and I got some serious answers, and if nothing else, I learned how the other side thinks on this subject.

Can anyone here really understand what I believe or where I am coming from? I mean, beside "ignorant Christian bigot?"

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I think people who believe in "diversity" really miss the point. There is only one type of diversity that I think REALLY matters-

The diversity of thought.

I am sick and tired of people who act like they are tolerant of other peoples views or opinions, but then are shocked and offended by people for having different opinions and chalk it up to "bigotry".

Which... Is being biggoted in its own right.

But that was just a rant. People act like I am trying to start shit. I want to understand opposing or different views, I don't shut others down by saying they are stupid or ignorant. I find out WHY they think that way.
 
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English isn't exactly my express language.
Noted.

Though not everyone is going to be understanding.
Which means some people are still going to attempt to stir the pot if they see an opening.
Well I don't believe in beating around the blush. Yeah, its a blunt question and blunt wording. I'm culturally mixed, and my Japanese "side" when it comes to this PC-ish behavior simply lines up with putting things bluntly.

Do you want real answers? Ask real questions. I did the best way I could to convey what I understood on the topic, and I got some serious answers, and if nothing else, I learned how the other side thinks on this subject.

Can anyone here really understand what I believe or where I am coming from? I mean, beside "ignorant Christian bigot?"
It's not a matter of being blunt that's the problem.


The problem is wording it in a manner that seems to be trivialize it.
For example (this isn't serious by the way):

"So because of your ching chang you're fine with upsetting people?".

That was blunt.
But it was also a personal attack, and trivalized/mocked the language by referring to it as a racist term rather than the name of the language.
Much like how who referred to the operation as twigs and berries.

Meanwhile what I could have said was:

"So because English is your second language you're not concerned about your wording?".

Still Blunt, but it removes the personal attacks and trivialization of matters.
 
Yeah, but I didn't personally attack anyone.
 
It could have been received that way by what you seemed to be trivializing though.
 
Even if that were true, trivializing something doesn't make it a personal insult.

And just because another person takes something as a personal attack or "is offended", doesn't make that my intention. So it isn't on me.
 
It's on both of you for setting it up and reacting to it that way.

Ok, I'm going to stop de-railing the thread now.
This starting to turn into a debate itself, which was the completely opposite reason for my post.
 
It's on both of you for setting it up
I'm not setting up anything. I am asking a question. Just because someone doesn't like the way its set up isn't on me, or anyone. It's not like I walked out and punched someone in the face. I asked a simple question from my own view point.

As was said earlier, if you don't like that view point, don't comment. YOU (general you, not personally you) don't have to comment. And, you don't have to get offended. That's a CHOICE.
 
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Okay I noticed that no one has corrected you on something...

Caitlyn Jenner is a "she."

You have corrected people for calling you a he so out of all people, I would like to think you would be the most self aware and respectful in regards to how she identifies herself.

Bruce Jenner has been cross dressing since he was a child, taking hormones on and off before finally making steps towards that change. Granted, as far as anyone knows she still has a penis however she is officially/legally known as Caitlyn Jenner, a woman.

I know that you don't get why...anyone has a different mindset but you do need to be a little more open minded in regards to everyone is different on the inside and out.

Transgenders are high in suicide rates because they are usually thrown to the streets because of how they are and resort to drugs, prostitution and more. Or they feel like they are completely alone and having no one to talk to about these kinds of things can lead a person through mental breakdowns. Some of us can shrug off bullying, others cannot. There's a reason they have made cyber bullying into a crime. Kids are HORRIBLE people, who say the cruelest things and do terrible things when together. If anyone is constantly told you're a freak of nature, every day or you should just die, it can change your mind set and eventually you can start to believe these things, especially if you don't have a support system. This can lead you to feel the world is better without "some freak" and maybe even take your life as a result.

Caitlyn Jenner does deserve this, as much as it pains me to say it...she has brought the spotlight to transgender people and their struggle of being judged and told what they should and should not do. I mean...who's business is it? Unless you're in a relationship with that person who is or has transitioned, it's not our business.

And tbh, your opening post kind of came off as rude and insensitive towards transgenders. When you write topics like this, you have to be a little more careful and considerate with what and how you say things because I was just like...what the fuck? At first lol. Especially in this community where we love our LGBT community.

THAT'S ALL!
 
Caitlyn Jenner is a "she."
Caitlyn Jenner said he doesn't expect or demand anyone to call him a she and doesn't mind that they do or don't. Which is why I like him so much. He doesn't want the entirety of society to conform to him. He believes exactly in what I do, "Live and Let Live".

I know that you don't get why...anyone has a different mindset but you do need to be a little more open minded in regards to everyone is different on the inside and out.
If I need to be a little more open minded that people are different on the inside and out, then you need to be open minded that some people will always continue to only use male and female for people based on their biology and nothing more. What you want is for everyone to conform to something that is really only a thing in certain western countries, and very divided about in those countries.

I hate when people talk about open mindedness. They only use it to tell people they should only think like you do, and not realize that open mindedness is a two way street.

Transgenders are high in suicide rates because they are usually thrown to the streets because of how they are and resort to drugs, prostitution and more. Or they feel like they are completely alone and having no one to talk to about these kinds of things can lead a person through mental breakdowns. Some of us can shrug off bullying, others cannot. There's a reason they have made cyber bullying into a crime. Kids are HORRIBLE people, who say the cruelest things and do terrible things when together. If anyone is constantly told you're a freak of nature, every day or you should just die, it can change your mind set and eventually you can start to believe these things, especially if you don't have a support system. This can lead you to feel the world is better without "some freak" and maybe even take your life as a result.
As was explained earlier, there is no evidence of why the transgendered community has such a high suicide rate. I understand the argument, but it there is no real information out there to back this up.

And tbh, your opening post kind of came off as rude and insensitive towards transgenders.
It wasn't meant to be, BUT its not my fault that society is overly sensitive.

When you write topics like this, you have to be a little more careful and considerate with what and how you say things
Not really. And I feel like I had a better discussion with the people who realized it was series.

I was just like...what the fuck? At first lol. Especially in this community where we love our LGBT community.
Because I somehow hate lgbt people? I guess I hate myself then.

You have corrected people for calling you a he so out of all people,
I was teasing. I'm not really either. But I don't give a crap what people refer to me as.

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I learned these things long ago, through much harder lessons.

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If I started naming off things that offended me on the internet or even this site, and it had to be banned, holy shit would they be hilariously
empty and board.

but instead of getting up in arms or trying to advocate a ban legally/culturally, I smile and move on.
 
Yo @Kakumei I'm incredibly tired and dazed right now and probably won't be able to form sentences well but you just brought up an argument that annoys the crap out'a me so I'mma make this quick:

If you say you support free speech and that anyone can speak their mind... that means that, if you say something that other people find offensive, they have the right to tell you that it's offensive.

Because that is also a two-way street.

And what Cosmos definitely did bring up is the way in which not referring to a trans person by their gender can be offensive and harmful, and that you should be more careful with what you say because there can be consequences. That would also be protected under free speech.

Sure, you could say the most dickish and insensitive things you want, if you really want to, and you could argue that that falls under free speech... but so is everyone else's replies about your words being dickish and insensitive.

B'sides, we ain't talking about some mod editing words out of your post or nothin' -- you know, the sort of censorship that free speech is supposed to refer to -- just fellow members also speaking our minds and telling you what we think about what you have to say.

ALSO all of this is disregarding the fact that "free speech" is not only an American thing that doesn't really apply to the Internet, but also that I'm pretty sure even the rules of Iwaku say that free speech isn't really a thing here and that the staff can censor you if they feel the need.

ALSO even then, free speech refers to the government not being able to censor you... not fellow people. Fellow people still have the right to say that your words are offensive if they feel that is the case, just as you would have the right to say potentially offensive things in the first place.

BUT EVEN IF WE DISREGARD THAT, and say for sake of discussion that free speech does apply in this context... then yeah, my point still stands.

If you say that you should have the right to say whatever you want, then other people should have the right to say whatever they want in response to that.

And if you get worked up about anyone saying that your words are offensive, then, well... maybe the internet isn't the place for you, either, cuz there's plenty of that going around, too.

Two. Way. Street.

*mic drop*

*crawls into bed*

Edit: ALSO I'm not trying to call your words "dickish" as I said before -- that was just for sake of example, and, well, factoring in the fact that people could interpret them that way.
 
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