Confusion about Woman of the Year?

[Kakumei]

Problem is people are telling me to censor myself.

I simply wont do it.

I'm just saying that telling me to do so is a waste of time.

Especially when there is not intent to offended. Its not on me if its taken that way.

 

[Brovo]

Also y'all are on a privately owned message board. Y'all only have as much free speech as the administration happens to give you. So, you know, invoke free speech all you want, it's completely meaningless here.

 

[Kagayours]

Problem is people are telling me to censor myself.

I simply wont do it.

I'm just saying that telling me to do so is a waste of time.

Especially when there is not intent to offended. Its not on me if its taken that way.

Yeah, but see, here's the thing:

None of us ordinary members have the power to censor you.

Some members here have told you to use feminine pronouns for Jenner because they feel that that is the right thing to do and that not referring to trans people by their preferred pronouns can be offensive and harmful. No one has the power to make you do that, though. Therefore, they're just saying things that you don't have to do anything with, but, you know -- they have the right to say it, just like you have the right to say things that they say shouldn't be said.

Even ignoring the fact that free speech is meaningless in this particular context, as Brovo pointed out, people who tell you that your words are offensive aren't censoring you because they do not have that power. Philosophies aside, we simply have no way to edit your posts or truly stop you from saying anything, so... yeah.

At which point, people telling you that certain things are potentially offensive or even telling you not to say those things at all is still just an opinion that those people have the right to share.

If you have the right to say whatever you want, then other people have the right to say whatever they want about the thing that you said, including saying that they think it's offensive or w/e.

It really doesn't matter whether or not you think it's something reasonable to be offended over; that's a completely different discussion entirely. Point is, if you're going to go with the "free speech! I can say whatever I want!!" defense, then you should know that other people can also say whatever they want, including saying that they feel offended or that other people might be offended.

There's no reason why such a defense -- again, even disregarding the fact that it's completely irrelevant on a site like this -- should only go one-way. Especially since saying that people shouldn't cry "it's offensive!!" basically means that you're dictating what they can/can't say just as much as they're dictating that for you -- because neither you nor them actually has the power to censor anyone, so you're both just sharing opinions at that point -- opinions that both parties would have the "right" to speak.

 

[Kakumei]

You realize none of this has to do with Iwaku and is a "in general" argument, right?

 

[Kagayours]

You realize none of this has to do with Iwaku and is a "in general" argument, right?

And I put most of what I said in a "general" context, but, you know, it's a helpful thing to remember -- especially since a lot of people do seem to be convinced that their "free speech" applies everywhere, even on sites like these, when... it really doesn't.

Also, even if we are getting into a discussion about free speech "in general", it still started with you saying that other people shouldn't tell you what you could or could not say... on Iwaku... referring to a discussion that was happening on Iwaku...

So, if you're going to defend your "free speech" on a place like Iwaku, then, well...

Like I said, most of what I said does still refer to free speech "in general", since I see this brought up quite often even in offline American contexts where free speech actually does legally apply, so I'd gladly continue that discussion, but, you know... realizing that free speech technically doesn't apply here is a good thing to keep in mind.

 

[Kakumei]

It really doesn't matter whether or not you think it's something reasonable to be offended over; that's a completely different discussion entirely. Point is, if you're going to go with the "free speech! I can say whatever I want!!" defense, then you should know that other people can also say whatever they want, including saying that they feel offended or that other people might be offended.

I know people can say whatever they want in turn to what I say.

The point I am making is that it isn't going to happen if I don't want to.

And, I am not.

------

Jenner doesn't care what pronouns people use to address him/her.

BECAUSE, he doesn't believe (not on Iwaku, IN REAL LIFE) that people should be told how to address him.

I don't care if people call me him or her. Because I don't believe in controlling the language.

----

That's all I have to say.

 

[Darker Than Grey]

Damn. Can't everyone just agree to disagree?

 

[Melon]

 

[Mid]

Yo @Kakumei I'm incredibly tired and dazed right now and probably won't be able to form sentences well but you just brought up an argument that annoys the crap out'a me so I'mma make this quick:

If you say you support free speech and that anyone can speak their mind... that means that, if you say something that other people find offensive, they have the right to tell you that it's offensive.

Because that is also a two-way street.

And what Cosmos definitely did bring up is the way in which not referring to a trans person by their gender can be offensive and harmful, and that you should be more careful with what you say because there can be consequences. That would also be protected under free speech.

Sure, you could say the most dickish and insensitive things you want, if you really want to, and you could argue that that falls under free speech... but so is everyone else's replies about your words being dickish and insensitive.

B'sides, we ain't talking about some mod editing words out of your post or nothin' -- you know, the sort of censorship that free speech is supposed to refer to -- just fellow members also speaking our minds and telling you what we think about what you have to say.

ALSO all of this is disregarding the fact that "free speech" is not only an American thing that doesn't really apply to the Internet, but also that I'm pretty sure even the rules of Iwaku say that free speech isn't really a thing here and that the staff can censor you if they feel the need.

ALSO even then, free speech refers to the government not being able to censor you... not fellow people. Fellow people still have the right to say that your words are offensive if they feel that is the case, just as you would have the right to say potentially offensive things in the first place.

BUT EVEN IF WE DISREGARD THAT, and say for sake of discussion that free speech does apply in this context... then yeah, my point still stands.

If you say that you should have the right to say whatever you want, then other people should have the right to say whatever they want in response to that.

And if you get worked up about anyone saying that your words are offensive, then, well... maybe the internet isn't the place for you, either, cuz there's plenty of that going around, too.

Two. Way. Street.

*mic drop*

*crawls into bed*

Edit: ALSO I'm not trying to call your words "dickish" as I said before -- that was just for sake of example, and, well, factoring in the fact that people could interpret them that way.

Thank you, Kaga-kun. That was very kind of you to say but you really don't have to continue arguing your point. When he decided to reply in a hostile manner and attempt to weakly insult me, it just showed me that I cannot engage these kinds of discussions with him because I think I have grown to old to argue points with teenagers who see things their way, stubbornly (or older folk for that matter). I just think he took what I said and went way left with it in a negative way rather than a positive one so.../Kanye shrug

I ain't mad about it nor worried about it because I am not directly effected by it but I am aware of how it effects the people around me so...eh.

Also, I watched I am Cait and what I will say is, it was pretty informative on the transgender community however Cait I'd still boring as hell D: Thank god it was only one season lol.

 

[Kagayours]

Thank you, Kaga-kun. That was very kind of you to say but you really don't have to continue arguing your point. When he decided to reply in a hostile manner and attempt to weakly insult me, it just showed me that I cannot engage these kinds of discussions with him because I think I have grown to old to argue points with teenagers who see things their way, stubbornly (or older folk for that matter). I just think he took what I said and went way left with it in a negative way rather than a positive one so.../Kanye shrug

I ain't mad about it nor worried about it because I am not directly effected by it but I am aware of how it effects the people around me so...eh.

Also, I watched I am Cait and what I will say is, it was pretty informative on the transgender community however Cait I'd still boring as hell D: Thank god it was only one season lol.

Well, I mean, I'm glad you're not mad -- but I brought it up not just to defend you but also just hearing the "you can't tell me what to say because free speech!!" argument bothers me for a bunch of reasons, and I felt those things should be addressed. XD

We all cool now though, sooo.

 

[Kakumei]

Thank you, Kaga-kun. That was very kind of you to say but you really don't have to continue arguing your point. When he decided to reply in a hostile manner and attempt to weakly insult me

This is the first time I have been legitimately mad at someone.

I didn't reply hostile NOR was I trying to insult you. I simply tried to convey a different point of view.

This is ridiculous.

 

[TheGreyWarden]

I know people can say whatever they want in turn to what I say.

The point I am making is that it isn't going to happen if I don't want to.

The words of a true conservative standing up for his/her right to speak!!!!1!!1*

Anyway, you all should stop bitching at each other before Grumpy has to clear this mess up. Man, does this shit happen often on Iwaku?

*By the way, I was joking so please don't get upset about it and yell 'muy rights!' at me.

 

[Mid]

Well, I mean, I'm glad you're not mad -- but I brought it up not just to defend you but also just hearing the "you can't tell me what to say because free speech!!" argument bothers me for a bunch of reasons, and I felt those things should be addressed. XD

We all cool now though, sooo.

Oh I know, lolol. I get it but...now I want some pie xD

 

[Kagayours]

The words of a true conservative standing up for his/her right to speak!!!!1!!1*

Anyway, you all should stop bitching at each other before Grumpy has to clear this mess up. Man, does this shit happen often on Iwaku?

*By the way, I was joking so please don't get upset about it and yell 'muy rights!' at me.

I wasn't trying to get hostile...

I admit I was feeling pretty out-of-it when I first called Kakumei out on the whole free speech deal, so I apologize if my wording was a bit thoughtless in that regard, but uh...

Yeah, I'd say most of this thread has been pretty civil so far. *shrugga-shrug-shrug*

Edit: Ok yeah I see how it's getting bad now...

 

[Kakumei]

This is the first time I have been legitimately mad at someone.

I didn't reply hostile NOR was I trying to insult you. I simply tried to convey a different point of view.

This is ridiculous.

Point proven how "not offending someone" only applies to someone you don't have a personal bias against, as I clearly pointed out I wasn't hostile or trying to insult you and you blatantly ignored me.

The words of a true conservative standing up for his/her right to speak!!!!1!!1*

Libertarian. If you are going to insult someone on their political stance, might want to be accurate on them.

Anyway, you all should stop bitching at each other before Grumpy has to clear this mess up.

I'd go ahead and like him too.

Because I am just being flatly bullshitted now.

 

[Hana]

@Kaga-kun
@Cosmos
@Kakumei

For more guidelines, check this out:

Terms of Service

Just a reminder. Everyone should read these once in a while, and I think since last week we all need to consider how we've been acting towards each other. All of us. I'll see myself out. ^^'

 

[TheGreyWarden]

Libertarian. If you are going to insult someone on their political stance, might want to be accurate on them.

*By the way, I was joking so please don't get upset about it and yell 'muy rights!' at me.

joking so please don't get upset about it and yell 'muy rights!' at me.

joking

I take it that you didn't read the rest of my post. Why do I have to work so hard to remind people of what I wrote?

This thread is becoming more like tumblr, now we just need someone to be upset and saying they are 'triggered' by this thread and then we got ourselves a post from tumblr.

 

[Falcon]

All right all
Some questions were asked
Some learning was done

. . . but now it looks like the topic is dissolving into good old fashioned mud slinging, so I'm gonna lock this thread before it gets any more derailed.