Confusion about Woman of the Year?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I feel so sorry for Grumpy.

He got rid of the debate tag, and yet shit still happens :c.
 
Then give me something that either addresses this, or is a legitimate source that has an opposing opinion of this. I'm just asking for help to understand why people think differently from me.

Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’
People are giving you proper responses and you aren't acknowledging them. :c Not gonna hold your hand through this. If you want people to treat you seriously engage with those people who are making relevant posts.

If you aren't willing to take the time to learn from other people, they aren't going to want to bother with you. Thems the breaks, kid.
 
People are giving you proper responses and you aren't acknowledging them. :c Not gonna hold your hand through this. If you want people to treat you seriously engage with those people who are making relevant posts.

If you aren't willing to take the time to learn from other people, they aren't going to want to bother with you. Thems the breaks, kid.
I read through and responded to what looked like serious relevant posts. I acknowledged and thanked them for it.

: /
 
What even is the deciding factor on whether you're a man or woman? What genitals you have? What state of mind you have? Is this what we're wasting our time with? Because I think that's stupid and kind of pointless in this day and age. Why does the mind or physical gender even matter to people so much? You can set up standards for males and females but you can bet your ass that at least half of them aren't going to fit in those narrow little brackets and we're all kind of tired of having to act and look and think a certain way because "society" dictates it's appropriate for our gender. People are complex. We're not cats and dogs and easily sorted into Box A or Box B.

This man vs woman thing is stale. Neither gender is better than the other. Neither gender is a set in stone, defined thing anymore. You can say "'Man' and 'woman' used to mean ___!" But there's the catch. Used to. You can't stop something from evolving over time. If you want to claim you're a man or a woman, good on you, but I will slap a person who goes "you can't be a man/woman because you don't ___"

Caitlyn Jenner wants to be recognized as a woman? Good on her.


And there's my rant on gender war.

Now, a discussion on whether a person deserves the title of ____ of the Year is a better topic, don't you agree? Aside from being a woman, shouldn't this award have more requirements? Like, I dunno, doing charity or some shit?
 
Behave yourselves, children. I hate having to mop up after shitshows. >:[
Then give me something that either addresses this, or is a legitimate source that has an opposing opinion of this. I'm just asking for help to understand why people think differently from me.

Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’
So that's one psychiatrist saying it's just a disorder to be treated.

Here's the official stance of the American Psychology Association, a whole big group of psychology professionals. Their guidelines say it's only a disorder if it causes distress or disability, which is pretty much the standard for any mental thing that goes against the norm: just a weird thing if it doesn't cause you problems, disorder if it causes you problems. For instance, being very happy and excited is just a thing that happens, but if it becomes a problem for you then it may be some kind of manic disorder.

The jury is still out on the ethics and efficacy of gender reassignment surgery though. More research and more data is required to make a firm judgment on whether or not it's actually a good thing, but the common stance seems to be that it should only be reserved for serious cases that would be logically classified as disorders.
 
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: Hana and Esmeray
Their guidelines say it's only a disorder if it causes distress or disability,
Disclaimer- Serious question. (Apparently I have to do this now.)

Does not being able to use your... "natural parts" somewhat of a disability? Or am I misunderstanding how its used as a term in this case?

More research and more data is required to make a firm judgment on whether or not it's actually a good thing, but the common stance seems to be that it should only be reserved for serious cases that would be logically classified as disorders.
I think I understand this. So that part about transgendered people having a higher suicide rate only applying to those that it would be considered a "disorder" for?
 
Disclaimer- Serious question. (Apparently I have to do this now.)

Does not being able to use your... "natural parts" somewhat of a disability? Or am I misunderstanding how its used as a term in this case?
Here's one definition for disability: "a physical or mental condition that limits a person's movements, senses, or activities."

If it impedes your ability to go about your life in a normal fashion, whether it's mobility or just doing whatever you want to do (within the law at least), then it can be classes as a disability. Depression could be disabling because it prevents you from having a normal functioning life. Gender identity disorder could be disabling because they can't do things as the gender they identify as, plus all those potential other disorders with a high comorbidity rate with GID. Inability to have a healthy sex life due to issues with genitalia (even simple disgust and dysphoria when seeing/using whatever you were born with, as some people with GID have) could also be considered a disability.
I think I understand this. So that part about transgendered people having a higher suicide rate only applying to those that it would be considered a "disorder" for?
Not necessarily. Even those who don't initially have any trouble with their gender stuff might end up being driven to suicide by hate and bullying from people who think they're a freak. I don't know if there's been any research done on that in specific though, so I'm just making a semi-educated guess here.
 
Then give me something that either addresses this, or is a legitimate source that has an opposing opinion of this. I'm just asking for help to understand why people think differently from me.

Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’
Well... this voids out my previous post's thoughts since it'd still technically be off-topic. Okay.

Well For starters, being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender does not mean you have a legitimate 'mental disorder.' IN FACT: There is literally no liable proof that LGBTs are 'mental disorders' since this was a very long term debate between psychiatrists, scientists and more that flip-flops from saying "yes" and "no" throughout history. Not to mention that being LGBT has little to no effect on mental health, nor does it hold any effect against one's personality that are out of the norm. Most of the shit you hear is personal bias. Studies have proven that due to how people of the LGBT community differ in personality, that being LGBT is NOT in itself a mental illness and thus can NOT be cured.

This however, if much different to a greater issue which is that LGBT communities ARE far more likely to HAVE an ACTUAL mental illness like anxiety, depression and the like, mostly because of where they were raised, the overly zealot families they may have and bigots, ALL of whom harass, dehumanize and harm these normal people who done nothing wrong besides a) liking the same sex, b) liking both sexes, c) liking neither sex (oh yeah, Asexuals do count in this too.) and/or c) wanting to be a different gender than the one they were born with.

In truth if we take all these people who do harm and spread hate with bigoted ideals out of the equation and have LGBT live in nice, accepting and caring communities that don't attack or dehumanize them for being who they wish to be, there would literally be little to no difference between someone who is gay and someone who is straight other than who they are sleeping with.

I think the main problem of this issue isn't really your mindset more so than the source of your information, which is actually a personal bias, telling you that because someone is transgender or, god forgive, 'teh gey!' that they must be mentally ill. In truth there is little to no scientific evidence proving such and as Govangoth stated genetics do play a small role as well, but in the end everyone is normal and perfectly, mentally healthy. In fact as time passes, the more that these myths are disproved and that lgbts are all more normal than one may think.


I hope this post enlightened you a bit. You're seeing it as she still being a man with a mental illness and thus shouldn't be able to join. Everyone else is seeing her as an ex-man, now the woman she always wanted to be, who is completely and totally normal in every way, shape and form. The only problem that she may have was one that everyone who is LGBT faces at least once. The fear of not being accepted by friends or family, by being dehumanized for being who you wanted to be and for being harassed and attacked by people who really shouldn't give two shits what sex/gender you wish to be or sleep with.

My Sources:
Homosexuality and Mental Health
http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb02/newdata.aspx
Sexual Orientation Myths + Facts | LGBT | CWRU - Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Center - Case Western Reserve University
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: Esmeray
Here's one definition for disability: "a physical or mental condition that limits a person's movements, senses, or activities."

If it impedes your ability to go about your life in a normal fashion, whether it's mobility or just doing whatever you want to do (within the law at least), then it can be classes as a disability. Depression could be disabling because it prevents you from having a normal functioning life. Gender identity disorder could be disabling because they can't do things as the gender they identify as, plus all those potential other disorders with a high comorbidity rate with GID. Inability to have a healthy sex life due to issues with genitalia (even simple disgust and dysphoria when seeing/using whatever you were born with, as some people with GID have) could also be considered a disability.
Okay, I understand this. So let me ask this, and its totally just asking for opinion so you know... Opinion away:

Is it better to try to get someone to accept and learn to love themselves (I guess similar to radical self love that people in the "bigger" people communities), or should they try to change themselves physically?

I mean, people can do whatever, so long as they don't make me accept it or pay for it. Just like smoking or drinking, in my opinion.

Thats why I like Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner. He said its how he is and he doesn't care of people accept him or not.

Not necessarily. Even those who don't initially have any trouble with their gender stuff might end up being driven to suicide by hate and bullying from people who think they're a freak. I don't know if there's been any research done on that in specific though, so I'm just making a semi-educated guess here.
I guess that makes sense. I would (again, just opinion) think that waking up and looking at yourself in the mirror after changing your.. "plumbing", might drive someone to suicide more than others just being an asshole. People are assholes about everything, so I don't understand why transgendered people would be more susceptible to suicide. Again, that's just me.
 
Well For starters, being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender does not mean you have a legitimate 'mental disorder.' IN FACT: There is literally no liable proof that LGBTs are 'mental disorders' since this was a very long term debate between psychiatrists, scientists and more that flip-flops from saying "yes" and "no" throughout history. Not to mention that being LGBT has little to no effect on mental health, nor does it hold any effect against one's personality that are out of the norm. Most of the shit you hear is personal bias. Studies have proven that due to how people of the LGBT community differ in personality, that being LGBT is NOT in itself a mental illness and thus can NOT be cured.
I understand this, but being attracted to a certain sex (or gender) is different from wanting to be a certain sex (or gender). One has to do with physical feelings (far as I can tell) and the other is simply how you feel about your body. I think the arguments for who you love vs what you feel you are are different.

This however, if much different to a greater issue which is that LGBT communities ARE far more likely to HAVE an ACTUAL mental illness like anxiety, depression and the like, mostly because of where they were raised, the overly zealot families they may have and bigots, ALL of whom harass, dehumanize and harm these normal people who done nothing wrong besides a) liking the same sex, b) liking both sexes, c) liking neither sex (oh yeah, Asexuals do count in this too.) and/or c) wanting to be a different gender than the one they were born with.
I think I see an unfair generalization here. My parents (and myself) are "Mormons", as everyone else dubs us, and I am WAAAY into my own sex. I don't really get shit from them (lol, or myself.). I think to say "ALL of whom harass" is unfair.

In fact, I read something that talked about how Christians were starting to become cool with the whole "Gay Marriage" thing (or whatever they call it now), and that the only reason they got pissed off was because of the WAY it was passed, and not WHAT was passed.

Like I said, I'm into my own sex, but I know the way they came to that ruling was bullshit.

In truth if we take all these people who do harm and spread hate with bigoted ideals out of the equation and have LGBT live in nice, accepting and caring communities that don't attack or dehumanize them for being who they wish to be, there would literally be little to no difference between someone who is gay and someone who is straight other than who they are sleeping with.
LGBT communities are a thing? Like, they all live together in like communities or stuff? Or am I simply misunderstanding the way you used the word?

I think the main problem of this issue isn't really your mindset more so than the source of your information, which is actually a personal bias, telling you that because someone is transgender or, god forgive, 'teh gey!' that they must be mentally ill. In truth there is little to no scientific evidence proving such and as Govangoth stated genetics do play a small role as well, but in the end everyone is normal and perfectly, mentally healthy. In fact as time passes, the more that these myths are disproved and that lgbts are all more normal than one may think.
Honestly, I take everything as personal bias, and I grind it down until I find a reason not to think it is.

In this instance, why wouldn't this guy want to support doctors? If he simply said "yeah, go get your surgery!", he would be giving people the clarification that "yes, this is something you should make doctors richer by doing!"

I think both sides of this particular debate are formed from bias,
There is literally no liable proof that LGBTs are 'mental disorders' since this was a very long term debate between psychiatrists, scientists and more that flip-flops from saying "yes" and "no" throughout history.
this sort of supports that argument, because it I don't see any undeniable and objective truth to this. Its not like sticking your hand in a fire and saying "ouch, thats hot", and you having that proven like that.

I hope this post enlightened you a bit. You're seeing it as she still being a man with a mental illness and thus shouldn't be able to join. Everyone else is seeing her as an ex-man, now the woman she always wanted to be, who is completely and totally normal in every way, shape and form. The only problem that she may have was one that everyone who is LGBT faces at least once. The fear of not being accepted by friends or family, by being dehumanized for being who you wanted to be and for being harassed and attacked by people who really shouldn't give two shits what sex/gender you wish to be or sleep with.
I'm trying to understand. And again, I am not like, trying to be frustrated or angry about this. I don't care what people do so long as they don't use my money or make me accept it, just like weed or alcohol.

And I do appreciate you taking the time to write this out for me, I will look through those sources.
 
Okay, I understand this. So let me ask this, and its totally just asking for opinion so you know... Opinion away:

Is it better to try to get someone to accept and learn to love themselves (I guess similar to radical self love that people in the "bigger" people communities), or should they try to change themselves physically?

I mean, people can do whatever, so long as they don't make me accept it or pay for it. Just like smoking or drinking, in my opinion.

Thats why I like Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner. He said its how he is and he doesn't care of people accept him or not.
It's hard to say, really. There's merit to both the idea of self-acceptance and changing yourself to be what you see yourself as. Since you mentioned the whole fat acceptance thing, that's a reasonable parallel: if you're unhappy with your body it's equally valid (from a purely emotional and self esteem standpoint, not so much health) to just accept your weight or to go exercise to try to change it. The really tricky thing is that the change option for trans people isn't as easy as hitting the gym and changing your diet: some of the basic lifestyle choices may be analogous (changing appearance, forcing yourself to do things differently until they become habit, that sort of thing), but on top of that it might require medication in the form of hormone drugs, psychiatric evaluations, and perhaps the extreme of gender reassignment surgery.

I'd say the best way to go about it is to try the least extreme next step in the process and see if you can live with that. Try to just accept your body for what it is at first, possibly with psychiatric aid, and if that fails then try the first steps of transitioning. If changing your name and pronouns and appearance and such doesn't do it for you, try to hormones alone. If you go through the hormone treatment for a long time and still just can't deal with your body as is, that is the time to consider the surgery option. Just going immediately to the surgery option because you don't feel comfortable with your body is a little crazy.
I guess that makes sense. I would (again, just opinion) think that waking up and looking at yourself in the mirror after changing your.. "plumbing", might drive someone to suicide more than others just being an asshole. People are assholes about everything, so I don't understand why transgendered people would be more susceptible to suicide. Again, that's just me.
Well here's the thing: trans people, especially those for whom it is severe enough to classify as a disorder, might have that level of freak out and/or disgust about their body whenever they look in the mirror. That whole "omg this isn't right, this is fucked up, shit this needs to change" thought process is a large part of the driving force behind trans people going for the surgery option. Like that's what being transgender is all about: you feel like your body does not match the gender you identify as. I would posit that a more likely reaction to a post-surgery wake up and checking out the new goods under the hood would be a happy one along the lines of "it's finally right omg this is great."

Also, people are assholes about everything, yeah, but consider the extra shit a trans person goes through compared to a normal person. First of all there's that dysphoria of feeling like your body is wrong, like it's a horrible mistake that is ruining their life. People with all sorts of other body image problems also have higher suicide rates than the population average because the depression and self-loathing that kind of thing can generate will definitely fuck with someone's head. Then they have the bullying and hatred and such if people around them know they're trans, and you seem to be dismissing the heavy impact that can have. Getting constantly harassed and called a freak or a monster or whatnot and people telling you that you should kill yourself can really do a number on someone. It affects people differently, and some can stoically deal with a lifetime of shit without ever attempting suicide, but others are more susceptible to such things and can indeed be driven to depression and eventual suicide just from bullying. Then there's also the indirect hate that has a sort of splash effect: every time a trans person sees others saying those kind of horrible things about another trans person, they can get what you might call an echo of that hate. They know that the people saying "kill yourself tranny scum" would say the same to them, that the hate would be directed at them just for a facet of their life that they had no control over, and that can also fuck someone up. It's not a matter of trans people being like weak or naturally predisposed toward suicide, it's a matter of them having far more potential psychological punches aimed their way that might do some lasting damage.
 
LGBT communities are a thing? Like, they all live together in like communities or stuff? Or am I simply misunderstanding the way you used the word?
community
kəˈmjuːnɪti/
noun
  1. 1.
    a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common.
    "Montreal's Italian community"
  2. 2.
    the condition of sharing or having certain attitudes and interests in common.
    "the sense of community that organized religion can provide"
 
@redblood , thank you!

It's hard to say, really. There's merit to both the idea of self-acceptance and changing yourself to be what you see yourself as. Since you mentioned the whole fat acceptance thing, that's a reasonable parallel: if you're unhappy with your body it's equally valid (from a purely emotional and self esteem standpoint, not so much health) to just accept your weight or to go exercise to try to change it. The really tricky thing is that the change option for trans people isn't as easy as hitting the gym and changing your diet: some of the basic lifestyle choices may be analogous (changing appearance, forcing yourself to do things differently until they become habit, that sort of thing), but on top of that it might require medication in the form of hormone drugs, psychiatric evaluations, and perhaps the extreme of gender reassignment surgery.
Yeah, but I don't think that "radical" self love of an unhealthy body is actually the right thing. (People can do what they want), but that doesn't mean you are helping yourself any.

I think another fair (maybe better) analogy would be "trans-abled" people. Should someone get an arm cut off because they think it shouldn't be apart of them? How is that different when your body parts in question are genitalia and the like? I simply cannot square that logic.

possibly with psychiatric aid,
I got called a racist, homophobic bigot for even suggesting this, on multiple occasions. Kind of frustrating when you generally feel that this is a legitimate and good option...


Well here's the thing: trans people, especially those for whom it is severe enough to classify as a disorder, might have that level of freak out and/or disgust about their body whenever they look in the mirror. That whole "omg this isn't right, this is fucked up, shit this needs to change" thought process is a large part of the driving force behind trans people going for the surgery option. Like that's what being transgender is all about: you feel like your body does not match the gender you identify as. I would posit that a more likely reaction to a post-surgery wake up and checking out the new goods under the hood would be a happy one along the lines of "it's finally right omg this is great."
Yeah, but once you take that step, (and you really are only doing so much...) you CANT go back. I think that would be far worse. We all know that cutting something where your "Mustang" used to be doesn't compare to the pleasure you would feel otherwise. And I don't even know what options females have, and I don't think I want to.

Also, people are assholes about everything, yeah, but consider the extra shit a trans person goes through compared to a normal person.
I wont even attempt to compare peoples emotions/experiences from one thing (like trans) to another (like losing a loved one).

All of that is too different and I could never compare peoples feelings or experiences.
People with all sorts of other body image problems also have higher suicide rates than the population average because the depression and self-loathing that kind of thing can generate will definitely fuck with someone's head.
Yeah, I have some pretty serious depression and self-loathing as well. My neck my never be the same again after my car accident, but I'm not trying to deny my spine because its not the way I want it... Assuming that that is a fair comparison.

It always seems to me that in any other case, its usually agreed that some "radical" change to something is not the right way to go about things, except in the instance of transgenderedism (is that right?).

Then there's also the indirect hate that has a sort of splash effect: every time a trans person sees others saying those kind of horrible things about another trans person, they can get what you might call an echo of that hate. They know that the people saying "kill yourself tranny scum" would say the same to them, that the hate would be directed at them just for a facet of their life that they had no control over, and that can also fuck someone up. It's not a matter of trans people being like weak or naturally predisposed toward suicide, it's a matter of them having far more potential psychological punches aimed their way that might do some lasting damage.
I don't think that people in general hate trans people. I think they don't understand, that the idea is absurd (example, how it maybe seem absurd to a Socialist that Capitalizm might work, or that a Buddist finding Islam absurd.). Those examples wouldn't be considered "hateful". I don't understand the trans thing, and in my mind it is an absurd thought.. But that doesn't mean they can't do what they are doing.

As for the "potential psychological punches", I always find that physical punches back are pretty effective. Despite the fact that I always end up hurting myself somehow. xD
 
I understand this, but being attracted to a certain sex (or gender) is different from wanting to be a certain sex (or gender). One has to do with physical feelings (far as I can tell) and the other is simply how you feel about your body. I think the arguments for who you love vs what you feel you are are different.

This is true, however it is noted that my sources do target all LGBTs, From the 'L' for 'Lesbians' to the T in 'Transgenders'. The main concept of the part of my post that you quoted still stands, there really is nothing that proves that Transgenders are mentally ill. However you are right there there is a major difference between wanting someone of the same sex and wanting to be a different sex.

I think I see an unfair generalization here. My parents (and myself) are "Mormons", as everyone else dubs us, and I am WAAAY into my own sex. I don't really get shit from them (lol, or myself.). I think to say "ALL of whom harass" is unfair.

In fact,
I read something that talked about how Christians were starting to become cool with the whole "Gay Marriage" thing (or whatever they call it now), and that the only reason they got pissed off was because of the WAY it was passed, and not WHAT was passed.

Like I said, I'm into my own sex, but I know the way they came to that ruling was bullshit.
This is only half true. While you were brought up in a more accepting family, and while there is a major improvements in our society that proves that progress has been made since the early 2000s in both society's acceptance, understanding and the scientific research that is placed forth in showing more and more that LGBTs are normal people, there is still a lot of discrimination and bullying because of it. So yes, while it is much better than it was in the past it is still an issue and acting like it isn't existent is a rather dangerous attitude over it in itself.

LGBT communities are a thing? Like, they all live together in like communities or stuff? Or am I simply misunderstanding the way you used the word?

This is actually a concerning question to me just for the fact that it was even asked to begin with. Still though, to answer your questions. Yes there are such things as an LGBT community though these tend to be more like social groups where they talk with one another and are more often associated with a more major issue. Even so, this is not what I was meant to reference since I was using it to talk about LGBTs in general, which is often called the "LGBT community". Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Honestly, I take everything as personal bias, and I grind it down until I find a reason not to think it is.

In this instance, why wouldn't this guy want to support doctors? If he simply said "yeah, go get your surgery!", he would be giving people the clarification that "yes, this is something you should make doctors richer by doing!"

I think both sides of this particular debate are formed from bias,
I won't lie that you completely lost me here. I do not necessarily recall what you're talking about in this moment so I do hope you can clarify more on the context of this quote. Thanks.

As for 'personal bias', I do hope governmental sites and educational documents that are made after a college study are not considered as such.

this sort of supports that argument, because it I don't see any undeniable and objective truth to this. Its not like sticking your hand in a fire and saying "ouch, thats hot", and you having that proven like that.
To clarify, as my previous sources may show, the main reason things were so 'flip-floppy' when it comes to LGBT and mental illnesses is because of the bias in the past, things were far less advanced, and that LGBT were considered ANYTHING but normal. As time progressed progress was slowly made until today where evidence supports the fact that LGBTs for the most part are not mentally ill. Of course though, Transgenders are still considered 'iffy' on the subject, as Jorick pointed out, but in general they are still very capable in functioning perfectly fine in society and in the end, that is really all that matters.

I'm trying to understand. And again, I am not like, trying to be frustrated or angry about this. I don't care what people do so long as they don't use my money or make me accept it, just like weed or alcohol.

And I do appreciate you taking the time to write this out for me, I will look through those sources.
Good, I'm glad to hear you are relatively open minded and wish to understand more on why the overall populace think the way they do.

Never a problem, I'm sure you'll have fun with the read, but in case that wasn't enough I do have more for you. xD

SOURCE:
Survey: LGBT Adults See Acceptance But Also Discrimination
https://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/LGBTPublicSectorReport1.pdf
LGBT Bullying Statistics (While this is a source, I am not considering it to be 100% liable only because I am sure that these statistics might've been manipulated to make things seem worse than they are. I'll be conducting a further study on this later on.)
 
@Kakumei

I think maybe you should stop starting threads as these because it seems to lead down the drain. If you have questions maybe use the pm system.
 
@Kakumei

I think maybe you should stop starting threads as these because it seems to lead down the drain. If you have questions maybe use the pm system.
I think it's an open forum and they should be allowed to have civil discussion about modern affairs without worry of harassment and fear of reprisal. That and he'd have to know who to ask instead of sending a mass private group message to the hundred or so general chat posters.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Mid
@Kakumei

I for one never assumed you were a troll -- and I definitely agree that everyone assuming you were trolling just because you share a different opinion than the majority was a bit uncalled for -- and, I did try to help you out and explain things the best I could, which I'm only mentioning again because the fact that you didn't reply or acknowledge it already makes it seem like you didn't notice it, and I do legitimately want to help explain things.

In addition to everything brought up in my linked post, there's one more thing I wanted to highlight:

And I don't buy the "if you think something different you are something different" mentality. How does that work? Because if I think I had 3 dicks, I wouldn't. The extent of that to me would be pretending with three dildos or something.
There is a difference between identifying as a gender that doesn't match your sex and claiming to have sex organs that one doesn't have.

A trans man would identify as male, but he can't say "I have a penis" if he hasn't had any surgery and therefore doesn't, because, like you said, that statement simply wouldn't be true. But, that's not the point of it all, you see.

Identifying as a certain gender does not mean you're trying to delude yourself into thinking that your biology is different than what it is. In fact, I'd argue that trans people are probably very much aware of what their biology is, given the fact that, for many, their biology and the fact that their body doesn't match their gender makes them very uncomfortable.

When a trans woman says "I'm a girl", they're not trying to say "I have a vagina". Instead, they're saying "I'm a girl, regardless of what my body might look like". The emphasis is on gender over biology. Yes, lots of trans people do change their bodies in order to feel more comfortable with themselves, but not everyone does. In fact, I happen to personally know a trans girl who, if I didn't know her, I would've mistaken for a guy, because she does look like a guy, but, that doesn't matter. If she says she's a girl then I'll accept that. People don't need to change their bodies in order to "qualify" as trans. Being trans means that someone's gender identity doesn't match their biological sex. That's it. It doesn't necessarily imply anything about surgery, hormones, or even someone's choice of clothes. It just refers to gender.

Also, here's an interesting hypothetical:

Say there's a woman -- and I do mean a cis woman with the two X's, just so we're clear -- who just so happens to have a more muscular and broad-shouldered body than the average girl, and also happens to have more body hair than the average female, as well as a bit of peachfuzz on her upper lip. A lot of aspects about her physical appearance, especially her hairy lip, make her feel uncomfortable because they feel too masculine. She's a girl, so she wants to look like a girl -- and, therefore, she's uncomfortable with her own masculine build and body/facial hair. Even if she still clearly looks feminine enough for people to recognize her as a girl at a glance, and even if the hair on her lip is something that no one's ever commented on and that is only really visible when she really takes a close look at herself in the mirror, it still makes her uncomfortable because she doesn't like feeling like a man. Her body just doesn't feel feminine enough to match her gender.

Now, let's say it's discovered that the reason why she has these somewhat more masculine traits is because she happens to have a bit more testosterone in her system than the average female. Everything that's masculine about her is something that's biological, genetic, hormonal, etc -- all things that are pretty much out of her control. She's still a girl, definitely, but she doesn't feel comfortable in her own skin because of the masculine traits that were assigned to her at birth, most of which would be difficult or impossible to permanently change.

So, here's a thought... what if this woman (I'm going to call her "Susan" from here on out to make things easier), instead of being born with just a bit of extra testosterone and the traits that came with it, was also born with a Y chromosome and male sex organs? Would she no longer be considered a girl? It's still a matter of biological traits making her feel unhappy with her body, which she feels doesn't match her gender -- nothing has changed there. The only thing that's different is that she has a Y chromosome now and the traits that come with it. How does that change the situation?

Is she no longer considered a girl just because of the fact that she has the more "complete package" of male traits, even though she still feels like a woman and feels uncomfortable and self-conscious about those masculine characteristics?

You might say that she only counts as a man now because she is "fully" biologically male, but, consider this: in the first hypothetical, Susan had mostly female characteristics, but with some traits that were clearly more masculine. If being fully biologically male means that one must be of the male gender, does that mean that a person with mostly feminine traits but a few masculine ones would have to identify as mostly female, but slightly male? Because Susan didn't -- she identified as fully female, with her masculine traits feeling like they didn't match her identity and therefore making her uncomfortable. And it's not like that's something that we'd have trouble believing could happen; lots of girls feel insecure about having body/facial hair, and lots of boys feel insecure about having a more feminine voice. These are everyday examples of cis people who may feel like their body doesn't completely match their gender. And those aspects of their body that they dislike? Biological. Genetic. Assigned at birth. Etc. And it would be ridiculous to assert that a hairy-lipped girl or a womanly-voiced boy would have to identify as partially the opposite gender just because of some physical traits that they can't change, especially under the reasoning of "it's genetic so you can't change it".

And, if we have no trouble accepting that examples such as these are definitely the gender that they say they are, why can't we accept the same thing in trans people?

Food for thought...
 
@Windsong

Yes it is an open forum, there's nothing wrong with asking questions about topics confusing but it seems that in threads past and present everyone gets heated with opinions and so forth not solving anything. Anyways I just gave my opinion on the matter I'm done.
 
  • Thank You
Reactions: Windsong
Yeah, but I don't think that "radical" self love of an unhealthy body is actually the right thing. (People can do what they want), but that doesn't mean you are helping yourself any.

I think another fair (maybe better) analogy would be "trans-abled" people. Should someone get an arm cut off because they think it shouldn't be apart of them? How is that different when your body parts in question are genitalia and the like? I simply cannot square that logic.
Eh, honestly, as stupid as it might be for someone to want to remain horribly unhealthy or cripple themselves or whatever, it's their body to do with as they please. Genitals are a different matter than, say, an arm or a leg though. Losing a limb or similar major crippling alteration would drastically affect someone's ability to live their life, perhaps make them unable to work and thus perhaps need to have their expenses paid for by disability benefits, and that's a bit of a conundrum. Altering genitals will really only fuck with their ability to procreate (and that's not even a sure thing), and we already have less invasive optional surgeries that can do that for both men and women, so we've already decided that it's ethically fine. The question to ask is not "is it okay for someone to surgically alter their body," but rather what will cause more long term harm and have a higher likelihood of severe harm: the disorder that makes them want to radically alter their body, or going through with the surgery? Generally it looks like chopping off a limb is still pretty crazy, but gender reassignment surgery is gaining support amongst psychiatric and medical practitioners, so who knows how that coin will land in the end.
Yeah, but once you take that step, (and you really are only doing so much...) you CANT go back. I think that would be far worse. We all know that cutting something where your "Mustang" used to be doesn't compare to the pleasure you would feel otherwise. And I don't even know what options females have, and I don't think I want to.
So what? Lots of things are permanent changes. Should we prevent people from moving because they might end up hating their house? Should we prevent people from entering high stress careers because it might negatively impact their life? "But it's irreversible" is not a valid reason to oppose the surgery, imo, it's just a good argument for taking time and making sure it's what you really want before going through with it.
I wont even attempt to compare peoples emotions/experiences from one thing (like trans) to another (like losing a loved one).

All of that is too different and I could never compare peoples feelings or experiences.
Yep, that's pretty much my whole argument. People handle emotions differently, they react to various experiences differently, so trying to judge what someone should or shouldn't be able to handle is kinda crappy. Trans people simply have some more obvious emotional vulnerabilities than the average person who is comfortable with their gender, thus it follows logically that they're more likely to have major negative emotional reactions.
Yeah, I have some pretty serious depression and self-loathing as well. My neck my never be the same again after my car accident, but I'm not trying to deny my spine because its not the way I want it... Assuming that that is a fair comparison.

It always seems to me that in any other case, its usually agreed that some "radical" change to something is not the right way to go about things, except in the instance of transgenderedism (is that right?).
That's not a fair comparison at all. A sudden unexpected injury with permanent effects that isn't something people will likely mock and harass you for is different from growing up with something that is rather confusing and hard to deal with plus might attract levels up hate up to and including murderous rage.

Well, here's some food for thought: what's so "radical" about the surgery? You might as well consider it a cosmetic procedure plus maybe also getting sterilized, because you're just moving stuff around to make it look more like you would prefer. Looking at it from a purely medical perspective and discarding socially ingrained biases about gender issues, an appendectomy could be considered more radical than gender reassignment surgery because you're removing an organ entirely rather than just moving things. Oh, and before you say something about that only being done to save lives, if the statistics were to show that post-transition trans people had a far lower suicide rate than those who don't get such treatment then I would argue that the surgery does in fact save lives, but to be fair I haven't been able to find any statistics at that split suicide rates based on stage of therapy or transition.

Also, I would say that the hormone therapy is far more radical because it causes extreme changes in body and brain chemistry, but you don't seem to have said anything negative about that side of things. Is a visible physical change more extreme than a less visible chemical change just by virtue of it being visible?
I don't think that people in general hate trans people. I think they don't understand, that the idea is absurd (example, how it maybe seem absurd to a Socialist that Capitalizm might work, or that a Buddist finding Islam absurd.). Those examples wouldn't be considered "hateful". I don't understand the trans thing, and in my mind it is an absurd thought.. But that doesn't mean they can't do what they are doing.
Conscious hate on the part of someone making negative comments isn't required for someone to interpret their statements as being driven by hate. Someone who is pro-capitalism could see a socialist's comments about everything wrong with capitalism as being driven by hate. A Muslim could take any criticism of their religion, no matter how minor, as hate from the hypothetical Buddhist. Perception matters more than intent when it comes to how statements actually affect people.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: Hana and Kagayours
Hey look, it's a GIF representing what you're all doing right now:

Head%20butt%20again%20wall.gif


Since this is officially a Wall Headbutting Contest, though, I think Jorick's form and impact is best and I award him 8/8. Shit's great, mate.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.