And I understand this. What I don't understand is why people are trying to change that natural biology. A persons body generally knows when they need a state of repair, and when someone changes there plumbing, it tries to fix itself. I understand not being comfortable with certain aspects, but trying to change in such a drastic way is just something I can't square with myself, especially when it seems like physical harm.
*shrugs* Why would the hypothetical Susan perhaps want to get laser hair removal for that lip of hers? Why would anyone want to change any physical trait that they aren't comfortable with?
Whether or not it's a gender thing, I see nothing wrong with people having these changes made if that's what they want to do with their body.
And, as for it causing "physical harm", well, I'm going to assume that the medical professionals performing the surgery know what they're doing, and that it won't be a dangerous process.
This actually helps me with the definition of trans. I can accept that, and I can accept things like hormone therapy and stuff, but like I tried to say before, I can't logically get on board with what seems to be self mutilation. I could accept the other things mention, though.
Once again, I'd have to disagree that this sort of surgery is "self mutilation", since it's being performed by medical professionals.
At any rate, this thread started with the question of whether or not Caitlyn Jenner really counted as a woman, and I just wanted to clear up that trans people are whatever gender they say they are, regardless of whether or not they've had surgery (so, yes, she would "count").
Whether or not you agree with having that sort of surgery is a bit of a different can of worms. Just wanted to make sure we at least understand each other about the previous point.
I understand what you are getting at. The chromosome argument I made before may have not been proper to what I am trying to convey. I think that Male and Female are a way of identifying a person based on what they contribute to reproduction, naturally.
Well, yeah, that would make sense for referring to the male and female
sexes... Gender is different, though, is what I'm trying to say.
Yes, I can understand the Gender thing. And if people want to call boy and girl "social constructs" I get that too, so long as they realize that they are only making more "social constructs" by adding to the pot.
I can't look at someone and know "what gender is this person?", based on what they might feel about themselves or how they portray themselves. But what I can do is identify you based on what I can see "male" or "female" parts.
Yeah, I admit that people are bound to make assumptions about people's gender based on physical appearance, but I really don't see why that's such a huge issue. If I accidentally misgender someone and they correct me, then I'll apologize and try to keep their gender in mind in the future. If someone introduces themself as being a certain gender, I'll accept that at the start, too.
I think the convenience of knowing everyone's gender right away (which we would still have for
most of the population) is a small sacrifice to be made for sake of helping trans people feel more comfortable about themselves by respecting their gender identity.
But if people
are going to remain so hung up on physical parts to determine gender, then, well... all the more reason for trans people to feel the need to get surgery.
It's one thing if you want them to be happy with their bodies without surgery, but you really can't blame them for wanting to change that about themselves if the people around them still vehemently assert that one needs a penis to be a boy or a vagina to be a girl.
Even when a person drastically changes how they look (I cross dress and pretty damn good, if I do say so myself.) I think most people can tell. I know I haven't been fooled yet (not saying that fooling people is the intention).
So? Just because I know what a trans person's biological sex is doesn't mean their gender is any less valid -- especially if the changes made to their physical appearance still signify to you that they
prooobably identify as the gender they're trying to look like, and not that of the sex that you can see behind the curtain.
I would like to ask this, just a casual question I guess. I don't know if you feel that gender is a "social construct" or not, but if you do:
Usually the argument for gender for people who aren't so "traditional", is that gender is merely a social construct and should be ignored as just "male or female", and started making all these labels to identify how someone feels.
If people are fine rejecting the traditional "male and female" labels, then shouldn't people who are more "traditional" be allowed to reject all the "new" labels?
I won't force people to change. Example: I haven't been pointing out every time you called Caitlyn Jenner a "he" and telling you it's wrong.
Instead, I focus more on understanding, and so, yes, I would strongly encourage people to learn to be accepting of people's identities, even if they are "new" for them, because I think it's good for them to understand what exactly it means to be trans and the harsh effects that misgendering can have on a person.
