Suicide?

[Santario]

I'm not going to leave a huge thing here because what I have to say is limited on this subject. My mother committed Suicide on February 25th 2014. she had been suicidal her entire life on top of MANY other mental issues including the same type of depression Fauna has described. Fast cycling bi-polar, Dissociative Identity disorder (Also know as multiple personality disorder), Schizophrenia, and severe social anxiety. My mother was literally handed the shit pot of mental disorders. She was only 58 when she passed away.

Now was I very, very angry when it happened? You're damn right I was because this was my mother a woman I still find myself wanting to talk to every god forsaken day but I can't. Did I think it was wrong and selfish? At first yes because she took my mother away from me. Even as crazy as she was she was still my mom and I love her dearly. However after some time had passed I thought about it more and realized that the only reason why my mom would finally make the plunge and leave this world including me was because of the amount of pain she was suffering. It was devastating to watch her go through what she went through just on a day to day basis. Literally one moment she could be laughing and telling jokes and the next crying and breaking dishes but not able to tell me what was wrong. Most bi-polar isn't the severe hers was.

She loved life so much and really loved everything about it, but yet she still chose to not be in this world, because of the pain both physical and mental. Yeah you could say she let her disease win, but truly after being put through so much pain can you blame her? I can't. I really can't find a single inch of my mind, heart, or soul that can blame her for wanting to leave and taking that option. I love her dearly and I always well, but I can't see her suicide as selfish. I can only see me as selfish for wanting her to remain here while in so much unbearable pain.

This got longer then I intended and since the year anniversary is coming up soon actually helped me vent out some of my feelings, but my opinion remains.

You cannot judge how much someone hurts. You just can't and if they feel like they can't handle it anymore and that's the only way to stop it then it's their choice and they have the right to choose that. Yes it hurts us here and we grieve for a very long time because of it, but truly you have to remember that they have been pushed to the brink every single day after day after day after day. Just because you can deal with it doesn't mean everyone else can.

 

[Kylulu]

I don't say that suicide is selfish because of the people that are affected by it. I'm saying that suicide is selfish because there is always someone out there suffering more than you are. Out in the world there is someone who has hit rock bottom and feels they have nothing to live for. Yet they push on, they continue to live hoping to find something that gives their life meaning. That is the selfishness behind suicide, because it's the truth. You're problems are the worst for you, not the worst that could possibly ever happen to anyone. It's selfish to think that what's going on in your life, no matter how bad gives you the right to decide that is the worst possible thing anyone can experience and believe that it's a valid excuse to end your life. It's not. There are people out there in the world who suffer from problems that others could not even begin to comprehend, let alone survive.

We live in a world where the horrors of humanity are displayed for everyone. You see suicide bombers killing innocent people. Children witnessing their parents being murdered, mothers watching their daughters being raped, and people want to commit suicide because of what? People who are suicidal can get help. There are hotlines, clinics, even websites offering to help people who are suicidal. All they have to do is pick up a phone, get on their computer and there's someone there willing to lend an ear. The fact that they choose not to get help, that they believe their life is the worst when there are countless others out there who are suffering a hundred times worse than they are, that is selfish, and if you can't see that then you're blind.

You don't think they know? Most people who think of committing suicide are acutely aware that there are a plethora of people in the world who objectively seem as though they are suffering far worse. But that knowledge doesn't make their pain go away. It still feels as though the suffering they're going through is unbearable and world ending, even with them constantly telling themselves it isn't.

"Why are you sad!? You have a roof over your head and food to eat! There are thousands of people out there with nothing, and they're still living! Stop being stupid and selfish and be happy again!"

And it just doesn't work. If anything, it's a poisonous mindset, because now you're beating yourself up for hurting, belittling your hurt, letting it fester until it's too big to try and pretend that it doesn't exist. And ultimately it helps nothing.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

I wouldn't call Suicide selfish like the majority of people here have. Is it sad? Yes, but it's not selfish.
In fact it is more easily arguable to say the other people are selfish, because you are literally saying "You cannot make this life choice for yourself because of how I feel!".

+If you want to argue that others have it worse please remember that like Jorick highlighted above people react to such pressures differently.
And something else I'd like to add on, would you ever expect a five year old to be capable of the same work as an adult?
Would you expect a guy who just graduated college and started work to handle the same workload as a 40 year veteran?
Probably not, because skills, endurance, abilities etc are gained over time. If some is constantly exposed to something they grow better equipped to deal with it, it's part of why say boot camps are so insane on discipline, shouting at recruits, order, routine etc. It's giving you stress and condition management skills you may need when facing a situation of kill or be killed.

Though honestly I think I can see the main barrier that causes people to see Suicide as selfish is the disconnect between physical and mental conditions.
Now remember Mental Illness as issues/problems with the brain, and the brain is a physical organ in one's body and operates entirely on chemicals, hormones etc. in addition to and in the same way the rest of your body relies on things such as blood, oxygen etc. So technically speaking stuff like Depression is a physical problem in the sense that it is a physical part of your body going bad from negative influence/input. In very much the same way a disease can damage your heart, lungs etc.

If someone dies from a heart attack do you call them selfish? If not, why?
Probably because you recognize it's not something they really control, no one can 'snap out' of a heart attack, even if say it was caused by something like a really bad breakup, too much stress etc.
So logically, scientifically and biologically speaking is it really that different when the disease/killer is something like Depression instead?

Now, someone with depression who goes commit suicide as there first option? I wouldn't even call that selfish, but I would call it rather unwise.
In the same way that if someone responded to a stroke by offing themselves instantly, that's not selfish, that's just a very unwise choice because they didn't bother to look at the alternatives first.

Lastly, let us remember that Suicide is a very quick decision. Sure the actual planning takes a while, but the execution is instant and allows for no foresight or regret after being executed.
One where many of them might have turned around and went "Holy shit! Why the hell did I do that!?" if not for the fact suicide was permanent.

So, in a nutshell.

• Suicide is not selfish, it is a sad result to a disease
• Just because someone went through worse doesn't mean all others can handle it (nor have the tools to handle it)
• Alternatives should be looked at first, but not doing so is a very unwise decision
• It is a quick choice, and the person doing it has no chance to foresight, or looking back once the act is done

 

[Seth Bloodmoon]

I am far from being a religious person myself so that doesn't affect my opinion on the matter in any way. Is suicide selfish? In some cases I am sure it is. In others, not so much. I wish I could offer a more in depth reasoning for my mind set on this matter but I have a horrid time trying to explain such things.

I do know I have contemplated suicide as a solution many times in my life. I've been very close to making an actual attempt on a couple occasions even. However, that's as close as I've come to it. I end up thinking of my mother and my aunt, who rely on me for quite a bit of help, I end up thinking about the few actual friends I have away from the internet. Hell, I think of the few friends I have on the internet even, and it's enough to pull me back from the brink. That's just how my mind works.

I don't know how another person's mind works, though. It's not my place to judge why they ended it all. The only time I would do so is if they decided to take others down with them.

 

[dragonesper]

I agree a lot with @Fauna and @Kylulu.

I can understand the feeling of wanting to disappear, to not exist and to no longer be a bother for those around me. I had those same thoughts during my last half of elementary and during junior high. I even contemplated once but backed off because dying scared me. Occasionally I still want to disappear, but I don't wanna die. So it's kinda complicated.
It might sound selfish, others do go through worse and push through but measuring things by relative matters won't help one bit. (Like: "Oh, you are shunned at school? Man, I feel for ya, everyone's bullying me and I get thrown in dumpsters often by the other kids. So don't cry, you sound whiny.") What it does is teach you how to shut up and bottle up all those things because you sound "whiny" and "selfish".

On the other hand I can also understand the feeling of being left behind. My boyfriend took his life. I don't wish for others to go through that kind of experience. It hurts and you're left with a messy aftermath and a lot of questions. Not to mention triggers. Plus the icky talks from people who "understand". I can't talk about him with others without it turning into some really frustrating and opinionated discussion because the subject is. So. Damned. Difficult. *sighs* And of course the sympathy. I find that one gross.


Do I consider suicide selfish? No, never. Do I consider it difficult? Yes. There's no one true answer to this thing.

 

[Dervish]

Way I see it, things will never get better if you kill yourself, and for most people there's a lot of others whose lives would be devastated if they died.

I mean, of course there's always things like euthanasia that's a whole different ball game, but most people who survive suicide attempts say that they're glad they didn't go through with it.

I think it's a tragic waste, but I don't have strong feelings one way or another. I just think at least with living, you always can try to go back up, but if you're dead, that's it. Your suffering may stop, but so does everything else.

 

[Asmodeus]

I know quoting someone on Iwaku is equivalent to fucking their mother... but here I go...

I mean, of course there's always things like euthanasia that's a whole different ball game

So the way you see it, what distinguishes suicide from euthanasia? Do you have to be absolutely sure that the person is physically healthy and that no one is being burdened by their existence before you call it "suicide" and equate it with selfishness? Or are you talking assisted vs non-assisted? I'm not sure why the balls are in different fields here.

but most people who survive suicide attempts say that they're glad they didn't go through with it.

Isn't that... because... the ones who aren't glad they survived... are the ones who just go and kill themselves on the second attempt... before they can talk to a statistician or update their Twitter feed? o__o

I just think at least with living, you always can try to go back up

Again, if you're putting terminal diseases and mental problems in a "different ball game", then... that's okay I guess... But there are plenty of people's lives that can't be fixed by adding two spoonfuls of wait-the-fuck-and-see.

It really can't be denied that some people CAN and WILL help others by committing suicide.

To assert that all the billions of humans throughout history who have ended their own lives were just ignorant and short-sighted is very offensive.



*prods Dervish slowly on the nose*

I ain't mad, Bro. Just WTFing. o_o

 

[Jorick]

I don't say that suicide is selfish because of the people that are affected by it. I'm saying that suicide is selfish because there is always someone out there suffering more than you are. Out in the world there is someone who has hit rock bottom and feels they have nothing to live for. Yet they push on, they continue to live hoping to find something that gives their life meaning. That is the selfishness behind suicide, because it's the truth. You're problems are the worst for you, not the worst that could possibly ever happen to anyone. It's selfish to think that what's going on in your life, no matter how bad gives you the right to decide that is the worst possible thing anyone can experience and believe that it's a valid excuse to end your life. It's not. There are people out there in the world who suffer from problems that others could not even begin to comprehend, let alone survive.

We live in a world where the horrors of humanity are displayed for everyone. You see suicide bombers killing innocent people. Children witnessing their parents being murdered, mothers watching their daughters being raped, and people want to commit suicide because of what? People who are suicidal can get help. There are hotlines, clinics, even websites offering to help people who are suicidal. All they have to do is pick up a phone, get on their computer and there's someone there willing to lend an ear. The fact that they choose not to get help, that they believe their life is the worst when there are countless others out there who are suffering a hundred times worse than they are, that is selfish, and if you can't see that then you're blind.

That's the same exact brand of argument as people who say "why are you feminists bitching about the situation here when women in the Middle East and Africa have it so much worse than you?" That is by no means a legitimate point. Pain and suffering are not zero sum games. There is not a finite amount of it to go around. Also see my previous point about it being entirely subjective. Honestly, if anything, I feel like this argument is equivalent to saying "you don't have anything worth crying about, quit being such a little bitch and man up" to a depressed person. Not all all helpful or useful, and possibly damaging.

 

[Dervish]

I know quoting someone on Iwaku is equivalent to fucking their mother... but here I go...

So the way you see it, what distinguishes suicide from euthanasia? Do you have to be absolutely sure that the person is physically healthy and that no one is being burdened by their existence before you call it "suicide" and equate it with selfishness? Or are you talking assisted vs non-assisted? I'm not sure why the balls are in different fields here.

Isn't that... because... the ones who aren't glad they survived... are the ones who just go and kill themselves on the second attempt... before they can talk to a statistician or update their Twitter feed? o__o

Again, if you're putting terminal diseases and mental problems in a "different ball game", then... that's okay I guess... But there are plenty of people's lives that can't be fixed by adding two spoonfuls of wait-the-fuck-and-see.

It can't really be denied that some people CAN and WILL help others by committing suicide. To assert that all the billions of humans throughout history who have ended their own lives were just ignorant and short-sighted is very offensive.



*prods Dervish slowly on the nose*

I ain't mad, Bro. Just WTFing. o_o

I mean assisted suicide, with a doctor. I suppose euthanasia could also be the same as your dad taking you out back with the shotgun if you have a bad stomach ache, but I mainly had in mind if someone had a terminal illness and the remainder of their life was going to be absolute agony, or they're going to be a vegetable forever. That, to me, is a different ball park from being emotionally distraught and swallowing a bullet. In the latter instance, there's a good chance your situation would improve in time, in the former, you're never getting better and it would be a mercy. That's my distinction on the matter.

Now, to be clear, I don't think little of people who commit suicide. We've all experienced things in our lives that make it feel like it should be the solution, and I can't imagine what somebody's enduring to actually follow through with it. I think it's tragic because those people didn't get the help they really needed, whether by choice or the fact that nobody saw the signs.

I can't say if people go ahead and try again after being quoted or interviewed after surviving an attempt, but generally I've been getting the impression that a lot of the survivors kind of get a second lease on life and their attempt was rock bottom for them. Of course, there's always somebody who is determined and will try again, or keep trying until they succeed, but I'm pretty sure those aren't the people who look back on the attempt and think, "My god, what was I thinking? I nearly killed myself!"

And granted, people can have miraculous recoveries in terminal medical situations. What I was getting at was I know that euthanasia (or assisted suicide, if you prefer) can be a bit of a hot-button topic, and I kind of got the impression that a lot of people made a distinction between that and like I said, somebody electing to end their own life on their own accord. Maybe some people see them as one and the same, and that's fine, it's just my take on it.

"It can't really be denied that some people CAN and WILL help others by committing suicide. To assert that all the billions of humans throughout history who have ended their own lives were just ignorant and short-sighted is very offensive. "

This definitely wasn't what I was trying to say, and I apologize if that's what was taken from it. Obviously every instance is unique, but I still feel that in a lot of cases, a person's situation isn't permanent. I know for anyone who decides to ultimately go through with suicide, it doesn't seem like there is a tomorrow or that things will ever improve, but you'll never know unless you live to see that day.

In my own particular instance, I suffer from crohns disease, which has no cure and frankly I'm terrified of the future because I might be looking at a future where I can no longer work, eat solid foods, and have my entire large intestine removed, and it's led to all sorts of emotional turmoil for me where the thought of killing myself has come and gone, so I'm definitely not stating my opinion as someone who's callous and doesn't understand; it's just terrifying to think of what somebody's enduring to drive them to the point where they'd actually do it.

 

[Sidhe]

Now, to be clear, I don't think little of people who commit suicide. We've all experienced things in our lives that make it feel like it should be the solution, and I can't imagine what somebody's enduring to actually follow through with it. I think it's tragic because those people didn't get the help they really needed, whether by choice or the fact that nobody saw the signs.

You know, I used to think this, too, but then I looked around and talked to people outside of my social group (AKA 'depressed and otherwise downtrodden people who probably have, at some point, contemplated suicide') and realized that no, most people really don't! Committing suicide isn't a normal thing to think about, outside of those intrusive 'dude, what would happen if I just jumped out in front of that train!?' thoughts that aren't uncommon or unhealthy. That's part of the reason why I think suicide - or threats of suicide/self harm - should always be taken seriously.

 

[Asmodeus]

Yeah? Well fuck you too bu-- Oh....

Wait... you answered like a grown-up. Damn.



Yes, some people who kill themselves are ones who don't realize that help is just a few steps away. But there are others who have considered it from all angles and know that it will benefit others to end it there and then.

What I learned today is that you can't apply blanket terms. Suicide is both selfish, noble, not selfish and not noble.

*plays piano*

 

[Dervish]

You know, I used to think this, too, but then I looked around and talked to people outside of my social group (AKA 'depressed and otherwise downtrodden people who probably have, at some point, contemplated suicide') and realized that no, most people really don't! Committing suicide isn't a normal thing to think about, outside of those intrusive 'dude, what would happen if I just jumped out in front of that train!?' thoughts that aren't uncommon or unhealthy. That's part of the reason why I think suicide - or threats of suicide/self harm - should always be taken seriously.

Fuck, I'm doing an awful job explaining myself today.

But I think most people, if not everyone's, had a point in their lives where they thought about it. Not seriously or anything, but just a state where you aren't quite yourself and you're not thinking clearly. Hell, I'm sure almost every teenager who's had a messy break-up probably thought they didn't want to live anymore.

Also, I agree that threats of suicide should always be taken seriously and addressed accordingly, but a lot of the times it catches people completely off guard. People are REALLY good at hiding how troubled they are.

 

[Dervish]

Yeah? Well fuck you too bu-- Oh....

Wait... you answered like a grown-up. Damn.



Yes, some people who kill themselves are ones who don't realize that help is just a few steps away. But there are others who have considered it from all angles and know that it will benefit others to end it there and then.

What I learned today is that you can't apply blanket terms. Suicide is both selfish, noble, not selfish and not noble.

*plays piano*

If you'd prefer, I can start the name calling.

You pee-pee head.

 

[Ser K+]

Remember folks.

If it doesn't say "Debate"...

DON'T!


Committing Sui is like going to war... or doing anything in general.
There are good reasons for it. There are bad reasons for it. There are stupid reasons for it.

 

[Novis]

I only have to ask: How long should one be forced to suffer before they are allowed to commit this act upon themselves?

Case: A 42 year old woman has been suffering from depression and suicidal thoughts since age 13. Her entire teen and adult life has been a constant struggle with help. Medication, Therapy, counselling, more medication... One day she drives out to a farm, and injects herself with the same drug that is use to put down animals. Stolen from the Vet office where she works. She injects herself with 50cc and lays down, passes away quietly.

So I ask again, with all the so called help, how much time should one suffer before it's okay to want your constant suffering to end?

For the record: This is a true story.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

Friend of mine hucked himself off a bridge a couple years back.

And I completely understand why he did it.

He was big into his sports; bit of a gym-bunny, really. He fucking loved himself some philosophy too, and wasn't afraid to voice his opinions on the subject. I first learned of him when he got into an argument with a lecturer in the man's lecture (mad skills, right there), and got to know him in the seminars we were into together (which generally descended into he and I arguing for an hour then going to get drunk afterwards).

He also had a fun little disease called Multiple Sclerosis.

This disease was slowly yet surely crippling his ability to move and function as a human being. Fucking thing was slowly killing him, basically, and worst of all there's no cure for it. Though my friend was doing his best to cope, it was getting harder and harder to do. Last time I saw him he was having to use a cane to get around, it was too painful to move otherwise.

So he threw himself off a bridge. There was nothing cowardly or selfish about it. He had the right to say "I've had enough, this is too much for me" and though I miss him, I can't say I don't understand his position.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all suicides are in this vein. But the folks coming out with stuff like it being "inherently X or Y" need to consider just how fucking complex and diverse an issue this is. Then maybe consider how silly they sound coming out with polarising statements like that.

Anyway, enough of me sharing. I'll go back to calling you all names now.

 

[Rare]

Suicide is a selfish act to commit, like stealing from your loved ones or even killing them.

Life throws the hard things at you, you're suppose to be brave and handle them. But from some, they are too weak to handle life and its' challenges. So they commit suicide.

In short:

If you're commit suicide, then you're too weak to handle life and the challenges that humans face.

EDIT: Whoa, that sounds so edgy.

 

[dragonesper]

Too weak? Really?

While there's some who actually can push through not everyone does! I do not consider my boyfriend weak for ending his life. I don't think of suicidal people as weak because they want to die. The instinct to survive is pretty damn strong so once someone has overrided that they are in that much pain.

I'm neither for nor against suicide since it's a case by case matter.

Don't call people in pain for weak when you don't fully understand their mind or why they want to die. Just don't.

 

[Novis]

I'm neither for nor against suicide since it's a case by case matter.

This. So much. It hurts.

 

[Asmodeus]

Not sure what you're trying to achieve there, Rare - except insulting vast tracts of humanity.

So no more thread for you.


*takes Rare's keyboard away*



Grumpy hit the haggis on the head. Suicide can sometimes be an act of self-empowerment. Why should some thing or someone else decide how you die, when you have the means to decide how your own story ends?