Who would you vote for the US presidency?

[Quiet One]

@Brovo, while I don't agree with a lot of your arguments, I am impressed by your ability to stay objective. It's a little hard for me - the issue being with the future of my country, after all - so there is a small amount of refreshment in your comments.

The "locker-room talk" argument however, is actually one of the most infuriating excuses I've ever heard. I have never met anyone who talks like that. I regularly read and watch some fairly intense porn online, and even THERE they don't talk like that. And it's not just talking. In the same tape where he makes those disparaging comments he and Bushy immediately come up to one of his models and pretty much force themselves on her. "Give us a kiss?" "How about a hug for Bushy?" (not direct quotes)

You're right, he hasn't directly been accused yet. Yet. But given the evidence we've already seen of his behavior towards women, would it really be a surprise if these allegations were true?

I just don't think Trump can be given honesty points when you consider what his honest opinions actually are. Plus, PolitiFact - or whatever the organization is called - did a check on both candidates statements during debates and rallies. Hillary lied 13-15% of the time. Not good, but hardly a surprise. Trump was between 35-60%. So we acknowledge he's honest about his opinions (which are controversial and often offensive), but we're going to ignore that he lies about his history, his political views, his foundations, his taxes - his hands being tiny?

It's a little comforting hearing that there might be someone more competent - even if I disagree with Pence's views - controlling Trump from the sidelines, but I don't believe that'll pan out. The Republican party has been trying to control him for this entire election cycle. When he wasn't the nominee they were trying to shut him down. Once he was they tried to reign him in. Neither worked. As comforting as the thought may be for some, I don't feel it's a realistic hope. You might be able to control Trump's power, but you can't control his mouth. And that could be more devastating.

 

[Brovo]

his hands being tiny?

I love how this enrages him. I really hope that when Hillary the Hutt inevitably wins, she'll make some comment about his tiny, tiny hands.

You're right, he hasn't directly been accused yet. Yet. But given the evidence we've already seen of his behavior towards women, would it really be a surprise if these allegations were true?

Nope, wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. That being said, it's not uncommon for bandwagoning sympathy vampires to swarm a controversial figure. Especially if they can talk about an event years in the past, of which there is no reasonable measure of evidence that can be concocted either for or against it.

Basically, I don't doubt that Trump has shit tier views of women and treats the women in his life with terrible disrespect. If these were earlier times, I'd imagine he would have been challenged to a Gentleman's Duel many times by now--assuming his tiny hands would have allowed him to survive the first attempt. However, am I going to immediately jump and believe every claim levied against him by people who may have social or financial gains in doing so? Eh'... No. As much as I despise Trump, I have to be willing to give him the same benefit of the doubt I would give anyone else in this situation. Like Bill Clinton: Another man that I don't doubt has some serious issues concerning treatment of women, but which I have to let the justice system decide if it ever goes that far.

Everyone deserves innocence before guilt as the natural assumption failing all other things. Even Trump. Hell, so long as Trump has it, then I can rest assured knowing that everyone else does too.

The "locker-room talk" argument however, is actually one of the most infuriating excuses I've ever heard. I have never met anyone who talks like that. I regularly read and watch some fairly intense porn online, and even THERE they don't talk like that. And it's not just talking. In the same tape where he makes those disparaging comments he and Bushy immediately come up to one of his models and pretty much force themselves on her. "Give us a kiss?" "How about a hug for Bushy?" (not direct quotes)

Oh yeah, no, fair enough, he's complete scum. I was more just trying to explain the perspective of others. I don't agree with it, but I can at least attempt to better understand it. This point is yours, you're right.

I just don't think Trump can be given honesty points when you consider what his honest opinions actually are. Plus, PolitiFact - or whatever the organization is called - did a check on both candidates statements during debates and rallies. Hillary lied 13-15% of the time. Not good, but hardly a surprise. Trump was between 35-60%. So we acknowledge he's honest about his opinions (which are controversial and often offensive), but we're going to ignore that he lies about his history, his political views, his foundations, his taxes - his hands being tiny?

As I mentioned, he's really no less corrupt than Hillary. He's just as corrupt. He lies just as much (really, more), and I think he just gets caught doing it more because he has less experience doing it on the political stage.

Also, I'll note that even his personal opinions change. Look up his opinions of the LGBT community and watch him flip flop hard from tolerating them to being avidly against them in order to win more Republican core party votes. Hillary's done it too, just in the opposite direction--from being against gay marriage to being pro gay marriage, and from calling blacks "super predators" to being avidly for affirmative action.

The honesty point is more perspective. He's just more blunt and more straightforward--not really better than Clinton, but I can see how others might be persuaded otherwise.

It's a little comforting hearing that there might be someone more competent - even if I disagree with Pence's views - controlling Trump from the sidelines, but I don't believe that'll pan out. The Republican party has been trying to control him for this entire election cycle. When he wasn't the nominee they were trying to shut him down. Once he was they tried to reign him in. Neither worked. As comforting as the thought may be for some, I don't feel it's a realistic hope. You might be able to control Trump's power, but you can't control his mouth. And that could be more devastating.

Oh yeah, you can't control his mouth, but you don't need to. He'll settle down if he actually gets into power, because this is all a marketing game to him. Look at his career and his previous businesses, and his time on The Apprentice. He tries to inflate and sell high and makes outrageous claims to draw people in. When one of his businesses either succeeds or fails, he stops making outrageous claims about it.

It's, ultimately, why I considered him over Hillary for a while there. This all seems like classic Trump marketing ploys to me. The Wall, banning Muslim immigration, et cetera. It's all big promises he never has to deliver on once he's in power. All he has to do is half-heartedly submit a proposal and have it get shot down in congress and then blame congress for it. Bam, he's suddenly off the hook.

What ultimately persuaded me back over to Hillary was his choice of VP, and the fact that the next president will decide who the next Supreme Court Justice is. Mike Pence is the most conservative VP in, like, what, 40 years? Do we really want him, or Trump, to decide who gets to have human rights and who doesn't in Supreme Court hearings?

I don't think so. Not a risk that should be taken. That is an everlasting, damaging legacy that could live long after Trump is gone. So it's not really him that I fear--he's a fucking moron. It's who he might put into power in the Supreme Court, and his VP. The same VP that defunded Planned Parenthood. The same VP that compared healthcare reform to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The same VP that demanded millions of dollars of cuts from education funding, but almost green-lit a state-funded news service whose sole existence would be to spread propaganda.

However bad Hillary is, Mike Pence is absolutely worse. Trump is a moron, so whoever is his running mate will run at least part of the show--and it's almost comical that Trump chose someone who would set back civil liberties even further than Trump would.

 

[Quiet One]

It's very annoying how much I agree with so much of your point of view. :)

Anyway, at least you're lucky enough to be in Canada, where this shit isn't your problem. Well, hopefully stays not your problem.

There's a lot I have to concede you're right about, a few things I feel the urge to argue, and happily plenty of things we actually seem to agree on. For this reason I'm going to stop here. This is getting exhausting, and I don't want to talk about the insanity that is politics anymore. Good debate.

Final thought: THIS is how a debate should be done.

 

[Brovo]

Anyway, at least you're lucky enough to be in Canada, where this shit isn't your problem. Well, hopefully stays not your problem.

Well... We have our own problems. We have an unelectable Senate that is growing more corrupt by the day, a Prime Minister who seems completely and totally incapable of basic math, a completely broken left wing party that still has not found any serious leadership potential ever since the death of Jack Layton, a resource-based economy that is starting to tank thanks in part to the Saudis, and a right wing party that has no idea what to do now that Stephen Harper is gone.

That being said, yeah, America is in an objectively worse position. I'll take Justin Trudaeu over Trump or Hillary any day. Hell, I'd take him over Bernie Sanders.

Final thought: THIS is how a debate should be done.

Reasonable people are few and far between nowadays. It's nice to see that you are one of them. I wish you the best of luck with your country--regardless of who wins, you're going to need it. The world is a lot better with America than without it.

Good day, sir.

As for the elections... Well...

 

[Legens Legentis]

I don't think so. Not a risk that should be taken. That is an everlasting, damaging legacy that could live long after Trump is gone. So it's not really him that I fear--he's a fucking moron. It's who he might put into power in the Supreme Court, and his VP. The same VP that defunded Planned Parenthood. The same VP that compared healthcare reform to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The same VP that demanded millions of dollars of cuts from education funding, but almost green-lit a state-funded news service whose sole existence would be to spread propaganda.

Mike Pence just got a lot more appealing in my eyes, sans propaganda.

 

[Brovo]

Mike Pence just got a lot more appealing in my eyes, sans propaganda.

To each their own. He also signed a law that forced ten year minimum sentences for drug-related offenses, and still supports the PATRIOT Act to this day. He's not for civil liberties, or human rights. He's for ideology first.

I dislike having ideologues in power, but that's my position. I can see how his conservative principles appeal to you, I just strongly urge you look into his background a little more. Something just seems... Strongly off about him. Something I can't put a finger on.

 

[Legens Legentis]

To each their own. He also signed a law that forced ten year minimum sentences for drug-related offenses, and still supports the PATRIOT Act to this day. He's not for civil liberties, or human rights. He's for ideology first.

I dislike having ideologues in power, but that's my position. I can see how his conservative principles appeal to you, I just strongly urge you look into his background a little more. Something just seems... Strongly off about him. Something I can't put a finger on.

My thoughts on human rights and freedoms pushed me into Johnson's camp.
McMullin is a close second, however. But I will concede that Pence is a prominent neoconservative.

 

[Brovo]

My thoughts on human rights and freedoms pushed me into Johnson's camp.
McMullin is a close second, however. But I will concede that Pence is a prominent neoconservative.

Yeah.

See, John McCain would have been an a'ight right wing president. Dude got his ass tortured and scarred in war, and while I don't reflect his political positions, I would respect his bid for the presidency. Mainly because he fought and got fucked up defending my right to criticize him and has made zero indications that he would at all restrict my ability to do so... That takes some damn fine integrity, especially by the standards of a politician.

Hell I don't think Obama should have gotten his second term, but that's the past.

Mike Pence though? Eh'... He concerns me. I am fine with him being, say, a member of congress, because that's one voice among many. Being the president or vice president though? That sets the tone for the country. Mike Pence is... Ideology first, reality second. Not a good thing for a president or VP to have.

 

[SacredWarrior]

John McCain would have been an a'ight right wing president. Dude got his ass tortured and scarred in war

And people say Trump supports veterans?

Didn't he say something about McCain lying about that or him not being a real veteran?

 

[Quiet One]

And people say Trump supports veterans?

Didn't he say something about McCain lying about that or him not being a real veteran?

No, he said McCain wasn't a hero because he got captured. And this is the same guy who avoided that same draft FIVE TIMES.

While I don't agree with the Republican rhetoric (have a hard time agreeing with the Democratic rhetoric sometimes), I agree with @Brovo that he might have been a good president. The problem was when he introduced the world to Palin. Hey, Canada, if you want to just build a fence around Alaska...yeah, we'll look the other way. ;)

Okay, now I'm done.

 

[SacredWarrior]

No, he said McCain wasn't a hero because he got captured. And this is the same guy who avoided that same draft FIVE TIMES.

I'm done. Just.....what the bloody fuck? To me, that's just fucking low to say.

 

[Freyja]

But let's mention Mike Pence. I'm not going not overly participate in this discussion, but Mike Pence is one worrisome guy.
Maybe it's just me but from what I have seen from him, through interviews and such, he is. .. .worth mentioning.

He denies evolution, is very against planned parenthood, he was pro a law that forced women in Indiana to pay for funeral services for a fetus if she had an abortion or miscarriage(Only to claim he and Trump would never punish women who made the choice to end pregnancy), he wants to use HIV/AIDS money to fund conversion therapy. In congress pence voted to keep the EPA from regulating Greenhouse gas emissions. He opposed clean needle exchange in scott country. He believes mothers shouldn't work for the sake of their children. He actually ripped on Mulan, being liberal propaganda.

I just wanted to add the thing I have gathered. I am too lazy to really participate into the discussion. I had a few drinks and stuff.

 

[ᴛᴏᴄᴋᴀ]

Mike Pence just got a lot more appealing in my eyes, sans propaganda.

Mike Pence is a nightmare for women. He passed a bill forcing women to have funerals for fetuses, and that's not just for women who have had abortions, it's for woman who have miscarried as well. Ask anyone from Indiana how they feel about the guy. I have in-laws that live there and they're hoping Trump wins just so they can be rid of Pence. He might seem normal, but he's anything but.

 

[Brovo]

But let's mention Mike Pence. I'm not going not overly participate in this discussion, but Mike Pence is one worrisome guy.
Maybe it's just me but from what I have seen from him, through interviews and such, he is. .. .worth mentioning.

He denies evolution, is very against planned parenthood, he was pro a law that forced women in Indiana to pay for funeral services for a fetus if she had an abortion or miscarriage(Only to claim he and Trump would never punish women who made the choice to end pregnancy), he wants to use HIV/AIDS money to fund conversion therapy. In congress pence voted to keep the EPA from regulating Greenhouse gas emissions. He opposed clean needle exchange in scott country. He believes mothers shouldn't work for the sake of their children. He actually ripped on Mulan, being liberal propaganda.

I just wanted to add the thing I have gathered. I am too lazy to really participate into the discussion. I had a few drinks and stuff.

Mike Pence is a nightmare for women. He passed a bill forcing women to have funerals for fetuses, and that's not just for women who have had abortions, it's for woman who have miscarried as well. Ask anyone from Indiana how they feel about the guy. I have in-laws that live there and they're hoping Trump wins just so they can be rid of Pence. He might seem normal, but he's anything but.

And there it is. I knew there was something just fucking awful about him, but I couldn't remember what it was. Thank you for mentioning the fetus thing.

Because jesus titfucking christ, that's disturbing and unsound. "Pay to bury your fetus." Fuck. That's like punishing women for having a miscarriage.

 

[PersonaWolf]

I would have voted for Bernie. As much as I support him ideologically, there wasn't a lot he would have gotten done. At the best I think he would have been able to essentially ACA his way through some of his problems.

But he was and still is the only person I was willing to believe might have somehow been the catalyst to make some good change to our fucked up political system.

@Brovo I actually live in Indianapolis Indiana and have for 4 years.

Mike Pence is far more terrifying than you could possibly imagine from your location.

 

[Brovo]

Well, that's a twist.

EDIT

Keep in mind the title is misleading. She's not really endorsing Trump so much as actually pointing Hillary out to be the more violent and destructive one of the pair. Which is... Well, interesting enough to share.

 

[Decimate]

Giant Meteor FTW!

In all seriousness, I don't like any of the candidates. Trump got far with his 'Kiss my Ass' attitude, but that's all he had in my opinion. He basically just benefited from a perfect storm of circumstances within the Republican party what with bad establishment feeling and all. It's much like what happened with the Dems back in 60s and 70s. I'd have much preferred another candidate.

Hillary's more presidential, but she just doesn't have an honest bone in her body. I don't like her plan for where the country should be heading either. I guess it makes sense as I'm libertarian anyways.

The Independents thus far seem more level options, but each has their flaws. Stein's way too leftist for me and Gary just doesn't have the greatest grasp of Foreign Policy. In the end, I might just vote for Gary though.

 

[Kestrel]

It's between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

I'm happy not to have any responsibility.

 

[junebug]

*just wishes Ben Carson was back*

 

[Shiri]

I'm getting impatient for the next debate. How am I supposed to deal?