For the Confederacy! FOR DIXIE!

[O|NoSoul]

I have to disagree with that. To put it this way: There's a difference between Italian paintings of naked women and a playboy magazine.

Nope.

Both are equally protected under Free Speech.

 

[SlamifiedBuddafied]

As others have said, the symbol is sadly tainted.

Though I do lay some blame of this entire issue on social hysteria.

 

[O|NoSoul]

I think the flag shouldn't be flying at government buildings mainly because the South lost the civil war. Why are Southern states waving a defeated flag? Are they hoping the Confederate States will rise again? I see it as a huge disrespect to the U.S as if the South is saying "Fuck you, U.S. We're still here."

People should be allowed to fly the flag on their property if they want. It's their right. But, other than that it shouldn't be flying proudly in front of any state building.

I also think you shouldn't have added "Dixie" to the thread title then mentioning something like the Confederate flag doesn't promote slavery. "I Wish I was in Dixie" is a slave song that was mostly sung by slaves and people in blackface.

Dixie is another name for the Southern States. "I wish I was in Dixie Land" is not a "slave song" as much as the US national anthem is. A skim is enough to tell you there's no mention of "and then let's keep our slaves, black people suck, fuck the North." The person who shot it to fame as a hit learned it from an African American freemen, supposedly. If states want to fly the flag, then let them do it, but they should never be able to fly it over Old Glory. It's as much a part of the identity of the south as sweet tea. Let them have it.

And I think it's less "Fuck the US" because you'll find the south is home to some of the most patriotic men and women you'll find.

 

[Brovo]

As others have said, the symbol is sadly tainted.

I guess we shouldn't allow Québec to fly its national flag then. After all, back in the 70's--which is a lot more recent than the civil war--a separatist movement bombed over 200 government buildings and kidnapped several people, including a minister from the United Kingdom. It required martial law to restore order and there is still a great deal of discrimination against native anglophone communities. There is still bad blood, and flying the flag of Québec and calling them a "nation within a nation" is surely offensive to those who had family members kidnapped or who worked in a building that was bombed by the separatist movement.

Suddenly, perspective shows its ugly face, doesn't it.

 

[Protagonist]

I guess we shouldn't allow Québec to fly its national flag then. After all, back in the 70's--which is a lot more recent than the civil war--a separatist movement bombed over 200 government buildings and kidnapped several people, including a minister from the United Kingdom. It required martial law to restore order and there is still a great deal of discrimination against native anglophone communities. There is still bad blood, and flying the flag of Québec and calling them a "nation within a nation" is surely offensive to those who had family members kidnapped or who worked in a building that was bombed by the separatist movement.

Suddenly, perspective shows its ugly face, doesn't it.

The Quebec flag was invented decades before the 70's for a different purpose. The Confederate flag was invented specifically to represent the arsenal of slavery.

 

[Brovo]

The Quebec flag was invented decades before the 70's for a different purpose. The Confederate flag was invented specifically to represent the arsenal of slavery.

According to you, but what about to the people who fly that flag? What does it mean to them?

Again, I say let democracy decide things. I'm not going to pretend to know what the people who live there, with that flag, want for it.

 

[Dervish]

I guess we shouldn't allow Québec to fly its national flag then. After all, back in the 70's--which is a lot more recent than the civil war--a separatist movement bombed over 200 government buildings and kidnapped several people, including a minister from the United Kingdom. It required martial law to restore order and there is still a great deal of discrimination against native anglophone communities. There is still bad blood, and flying the flag of Québec and calling them a "nation within a nation" is surely offensive to those who had family members kidnapped or who worked in a building that was bombed by the separatist movement.

Suddenly, perspective shows its ugly face, doesn't it.

Wait, are you talking about the FLQ?

Because this is their flag:

Not this:

 

[Brovo]

Wait, are you talking about the FLQ?

Because this is their flag:

Not this:

And there are still people who wave the flag of the FLQ. In Québec.

Regardless, I'll rescind my point and capitulate. If it is sincerely believed that merely taking down a flag will remove bad blood, then I welcome the attempt, even if I find such a thought foolishly naive.

 

[SlamifiedBuddafied]

I guess we shouldn't allow Québec to fly its national flag then. After all, back in the 70's--which is a lot more recent than the civil war--a separatist movement bombed over 200 government buildings and kidnapped several people, including a minister from the United Kingdom. It required martial law to restore order and there is still a great deal of discrimination against native anglophone communities. There is still bad blood, and flying the flag of Québec and calling them a "nation within a nation" is surely offensive to those who had family members kidnapped or who worked in a building that was bombed by the separatist movement.

Suddenly, perspective shows its ugly face, doesn't it.

Hmm, I may not have been clear. I don't agree the flag should be removed. As for Quebec, I'm unfamiliar with the history of Canada in general being the ignorant person I am. Thanks for the information however. Though I feel like you're trying to get a rise out of me.

 

[O|NoSoul]

The Quebec flag was invented decades before the 70's for a different purpose. The Confederate flag was invented specifically to represent the arsenal of slavery.

Who exactly is this Arsenal of Slavery? Sounds terrifying.

Either way, the South was MORE THAN JUST ABOUT SLAVERY. Nowhere in any national anthem or pledge of allegiance to the flag said anything about "and we want to oppress black people because we think they suck and are dumb, love Robert E. Lee, yeehaw fuck the north."

You want to critique the Confederate States of America, research everything about them, if you dont, you're no better than those whites in the 60's who disagreed and hated everything associated with the Civil Rights movement or Black citizens. Or, dare I say, no better than those Germans in the 20s-40s who discredited everything Jewish simply because it was Jewish. Simply screaming about arsenals of slavery and exceptions to Free Speech, you're adding nothing to the debate, simply slinging mud at names and titles simply because you were taught Lincoln's Union = Good, CSA = Evil.

 

[Brovo]

Hmm, I may not have been clear. I don't agree the flag should be removed. As for Quebec, I'm unfamiliar with the history of Canada in general being the ignorant person I am. Thanks for the information however. Though I feel like you're trying to get a rise out of me.

It might be the avatar. I'm not, really. I just admit finding the thought of censoring a flag as though it will cure bad blood to be a very strange thought.

I admit though, I obviously don't understand something, so I think I'll just go ride a ferret off into the sunset. Thanks for the discussion everyone!

 

[Dervish]

And there are still people who wave the flag of the FLQ. In Québec.

Regardless, I'll rescind my point and capitulate. If it is sincerely believed that merely taking down a flag will remove bad blood, then I welcome the attempt, even if I find such a thought foolishly naive.

That's actually news to me. I haven't been through Quebec since I was about 8-9 years old, and while I don't doubt there's some people who use that as a nationalistic symbol, I have never seen it used online in Quebec separatist discussions. That's interesting, and is actually an effective parallel to the whole Confederate battle flag debate.

Anyways, to clarify my stance, I don't think the Confederate battle flag should be banned or abolished, and people should be free to use it as they see fit, but it shouldn't be flown by government entities. Ultimately, it's a controversial symbol that unfortunately is representative of a government and a period of time where many people associate it with slavery. I'm aware that the Confederate States weren't the bad guys, nor was slavery the primary point of the civil war, but it was the larger icon that came out of it. I think terrorist groups like the FLQ can be likened in a similar light to the KKK, where their use of a flag is ultimately with hateful purposes in mind, but they were fringe groups and not official entities, so had it just been the KKK who used the battle flag, I don't think it would have caught public imagination like it has, although it has persisted past emancipation and was still widely flown during segregation. It's a complicated history with a lot of bad blood, and while the flag itself means many things, it still stands as something that was flown proudly during one of the darkest chapters in US history. Maybe, in time, that the flag's persisted and the racist generations are starting to fade into history (although, about half the time I see somebody with a Confederate flag on the internet I expect to see them post something racist, and I'm usually not wrong), society will start to see it more as a symbol of collective Southern pride (like most of its proponents want) and its use under oppressive governments will fade.

Ultimately, I applaud the choices South Carolina and Virginia are making, and I think by shelving official use of the flag will hopefully help the negative stigma of it fade away; the systematic oppression of past governments had that flag flying, so I think it's a good way to say "we're not like that anymore". I would, however, object to outright banning the flag from personal use, because ultimately it's people's freedom to chose to do so and speak up in defense of it, as well as its people's rights to speak against it. I still stand by my original post for what the flag largely represents in public eye and that I personally think a lot of people (particularly here in Alberta who love flying it for whatever fucking reason) are ignorant of what that flag means to a lot of people. Long story short, it's your right to fly the flag, but don't be surprised if a bunch of people automatically assume you're a racist dick hole by default.

 

[MUSΞ]

Dixie is another name for the Southern States. "I wish I was in Dixie Land" is not a "slave song" as much as the US national anthem is. A skim is enough to tell you there's no mention of "and then let's keep our slaves, black people suck, fuck the North." The person who shot it to fame as a hit learned it from an African American freemen, supposedly. If states want to fly the flag, then let them do it, but they should never be able to fly it over Old Glory. It's as much a part of the identity of the south as sweet tea. Let them have it.

And I think it's less "Fuck the US" because you'll find the south is home to some of the most patriotic men and women you'll find.

Since the discussion seems to be dying, I'm just going to explain my views on the "Dixie" song and the national anthem. I don't want to be the one to bring this discussion back to life.

Just because the song doesn't have "Let's keep our slaves, black people suck..." directly in the lyrics, that doesn't mean it isn't a slave song. The whole song is a mockery sang by black slaves as they work out in the fields or in home, joking that living in Dixie was the best for everyone. Living in the South was only good for the rich white people while everyone else barely survived and was ridiculed for years. Read the lyrics, "Dixie" isn't meant to be taken seriously and literally. (The original version, anyway. I don't know about the other ones.)

The national anthem is suppose to be about our national pride and the protection of the American people. But, because of U.S history, the anthem is tainted with the views of our nation taking over others' lands, unlawfully taking it, and killing anyone in our way because we're under God's eyes.

I would like for our anthem to be changed to something else, but that's another discussion I hope is never brought up.

Anyway, that's how I feel about the two songs. Sorry for going slightly off topic.

 

[Dervish]

Since the discussion seems to be dying, I'm just going to explain my views on the "Dixie" song and the national anthem. I don't want to be the one to bring this discussion back to life.

Just because the song doesn't have "Let's keep our slaves, black people suck..." directly in the lyrics, that doesn't mean it isn't a slave song. The whole song is a mockery sang by black slaves as they work out in the fields or in home, joking that living in Dixie was the best for everyone. Living in the South was only good for the rich white people while everyone else barely survived and was ridiculed for years. Read the lyrics, "Dixie" isn't meant to be taken seriously and literally. (The original version, anyway. I don't know about the other ones.)

The national anthem is suppose to be about our national pride and the protection of the American people. But, because of U.S history, the anthem is tainted with the views of our nation taking over others' lands, unlawfully taking it, and killing anyone in our way because we're under God's eyes.

I would like for our anthem to be changed to something else, but that's another discussion I hope is never brought up.

Anyway, that's how I feel about the two songs. Sorry for going slightly off topic.

I don't think the US anthem has ever been seen as oppressive by anybody; it's a song that embodies the spirit of the nation and national pride, and most people don't come across it from across the world outside of sporting events and TV shows where it's usually accompanied by some kind of patriotic moment involving sympathetic characters rather than a victory anthem. If you asked people in countries the US has occupied in the past 15 years, I'm pretty sure the average person wouldn't be able to even tell you what the anthem remotely sounded like, but they could draw you a pretty approximate US flag.

I'm actually going to change tact here, and address the bolded bit, since I really want to point out that the US gets a fair amount of shit for everything, but it never, ever gets recognition for the good it does. Although this speech happened in the 1970s, a lot of it rings true today, and I encourage everyone to read it.

The Americans by Gordon Sinclair

The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Mississippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.

I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?
You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.

Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.

 

[MUSΞ]

I don't think the US anthem has ever been seen as oppressive by anybody; it's a song that embodies the spirit of the nation and national pride, and most people don't come across it from across the world outside of sporting events and TV shows where it's usually accompanied by some kind of patriotic moment involving sympathetic characters rather than a victory anthem. If you asked people in countries the US has occupied in the past 15 years, I'm pretty sure the average person wouldn't be able to even tell you what the anthem remotely sounded like, but they could draw you a pretty approximate US flag.

I'm actually going to change tact here, and address the bolded bit, since I really want to point out that the US gets a fair amount of shit for everything, but it never, ever gets recognition for the good it does. Although this speech happened in the 1970s, a lot of it rings true today, and I encourage everyone to read it.

I've known people who felt oppression by the U.S anthem. I've known Americans who hate how America was created and how it became the country it is today.

I don't. I know we have our good and bad. And, to me, it's mostly good. We still have a long way to go and it may take us decades to get the freedoms and rights we all equally deserve. But, eventually America does it (gay marriage is finally legal in all 50 states).

I just want to let everyone know I'm NOT against America (if it seems like I am). I do love my country and I just want an outcome with this and all issues that would be fair to the majority of the people. No one will be 100% happy, but decisions should be based on what's best for the country.

Great speech, as well. I'm glad I read it.

 

[O|NoSoul]

I would say something but Dervish seems to have taken the words from my mouth.

Bottom line, whether it's the Confederate flag or the US national anthem, I would hate to change because something was offensive or could be construed as offensive. I see no reason for our national anthem to be changed. That's my view.

 

[O|NoSoul]

I've known people who felt oppression by the U.S anthem.

I know this is off-topic but discussion is dying anyway, so...

Who are these people? I know how I'm going to sound, but in this day and age, I've heard people use oppressed as a synonym of offended, basically.

 

[Mid]

I think it is a part of our country's history and should be kept as such however...aren't we supposed to be united? Isn't that the whole point of all the stars on the flag? We are one nation so why are there two flags?

Put it in a museum. Give people knowledge about it because it is a part of the U.S.

There was a time where it meant a great many things to the south, some positive and others not so much however...let's be realistic. When most people think about the flag, all they really think about is race (white or black), oppression, discrimination and hatred...

Sure, a little more education could help but honestly...this is just dividing the country and it has lost its purpose in today's society. It may be time to lay it to rest.

 

[MUSΞ]

I know this is off-topic but discussion is dying anyway, so...

Who are these people? I know how I'm going to sound, but in this day and age, I've heard people use oppressed as a synonym of offended, basically.

You're most likely right. Offended would be a better word for most I've known. I know one was Native American and he refused to sing the anthem, pledge, or associate with any American holidays. From what he told me, he had a bad life on the reservation and just couldn't transition right in the city. I think he had that mentality that everyone was out to get him.

The other, when I think about it, is more offended than oppressed. She was an ultra sensitive mixed race women, very against anything American, and was a pain to deal with when I had to take U.S history with her. We clashed constantly as she was much more emotional in her debates while I tried my best to stick with what is proven in history.

The rest seem to be those who have immigrant parents and couldn't apply for some public funding for scholarships and things like that. I'm a bit iffy with this example as it can be seen as oppression, but at the same time there is a huge debate about citizenship.

Oppression wasn't the right word for these examples. I'm sorry for that.

 

[O|NoSoul]

You're most likely right. Offended would be a better word for most I've known. I know one was Native American and he refused to sing the anthem, pledge, or associate with any American holidays. From what he told me, he had a bad life on the reservation and just couldn't transition right in the city. I think he had that mentality that everyone was out to get him.

The other, when I think about it, is more offended than oppressed. She was an ultra sensitive mixed race women, very against anything American, and was a pain to deal with when I had to take U.S history with her. We clashed constantly as she was much more emotional in her debates while I tried my best to stick with what is proven in history.

The rest seem to be those who have immigrant parents and couldn't apply for some public funding for scholarships and things like that. I'm a bit iffy with this example as it can be seen as oppression, but at the same time there is a huge debate about citizenship.

Oppression wasn't the right word for these examples. I'm sorry for that.

It's fine. As much good as this country has done, it still has a lot to answer for, and I stand by that as much as I stand by the sentiment that I love this country. What I can say is that we can do our best to make amends and let it be known that we did our best, whether it's enough or not. There are a lot of things in today's government and the way it's run that needs to be changed, but this isn't the thread for it.