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MUSΞ
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Gibs
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I'm glad there's no more offensive flags left flying! Anyway, heading over to Whitesboro for a bit. Anyone need anything?
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O|NoSoul
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They're just playing, stop seeing racism in everything...I'm glad there's no more offensive flags left flying! Anyway, heading over to Whitesboro for a bit. Anyone need anything?
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So you agree that many nations should fly the swastika? That WWII memorials should fly a Nazi Germany flag on par with the flag of the nation in which it resides?
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I think it depends on the context of where the flag is flown.
If it's at a museum, or memorial, or other history related place like a reenactment I see no problem with it. Because those places are meant to remind us to remember and discuss our history. As my uncle Ripley used to say "if we don't remember or talk about it, future generations are doomed to repeat it" (he was a WWII vet)
The confederate flag, however, should not be flown in places that represent our state, or federal government, like a courthouse, or state capitol building. That would be giving it the same place of honor as our national and/or state flags which a flag originally used to represent succession shouldn't have.
As for its being flown/represented on personal property, free speech is protected in the US whether I agree with the flag or not.
If it's at a museum, or memorial, or other history related place like a reenactment I see no problem with it. Because those places are meant to remind us to remember and discuss our history. As my uncle Ripley used to say "if we don't remember or talk about it, future generations are doomed to repeat it" (he was a WWII vet)
The confederate flag, however, should not be flown in places that represent our state, or federal government, like a courthouse, or state capitol building. That would be giving it the same place of honor as our national and/or state flags which a flag originally used to represent succession shouldn't have.
As for its being flown/represented on personal property, free speech is protected in the US whether I agree with the flag or not.
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Note: This post is not hate on southerners. I like several country folk and southerners, but this right here needs to be discussed. Rant Ahead.
I'm sitting here and laughing at some of the "Save the confederate flag" posts. They call us ignorant but they don't realize the confederate flag IS, in fact, about racism.
The confederate flag was put into use when South-Carolina succeeded from the union, BECAUSE the majority of people living in South-Carolina wanted to keep the right to own, sell and trade slaves. This was also used after the Civil war by southerners or other Americans who were pro-segregation and wanted to reinstall the philosophy of slavery into this country. And it's not just racism towards Blacks. Through the years, the confederate flag has been used to attack Mexicans, Asians, Muslims and yes, Jews.
This also begs an answer. A lot of pro-confederate-flaggers are asking the question: "Why is it okay for them to be racist towards us, but we get in trouble when we say it?" Well, here's your answer. No, it's not right when other races are racist towards whites. But, all-in-all, we kind of deserve it. Whites have attempted so many times to call themselves a superior race. Examples of this are the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan. THIS is why it's 'okay' for them to be racist towards us. Because our racism towards them was so terrible, that our country now has laws against racism towards blacks and other races.
How often do you see white racism? Not enough to consider passing an anti-racism law, that's for sure.
this was something I put on facebook.
I'm sitting here and laughing at some of the "Save the confederate flag" posts. They call us ignorant but they don't realize the confederate flag IS, in fact, about racism.
The confederate flag was put into use when South-Carolina succeeded from the union, BECAUSE the majority of people living in South-Carolina wanted to keep the right to own, sell and trade slaves. This was also used after the Civil war by southerners or other Americans who were pro-segregation and wanted to reinstall the philosophy of slavery into this country. And it's not just racism towards Blacks. Through the years, the confederate flag has been used to attack Mexicans, Asians, Muslims and yes, Jews.
This also begs an answer. A lot of pro-confederate-flaggers are asking the question: "Why is it okay for them to be racist towards us, but we get in trouble when we say it?" Well, here's your answer. No, it's not right when other races are racist towards whites. But, all-in-all, we kind of deserve it. Whites have attempted so many times to call themselves a superior race. Examples of this are the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan. THIS is why it's 'okay' for them to be racist towards us. Because our racism towards them was so terrible, that our country now has laws against racism towards blacks and other races.
How often do you see white racism? Not enough to consider passing an anti-racism law, that's for sure.
this was something I put on facebook.
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I could go into a long historical rant (and I probably will), since I focus more on the political history of the Civil War than I do the military aspects....But alas, people on both sides would get butthurt. The major issue is that the ACW is played out to be a tale of morality, instead of a complex period in US in which both sides were idiots. I'm going mostly limit this to the South, because the North had it's own issues that'd make this post 15 pages long.
A lot of misconceptions about the Civil War in modern "public memory" can be traced back to what's called the Lost Cause. Following the failures of Reconstruction in the South in the 1870s, people wanted to explain reasons for why the War happened. Since no one wanted to deal with the free slave issue any longer, slavery was removed and replaced with a nostalgic view of a past that never was. Before the war, slavery was the big topic issue of morality (That's why Kansas had a civil war of it's own in the 1850s, that's just how powerful it was of an issue). And from the 1880s to 1970s it was viewed as fact.
Post Reconstruction, the CS flag fades into nostaglic memory only to be seen at veteran circles and graves. It's not until 1915 with a the film "The Birth of Nation," in which the first KKK (many former CS soldiers) is portrayed as being heroic and charlvious, does the CS battleflag starts making a strong comeback. Then "Gone With the Wind" further expands Lost Cause POVs in the 1930s. Following WW2, you have it making a full comeback into the mainstream.
It's then with the 100th anniversary of the Civil War, which also happened to be the same time of the Civil Rights Movement that the flag is being used as a symbol of resistance. A reactionary resistance to a major social change. It's then following the passage of the Civil Rights Act that you see people starting to say "heritage not hate." Sadly, it's not that hard to see the biggest pushers of the early agenda were members of groups like the League of the South (a Southern Nationalist group).
"There were numerous causes for secession, but preservation of slavery was easily the most important of them. The confusion may come from blending the causes of secession with the causes of the war – which are separate but related issues. (Lincoln did not enter a military conflict to free the slaves but to put down a rebellion.)" No matter how hard you spin it, all you have to do is read period documents to know that the Confederate government was typical 19th century nationalist and followed the standard views that Anglo-Saxon Protestants were God's greatest invention since the wheel.
Another thing, the south was hardly as unified as the Modern South likes to remember. CS state governors often ignored the requests of Jefferson Davis and said that the capitol in Richmond was worse than DC. They also refused to grant each other's state armies much needed supplies. For example North Carolina was fairly self-sufficient and had surplus uniforms in stock. The governor of Georgia asked for some, and the governor of NC said "no, they are for my boys only!"
As for the Confederate enlisted men, there reasons for enlisting are more complex. Less black and white, if you will. You could say they were defending their homes from a perceived invasion, for adventure, etc. Many did defend slavery, because there was fear amongst farmers that freed blacks would take away jobs because they'd be cheap labor. The biggest amount of time that actual secessionists enlisted was in 1861. When their year long enlistments were up, the CS introduced the first draft in North American history, anyone from the ages of 18 to 45 were forced into service (later that was changed to 16 to 65). As well, the South was hardly as unified as modern Southerner like to believe. In general, those from the urban areas were more likely to be pro-secession, while rural areas weren't. For example, people tend to view Texas as a very solid CS state; however, entire German distinctions remained strong Unionist. There were anti-Confederate strongholds in the coastal regions of the Carolinas, Appalachia, and a few other regions. However, many of these men are forced into the CS Army. Add these factors into account and you'll find that as the war drags on, desertion rates are very high.
People also stress the CS was all about freeeeeedom from the government. Eh, they weren't so big on maintaining what we'd consider basic civil rights. In many ways, to live in the Confederate States at this time, you were less free than than in the US. You had to get passports just to pass from town to town, and have permission. Add in armed bands of Home Guard that acted like vigilantes against Unionists or men that went AWOL and you have a police state.
Tldr; people really do need to learn their history. Nostalgic history is bad and dumbs things down.
A lot of misconceptions about the Civil War in modern "public memory" can be traced back to what's called the Lost Cause. Following the failures of Reconstruction in the South in the 1870s, people wanted to explain reasons for why the War happened. Since no one wanted to deal with the free slave issue any longer, slavery was removed and replaced with a nostalgic view of a past that never was. Before the war, slavery was the big topic issue of morality (That's why Kansas had a civil war of it's own in the 1850s, that's just how powerful it was of an issue). And from the 1880s to 1970s it was viewed as fact.
Post Reconstruction, the CS flag fades into nostaglic memory only to be seen at veteran circles and graves. It's not until 1915 with a the film "The Birth of Nation," in which the first KKK (many former CS soldiers) is portrayed as being heroic and charlvious, does the CS battleflag starts making a strong comeback. Then "Gone With the Wind" further expands Lost Cause POVs in the 1930s. Following WW2, you have it making a full comeback into the mainstream.
It's then with the 100th anniversary of the Civil War, which also happened to be the same time of the Civil Rights Movement that the flag is being used as a symbol of resistance. A reactionary resistance to a major social change. It's then following the passage of the Civil Rights Act that you see people starting to say "heritage not hate." Sadly, it's not that hard to see the biggest pushers of the early agenda were members of groups like the League of the South (a Southern Nationalist group).
"There were numerous causes for secession, but preservation of slavery was easily the most important of them. The confusion may come from blending the causes of secession with the causes of the war – which are separate but related issues. (Lincoln did not enter a military conflict to free the slaves but to put down a rebellion.)" No matter how hard you spin it, all you have to do is read period documents to know that the Confederate government was typical 19th century nationalist and followed the standard views that Anglo-Saxon Protestants were God's greatest invention since the wheel.
Another thing, the south was hardly as unified as the Modern South likes to remember. CS state governors often ignored the requests of Jefferson Davis and said that the capitol in Richmond was worse than DC. They also refused to grant each other's state armies much needed supplies. For example North Carolina was fairly self-sufficient and had surplus uniforms in stock. The governor of Georgia asked for some, and the governor of NC said "no, they are for my boys only!"
As for the Confederate enlisted men, there reasons for enlisting are more complex. Less black and white, if you will. You could say they were defending their homes from a perceived invasion, for adventure, etc. Many did defend slavery, because there was fear amongst farmers that freed blacks would take away jobs because they'd be cheap labor. The biggest amount of time that actual secessionists enlisted was in 1861. When their year long enlistments were up, the CS introduced the first draft in North American history, anyone from the ages of 18 to 45 were forced into service (later that was changed to 16 to 65). As well, the South was hardly as unified as modern Southerner like to believe. In general, those from the urban areas were more likely to be pro-secession, while rural areas weren't. For example, people tend to view Texas as a very solid CS state; however, entire German distinctions remained strong Unionist. There were anti-Confederate strongholds in the coastal regions of the Carolinas, Appalachia, and a few other regions. However, many of these men are forced into the CS Army. Add these factors into account and you'll find that as the war drags on, desertion rates are very high.
People also stress the CS was all about freeeeeedom from the government. Eh, they weren't so big on maintaining what we'd consider basic civil rights. In many ways, to live in the Confederate States at this time, you were less free than than in the US. You had to get passports just to pass from town to town, and have permission. Add in armed bands of Home Guard that acted like vigilantes against Unionists or men that went AWOL and you have a police state.
Tldr; people really do need to learn their history. Nostalgic history is bad and dumbs things down.
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Dervish
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I never learned about the US Civil War in school, so a lot of that was either stuff I'd heard and forgotten or was pretty new to me. Neat!
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The ACW is not taught well at all. The main reason, it is that is a difficult period in history to fit into the normal school narrative of the US always being good and progressing towards a better tomorrow. I recommend watching Crash Course's two part history on the ACW.
And the important aftermath of the war.
And the important aftermath of the war.
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Atlas Child
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The North didn't really even care about slavery much either. The Emancipation Proclamation was largely a political move to dissuade European powers from supporting the south, as I think originally the south was banking on their cotton trade with England to secure provisions and firearms. Even after the end of the war a lot of the government support shown to freed slaves was to secure their votes for the republican party, which worked for a while as the democratic party in the south lost the majority of their power for a time. That paired with the attempt of certain Northern government officials to strip wealthy southern landowners of their property and redistribute it to freed slaves further fueled the black hate which was already rampant in the south.
In short, I agree with you. I think it's funny when people view the civil war as good vs bad, when really the Union was just as vile as the confederacy. Perhaps even more manipulative. Then again, I used to think people were over hyping the confederate flag as still standing for racism. However, just the other day some of my coworkers were talking about the issue, keep in mind I live in the south, and some of the remarks they made towards African Americans were really distasteful. After hearing the things they said I can't really defend the Confederate Flag as a purely historical thing anymore, because I know racist people who support it. To them, it clearly isn't just historical memorabilia but still a symbol which they identify with.
Confederate graveyards and museums, I get. However, a university in my town has a chapel dedicated to Robert E. Lee and used to have a confederate flag inside. They took it down because of some public pressure, which started a huge thing in my town with people protesting the school for taking it down. Sure, it's a building dedicated to the man but it's also a public university.
To me the flag always just meant southern pride, but to other people it's that last line of defense between them and African Americans. I'm not sure if i'm wording that well but hopefully you get the jist of what I'm saying.
I feel that flying the Confederate Flag falls under freedom of speech, so they should be allowed to keep flying it.
That said, flying it makes them look like a bunch of hicks desperately clinging to the past and if they want to move on and look like just a bunch of hicks they should take it down.
The only time it falls out of the freedom of speech bit is when a flag is flown instead of the United States flag (or any other country's, if it's done elsewhere.) at a government controlled location like a courthouse or something. Then it scootches on towards treason.
That said, flying it makes them look like a bunch of hicks desperately clinging to the past and if they want to move on and look like just a bunch of hicks they should take it down.
The only time it falls out of the freedom of speech bit is when a flag is flown instead of the United States flag (or any other country's, if it's done elsewhere.) at a government controlled location like a courthouse or something. Then it scootches on towards treason.
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Okay, so, I've now seen quite a few people calling freedom of speech on this. That doesn't really work though.
See, freedom of speech is a protection granted to citizens by the government. In expanded form it means "the government will not prevent you from expressing yourself as you wish" with some clarification bits about how things like harassment, threats, and inciting violence or other criminal activity are not protected by this. The problem with trying to apply freedom of speech to this is that it's the government itself that is flying this flag. The government does not have the right of freedom of speech. That is a right granted to citizens, and government bodies are not citizens; they are made up of elected and appointed citizens, but the governmental apparatus in and of itself is not counted as a citizen.
Freedom of speech only applies to citizens, so it's not a valid defense of the government flying a flag that citizens are objecting to.
See, freedom of speech is a protection granted to citizens by the government. In expanded form it means "the government will not prevent you from expressing yourself as you wish" with some clarification bits about how things like harassment, threats, and inciting violence or other criminal activity are not protected by this. The problem with trying to apply freedom of speech to this is that it's the government itself that is flying this flag. The government does not have the right of freedom of speech. That is a right granted to citizens, and government bodies are not citizens; they are made up of elected and appointed citizens, but the governmental apparatus in and of itself is not counted as a citizen.
Freedom of speech only applies to citizens, so it's not a valid defense of the government flying a flag that citizens are objecting to.
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Cpt Toellner
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Can we start looking for replacements for the National Anthem yet?
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Protagonist
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I would argue that the government technically has freedom of speech, for the same reason corporations do.
Having said that, politicians seeking re-election are well within their right to change flags around.
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