Engagement Ring Discussion; Is Tradition Overrated?

[Kestrel]

I actually like reading this thread for perspective. Not dumb arguments. You see, I do like to learn. Please don't poison the well. *insert debate-tag reference*

 

[Dervish]

I actually like reading this thread for perspective. Not dumb arguments. You see, I do like to learn. Please don't poison the well. *insert debate-tag reference*

I was trying to think of a way to put it, but you put it rather nicely.

Chill, guys. Respect other people's opinions and all that good shit.

 

[Brovo]

Your value function can exist on its own merits without being disparaging

Herr Ubermensch-Utilitarian.

It's also more compact. You, however, have not answer my question about whether you dislike of anything with a high markup, or it just happens to be jewelry, which carries a value proposition you don't seem capable of understanding.

Don't use sjw speak to deflect your inability to understand other people's utility functions.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

I've been trying to find this Ad for YEARS! XD

Thanks. :3

 

[unanun]

Here's my problem: the basic point of this topic is that the sale price of jewelry, particularly diamond engagement rings, is marked up way beyond what most people in this thread perceive it's value for. This means that most of you don't consider this particular item worth your money, in fact it's way below what you think it is worth.

So I'm here to understand why.

Is it unethical business practice? Can't be, because you can source ethical, expensive jewelry.

So you simply don't believe it is worth it. But here the level of dismissal is strange because:
- Did a brand ever sway your decision? Made in America?
- Have you ever purchased something that costed more than goods + labour? In other words, did you attach an intangible value to it?
- Did you ever pay for design? Or aesthetics?

If so, it would be a bit ... ironic, to say someone was tricked by clever advertising into valuing and wanting an engagement ring, because then you would be just as capable of attaching more value to a good than how much it costed to produce. It's like you believe your viewpoint is somehow objectively correct, because reading through this thread words like overrated, silly, and stupid kept leaping out of the page.

When I was shopping for a ring for my fiancee, most of her friends told her that it needed to be $5k+. She just wanted something nice, something of quality. I checked for alternative gemstones and went online to poke around. If symbolism constitutes the bulk of a ring (and symbolism is free), then I certainly spent way more than free. I'd say the money I spent on my ring was worth it.

(That certainly doesn't make her materialistic. Ouch, that was dismissive!)

 

[Dervish]

Here's my problem: the basic point of this topic is that the sale price of jewelry, particularly diamond engagement rings, is marked up way beyond what most people in this thread perceive it's value for. This means that most of you don't consider this particular item worth your money, in fact it's way below what you think it is worth.

So I'm here to understand why.

Is it unethical business practice? Can't be, because you can source ethical, expensive jewelry.

So you simply don't believe it is worth it. But here the level of dismissal is strange because:
- Did a brand ever sway your decision? Made in America?
- Have you ever purchased something that costed more than goods + labour? In other words, did you attach an intangible value to it?
- Did you ever pay for design? Or aesthetics?

If so, it would be a bit ... ironic, to say someone was tricked by clever advertising into valuing and wanting an engagement ring, because then you would be just as capable of attaching more value to a good than how much it costed to produce. It's like you believe your viewpoint is somehow objectively correct, because reading through this thread words like overrated, silly, and stupid kept leaping out of the page.

When I was shopping for a ring for my fiancee, most of her friends told her that it needed to be $5k+. She just wanted something nice, something of quality. I checked for alternative gemstones and went online to poke around. If symbolism constitutes the bulk of a ring (and symbolism is free), then I certainly spent way more than free. I'd say the money I spent on my ring was worth it.

(That certainly doesn't make her materialistic. Ouch, that was dismissive!)

The problem with the entirety of the diamond industry is that it's monopolized by De Beers, and with it's affiliated businesses makes up around 80-85% of all the diamonds sold in the world. All those little stores you see around town competing with each other have to go to Belgium and auction against each other because that's where the very limited stock is released. The reason it's very limited is because De Beers and affiliates either buy up all the diamonds or own the mining companies and they stockpile them, releasing a very limited amount each year so it creates demand and drives up the prices. This makes it very difficult for unaffiliated companies to compete, so they often have to overinflate their own prices to stay competitive, and synthetic diamonds aren't as widespread or popular because they're not "real". Throw in everybody in Western civilization being told and subjected to cultural norms that keep telling them that you have to buy an expensive diamond ring to propose to your wife, and the pressure from society for a man to prove his worth by not cheaping out on any aspect of engagment and weddings, you have a self-feeding system that has only been around for 3 generations but it is so deeply ingrained in cultural norms because of very crafty and widespread advertisements and continuous social reinforcement, it all but guarantees that the vast majority of people will be buying a diamond, and because of the artificial inflation by the limited yearly releases, they cost way more than they're actually worth.

So, yeah. Most of the people in this thread are aware of what's going on with that industry and are leaning towards alternative gemstones. Some admit they know about all of that but still wanted diamonds, which I sincerely hope nobody's judging them for. People's beef is with the monolothic diamond monopoly, not an individual's personal choice.

To put this in another light, let's say Apple figured out the value of rare Earth metals before everyone else did and quickly started buying up all of the inventories of producers and establishing themselves as the sole company that produces and distributes rare earth metals. So the use the lion's share to produce iPhones and tablets, and they sell the REMs to other companies at a marked up price that they can fix because they established a monopoly before anyone really realized how valuable REMs are, say before the profilation of cell phone ownership. These companies also make smart phones and tablets, but they cost twice as much as an iPhone because a key component is sold by their competitor at a heavily marked up price.

That's exactly what happened with the diamond industry.

 

[Dervish]

Quick update: Turns out there was a lawsuit called the De Beers Antitrust Litigation back in 2004 that forced the company to pay out massive compensation and that it would abide by an established bit of anti-monopolization legislation, effectively putting an end to 60 years of crushing dominance.

So, my facts were still largely on the ball, just maybe not as applicable for the current market, which I'll have to read up on a bit more.

 

[Jorick]

@unanun, stop being dense. Some people don't place much value in aesthetics, and that's what the high price of jewelry pays for: something pretty. The talk about bullshit nonsense in pricing was largely directed at diamonds because diamond prices have been absolutely and without a doubt jacked up by shady business practices, but the general anti-jewelry sentiment is about paying lots of money for something that just looks nice and serves no other purpose. One can be very much against the diamond racket for ethical reasons and also dislike the general high price of jewelry for other reasons. People are complicated creatures like that.

@Dervish the De Beers antitrust litigation just allowed others to get in on the nonsense and profit from the way they rigged the market. Diamond prices have remained pretty stagnant, adjusting for inflation, since the mid 80s.

 

[Dervish]

@unanun, stop being dense. Some people don't place much value in aesthetics, and that's what the high price of jewelry pays for: something pretty. The talk about bullshit nonsense in pricing was largely directed at diamonds because diamond prices have been absolutely and without a doubt jacked up by shady business practices, but the general anti-jewelry sentiment is about paying lots of money for something that just looks nice and serves no other purpose. One can be very much against the diamond racket for ethical reasons and also dislike the general high price of jewelry for other reasons. People are complicated creatures like that.

@Dervish the De Beers antitrust litigation just allowed others to get in on the nonsense and profit from the way they rigged the market. Diamond prices have remained pretty stagnant, adjusting for inflation, since the mid 80s.

Three cheers for unhappy endings! Thanks for saving me an hour or two of discovering that it's the same shit in a different pile.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

STAHP!

 

[Kestrel]

Fine. If even Dervish joins this BS I'm gonna go against my better judgement and throw in my two cents.

When I was shopping for a ring for my fiancee, most of her friends told her that it needed to be $5k+. She just wanted something nice, something of quality. I checked for alternative gemstones and went online to poke around. If symbolism constitutes the bulk of a ring (and symbolism is free), then I certainly spent way more than free. I'd say the money I spent on my ring was worth it.

Good for you. If you feel the money was worth it for you, that is absolutely fine. That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'm not going to argue that. Nobody in this thread is going to argue that. Do what makes you happy. You're not hurting anyone with buying an expensive engagement ring. Really. Good for you. Congratulations and I wish you all the best. However that does not mean others are like you. They have different values and feelings. Just because they do not align with your view does not mean they are wrong. That does not mean they don't understand the situation (because that is a dismissive piece of crap you throw around a lot,) it just means they interpret it differently based on their feelings and experiences.

(That certainly doesn't make her materialistic. Ouch, that was dismissive!)

Cat comes out of the bag.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you take all this shit too personal. To pick a lighter example ('cause I really don't want to involve your fiancee who I've never met) the reason I don't reply further to you in the Mad Max thread is because you are dismissing me for unable to grasp concepts because you appreciate them and I don't. I could reply and explain why I don't like the movie. Characters show a range of two, at best three emotions, trying to tearjerk doesn't mix with the rule of cool theme and hurts immersion, choreography and assets are cool but tactics are 'throw enough mooks at it' and the Stockholm syndrome was both cringeworthy and insignificant to the overall story, and so forth. However, the reason I didn't is because you're going to go dismiss every single argument and make backhanded claims about my supposed inferiority, just because you see things differently. Here you're doing the exact same thing, but about fucking engagement rings. Do you know who else use these tactics?

Raging fanboys.

Now sure, you're a little more eloquent than the stereotype human SASUKE-IS-A-BADASS flagship. However, a raging fanboy acts like this because when someone says they don't like something they like, they consider it a personal attack. So they retort with, you guessed it, personal attacks.

Now my train of thought is, when I see a reply devaluing my intelligence for having a different interpretation is "Yeah no fuck that noise. I don't have anything to gain from this, so why waste time on a reply?" Unfortunately, it seems others do not share this sentiment. And I see you doing it again. This does irk me. Any attention, even negative attention, apparently gives you a form of satisfaction, teaching you your actions are of merit. But they're not. They're destructive. You don't gain anything but frustration from it. Others don't gain anything but frustration from it. There's hardly new arguments coming in and the posts are filled with quips and jabs. We've passed the learning station and are right on the tracks for argument town. This is a cancer. It needs to be cut out. This is why I am writing this reply.

Whether it comes to some movie, engagement rings, or whether elephants could be genetically engineered to fly like Dumbo, I don't care. If someone disagrees with you or has different values, rather than start an argument, fucking deal with it on your end. If you want to learn more about their perspective, ask neutral questions without pushing your own ideas onto them, because if you do your interest isn't genuine. tl;dr Quit acting like a raging fanboy.

Fuck.

---

Now, on-topic, because this shit has gone on long enough. Should I ever be talked into a marriage or similar ceremony, I will most likely do what I do for birthdays of a partner; make something with my own hands. If that turns out to be jewellery, here's what I'd do. I know a guy who knows a guy, who can meld silver. So what I'd probably do is, after some research, get a sketchbook and start trying to visualise something personal and symbolic to our relationship. Have some very mysterious phonecalls and meet-ups with people close to us to ask for feedback. Adjust the design accordingly. Turn it into a 3d model. Print that (for which I also know a guy). Pour the silver in it. Make it a necklace or bracelet (because you can get more creative with the shape without it being a fucking hassle like a ring would be to make) and offer that. It might not be as expensive in monetary values, but I feel my own work and creativity outweighs that cost if it's meant to symbolise how much a person means to you.

There. Something constructive to the thread.

 

[Peter Feels]

---

Now, on-topic, because this shit has gone on long enough. Should I ever be talked into a marriage or similar ceremony, I will most likely do what I do for birthdays of a partner; make something with my own hands. If that turns out to be jewellery, here's what I'd do. I know a guy who knows a guy, who can meld silver. So what I'd probably do is, after some research, get a sketchbook and start trying to visualise something personal and symbolic to our relationship. Have some very mysterious phonecalls and meet-ups with people close to us to ask for feedback. Adjust the design accordingly. Turn it into a 3d model. Print that (for which I also know a guy). Pour the silver in it. Make it a necklace or bracelet (because you can get more creative with the shape without it being a fucking hassle like a ring would be to make) and offer that. It might not be as expensive in monetary values, but I feel my own work and creativity outweighs that cost if it's meant to symbolise how much a person means to you.

There. Something constructive to the thread.

This guy gets it.

 

[Robeatics]

I'm of the opinion that a ring should represent the couple or the half of the couple that will wear it. I could see myself wearing a simple stained band with some nice carvings. I'm not all about fancy rings or super expensive shit, just a nice personal service somewhere in nature and a reception more like a family BBQ (though minus a lot of actual BBQ because that shit is gross).

 

[Drakel]

I had an opinion, then a shitstorm came...

I feel like I'm just going to stay inside, drink a bit and play cardgames in candle light until the storm passes and my power comes back on. :/

 

[Dervish]

I'm of the opinion that a ring should represent the couple or the half of the couple that will wear it. I could see myself wearing a simple stained band with some nice carvings. I'm not all about fancy rings or super expensive shit, just a nice personal service somewhere in nature and a reception more like a family BBQ (though minus a lot of actual BBQ because that shit is gross).

just a nice personal service somewhere in nature and a reception more like a family BBQ (though minus a lot of actual BBQ because that shit is gross).

(though minus a lot of actual BBQ because that shit is gross).

that shit is gross).

that shit is gross).

>:[ GET OUT.

 

[Dervish]

I had an opinion, then a shitstorm came...

I feel like I'm just going to stay inside, drink a bit and play cardgames in candle light until the storm passes and my power comes back on. :/

NO COME BACK.

We have candy.

And BBQ.

Looking at you, Robeatics. I thought we were friends.

 

[unanun]

Dervish: I read the atlantic article too. I already controlled for that by discussing the idea of cartel free, but still expensive, jewelry: an attempt to show that it is expensive because some people place higher value on it. Your viewpoint has been reinforced strongly by this thread, but I'm trying to show you that there are perfectly reasonable people who can also like pretty things and are willing to pay more for them. For example, let's discuss rings ...

In a ring, the gemstone quality matters. The amount mined, i.e. the supply doesn't matter, because only a small fraction will have the so called 4 C's of diamond quality. And in a lab grown gem, those things are don't just come free - you have many machines (CVD? PVD? HPHT?) that need to be tuned, and running them isn't cheap. In fact, research and development in lab gems is pretty hard simply because they're such robust materials. Faceting the gems isn't a trivial process, and I'm willing to bet the precious metal comes at a significant markup because not enough is purchased for a bulk price. Then there's the hidden cost of design - one large source of Apple's markup. Sure, there's a markup just like any other business (and let's ignore the debeers cartel for a now). But it's definitely not as cheap as just looking up the constituent prices in wolfram alpha.

Put another way, there's no extra value to a nicely architectured house, or flattering clothing. But they both add intangible value to your life, and there are people who buy em. Same principle, perhaps stretched, applies to jewelry.

Kestrel: Let's do a little thought experiment:

Jorrick says:

You're living proof that advertising and marketing work and are very effective, that's all. :D

unanun fatalrendezvous quips:

You know, just because you don't understand why girls like jewelry, doesn't mean they've been manipulated by BF Skinner's descendants ...

Jorrick replies:

Jewelry is one thing, paying big bucks for a relatively common stone that is ridiculously overpriced due to extremely shady supply control and deceptive marketing is another. Nobody has said anything about having a problem with women liking jewelry, just the extremely high prices, especially as it concerns diamonds. This isn't at all an attack on women, and in reality men are just as susceptible to the manipulative business and marketing practices around diamonds (see ads aimed at men about how diamonds show a woman that you care because "diamonds are forever"), so rein in the social justice horse there pal. :P

~

Some people don't place much value in aesthetics, and that's what the high price of jewelry pays for: something pretty.

Okay, I understand where you're coming from now.

Anywho, those are my closing thoughts on the topic.

 

[Robeatics]

>:[ GET OUT.

You can't silence me! Death to BBQ! Its only saving grace is baked beans and side dishes! Death to BBQ! Death to BBQ!

 

[Dervish]

You can't silence me! Death to BBQ! Its only saving grace is baked beans and side dishes! Death to BBQ! Death to BBQ!

COME OVER HERE AND GET SOME MOTHERFUCKIN' RIBS. I'LL TEACH YOU THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS.

Ahem.

@unanun , no, I definitely understand where you're coming from, and I respect that. You asked,

Here's my problem: the basic point of this topic is that the sale price of jewelry, particularly diamond engagement rings, is marked up way beyond what most people in this thread perceive it's value for. This means that most of you don't consider this particular item worth your money, in fact it's way below what you think it is worth.

So I'm here to understand why.

So I wanted to reiterate the problem people have. I certainly did not intend to come across as making it sound like people who don't care/ still want to do the traditional diamond thing are wrong, because that would defeat the point of having a discussion in the first place. All I wanted to convey with my reply to you was the diamond industry was a bit different than say the automotive industry where some people want to buy an aircraft carrier-priced Ferrari with human-leather seats and wooly mammoth carpets that's assembled in the most prestigious sentient science fiction factory and all of the workers have to wear tuxedos to work with fine white gloves as opposed to an affordable Soviet-made GAZ Volga that was assembled in 40 minutes by underpaid and disgruntled workers who may or may not have hid body parts under the floor board when the bored shift supervisor was looking at some contraband Penthouse magazine that was smuggled in by his buddy Oleg, who is a member of the Politburo and can get his hands on Western contraband.

While I made my issues with the diamond industry known, I certainly wouldn't judge anyone who buys one or question their value for buying something like that. Hopefully you didn't take any of that as a personal attack or anything like that, I just wanted to explain exactly where people are coming from, not try to prove you wrong about your stance or anything like that. We're all friends here, I'm trying to keep the topic argument free and respectful. Doesn't always happen because loltheinternet, but at least nobody's called anybody else a genuine cocksucker yet.

 

[unanun]

Thank you, Dervish.