Bayonetta OP in Smash?

[SacredWarrior]

Then maybe stop giving fuel to blow up the cycle to uncontrollable extents?

Stating my opinions isn't giving fuel. Even if I were in a forum and said casually that Bayonetta was my main or that I didn't like Melee, chances are a competitive player will just be rude. It happens often in the Smash community. I fail to see how I'm giving fuel.

 

[Shiri]

What is this big worst case scenario nerf you're afraid of? My competitive gaming experience is limited to MOBAs and card games, but typically(in my experience) changes made at a competitive level don't effect casuals much unless its a complete overhaul. Is it different for Smash? If its not, I guess I don't get why pro-scene changes matter if you're not on the pro end of the spectrum.

Feast or famine characters often get talked about because they are inherently hard to balance. They need a lot of damage up front, but exactly how much damage to put on them is always in danger of too much or too little. At the end of the day the developers have the true data to decide whether or not a change is needed. If you think you are truly right then there's nothing to be afraid of.

 

[SacredWarrior]

What is this big worst case scenario nerf you're afraid of?

Every character that is considered top-tier being nerfed because of complaints in vain attempts to balance the game. It's a never-ending cycle in Smash.

 

[Windsong]

Every character that is considered top-tier being nerfed because of complaints in vain attempts to balance the game. It's a never-ending cycle in Most Competitive Online Gaming.

Fixed that for you.

It's not just the Smash communities that this happens in. Everyone wants their favorite character to be viable. This is true everywhere. If a character is OP because the thousands of players in the community, including the 'toxic elitists' that dedicate themselves to it far more than any casual would. The devs usually take notice, far more often than if it's a release and forget game.

 

[Silent]

Every character that is considered top-tier being nerfed because of complaints in vain attempts to balance the game. It's a never-ending cycle in Smash.

Welcome to the world of Gaming. This isn't inclusive to Smash. Every game that has a competitive scene goes though the nerfs/buffs in order to balance the game. No game will ever be perfectly balanced, and the idea that they will is very ignorant of the Casual scene.

In every game this happens. It runs in cycles where one character/Class over another will be OP. It will be nerfed in favor of another character/class.

 

[Shiri]

Every character that is considered top-tier being nerfed because of complaints in vain attempts to balance the game. It's a never-ending cycle in Smash.

Not sure why that's a bad thing. Shouldn't we strive to not have a top-tier and put all characters in balance?

 

[Rain of the Night]

Stating my opinions isn't giving fuel. Even if I were in a forum and said casually that Bayonetta was my main or that I didn't like Melee, chances are a competitive player will just be rude. It happens often in the Smash community. I fail to see how I'm giving fuel.

Well, see, this isn't a Super Smash Brawl forum. This is Iwaku. Your thread was put up as a 'Discussion' thread, not a "Gaming" thread. Your INITIAL input into the subject is how the Competitive players are whiners and elitists and how Bayonetta is fine the way she is and that changing her would be stupid. This immediately entices people to respond with their own opinion. The difference is:

THOSE WHO WERE PUTTING THEIR OPINION IN THIS THREAD (Other than you) WERE BEING POLITE, CIVIL AND TRYING TO MAKE A POINT.

Though one of the responses could be deemed rude towards your opinion, ultimately, people here were trying to tell you how they view and what they discovered. You come in and deny what they say with some facts (Which is good, it's what your supposed to do in a discussion). But, they then came in and explained it further or simply left without adding to the conversation. Luna brought in many counter arguments to the facts you brought (And some that she took your word for). Again, you straight deny them, but instead of bringing facts, you did this:

GET GOOD, PROFESSIONALS! IF YOUR SO GOOD, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO ADAPT, RIGHT?

And

THEY CAN'T CHANGE HER STYLE CAUSE IT FITS HER HOME GAME.

1. The Professionals (Sorry, Competitive. Professional sounds off for this...), I am sure, are AWARE of the weaknesses and strengths of said character. However, they have expressed that her strengths heavily outweigh her weaknesses, in which you said:

BULLOCKS! SHE HAS WEAKNESSES THAT CAN EASILY BE EXPLOITED...

But Competitive players also KNOW of these weaknesses and mitigate it by adapting to whoever they are playing against. Competitive players who see someone who is easy to play and has weaknesses that can surpassed by precision play (and a generally stronger kit), will go for her because it makes victories easy, or even too easy because she is not well balanced.

2. Competitive VS Casual in terms of "fitting" in their play style.

Casual: Will be pleased to see that the video game feel of Bayonetta is implemented in Smash Bros and is a blast to play.

Competitive: They care little for where she came from or how she fights in her original game; they look at the mechanics and see that it is highly unorthodox to the current game, which leads it to be unbalanced.

-----------------------------

And if you play casually... What do you care if they nerf/buff anyone? You'll play Bayonetta regardless, no?

PS: With everything you have said, the facts you brought and the attitude you have towards it, you either:

1. Play seriously or have a serious commitment to the game
2. You are upset your main is being targeted (Rather it be fairly or unfairly)
3. You were upset because of how the Smash community treated you as the player.

 

[SacredWarrior]

Not sure why that's a bad thing. Shouldn't we strive to not have a top-tier and put all characters in balance?

In most fighting games that will indeed work, but not in Smash. It wasn't designed to be competitive. Even Sakurai has said this many times. Melee only became competitive because of the glitches that the top players exploited. A lot of people don't know this but Melee was unfinished and pretty glitchy which allowed it to be competitive apparently.

I don't mind nerfs and buffs and yes they are necessary. Coming from someone whose main fighting game is Dead or Alive, I highly appreciate them. But if the game isn't designed to be competitive in the first place, don't try to make it competitive. That just looks foolish.

 

[SacredWarrior]

They care little for where she came from or how she fights in her original game; they look at the mechanics and see that it is highly unorthodox to the current game, which leads it to be unbalanced.

Why isn't this being said for Ryu then? It can apply to him too. He's also considered to be a very good character.

You were upset because of how the Smash community treated you as the player.

Mainly this. Try hearing "You only won because you used _______" so many times online and in real life. It gets annoying after a while. Trust me.

 

[Silent]

Not sure why that's a bad thing. Shouldn't we strive to not have a top-tier and put all characters in balance?

It's not. It's a positive thing devs do in order to keep the objectionable balance ever evolving. It has to be in order for a game to get as close to being 'perfectly' balance as it possibly can. But casual players often don't see how this effects the high end players, those that are 'elitist', playing either in a competitive or professional aspect. Most often these checks and balances don't ever truly effect the causal players.

I don't mind nerfs and buffs and yes they are necessary. Coming from someone whose main fighting game is Dead or Alive, I highly appreciate them. But if the game isn't designed to be competitive in the first place, don't try to make it competitive. That just looks foolish.

Any game can be competitive or have professional following. The fact you don't believe there should be, doesn't make it foolish.

Why isn't this being said for Ryu then? It can apply to him too. He's also considered to be a very good character.

How do you know devs aren't looking at him? Just because the 'community' hasn't spoken? Lets not assume that just because players haven't opened their mouths, devs aren't targeting certain characters. You can't even assume they will target Bayonetta.

This whole thing has come across as rant to not pick on me as player. Don't pick on my main because I love her. And yes, I'll agree no one wants to feel like they are being targeted for something that's obviously a dev issue-- however, it's a game. At the end of the day, if your character is op or not, it doesn't cost you anything tangible. #firstworldissues

 

[SacredWarrior]

Any game can be competitive or have professional following.

Going by that logic, I guess I should expect to see Kingdom Hearts tournaments soon? :P That would be great!

 

[Yatagarasu]

Going by that logic, I guess I should expect to see Kingdom Hearts tournaments soon? :P That would be great!

...

There are Kingdom Hearts tournaments...albeit not extremely popular

 

[Mu]

But if the game isn't designed to be competitive in the first place, don't try to make it competitive. That just looks foolish.

Any game can be competitive or have professional following. The fact you don't believe there should be, doesn't make it foolish.

Going by that logic, I guess I should expect to see Kingdom Hearts tournaments soon? :P That would be great!

This.

Sakurai just wanted to make a game for everyone to enjoy. Casual players and competitive players. Therefore he needs to cater to both sides. There is always research going on about the game's balance and how the developers can fix it and release new patches to make it fun for all parties. If a large majority of people think Bayonetta is overpowered, of course they would look at it. Why would any developers not?

Also, the game(s) has been competitive since 2002, I'm sure by now the developers think about that when they develop the game. So, yes. In a way it is designed to be more competitive-friendly.

"If people want to play seriously 1v1, they should do that, and if people simply want to enjoy the game, they should do so. There might even be people who only like to play with their amiibo. I think it's good that there are so many different ways to enjoy this game."

"If we direct Smash ONLY at the competitive players, it will have no future."

Which it is not. Otherwise Sakurai would have made the game fast paced and made damage outputs crazy. No, it's a game anyone can pick up and play.

 

[SacredWarrior]

...

There are Kingdom Hearts tournaments...albeit not extremely popular

WHERE?!!

 

[Yatagarasu]

WHERE?!!

LOL sorry got your hopes up

I think they are all implemented within the game though, not exactly like SSB4 tournaments

Albeit they're still called tournaments -shrug-

 

[SacredWarrior]

LOL sorry got your hopes up

I think they are all implemented within the game though, not exactly like SSB4 tournaments

Albeit they're still called tournaments -shrug-

You mean like Critical Mode Level 1 speedruns?

 

[Brovo]

 

[Shiri]

In most fighting games that will indeed work, but not in Smash. It wasn't designed to be competitive. Even Sakurai has said this many times. Melee only became competitive because of the glitches that the top players exploited. A lot of people don't know this but Melee was unfinished and pretty glitchy which allowed it to be competitive apparently.

I don't mind nerfs and buffs and yes they are necessary. Coming from someone whose main fighting game is Dead or Alive, I highly appreciate them. But if the game isn't designed to be competitive in the first place, don't try to make it competitive. That just looks foolish.

Well, if there are buffs and nerfs being given I think that the company is helping ship the game as competitive at this point. Nintendo, like many companies, loves publicity and tournaments are a good way of doing it.

If you don't mind buffs and nerfs then what is this thread about? Because the title and opening post is very misleading.

 

[SacredWarrior]

If you don't mind buffs and nerfs then what is this thread about? Because the title and opening post is very misleading.

Because I don't want another Smash character being nerfed unnecessarily before people even give her a chance and test her out against other characters.

 

[Brovo]

Because I don't want another Smash character being nerfed unnecessarily before people even give her a chance and test her out against other characters.

Well, considering the company has data access to all of the online multiplayer matches, that's presumably already hundreds of thousands of matches (if not millions) of Bayonetta matches to compile data from. Within 24 hours of her going live they've likely already got at least a dozen matches reflecting every potential match-up she could end up in. I don't play smash, but I remember a League of Legends dev article talking about why they could do hot fix patches so rapidly if necessary to touch a power spike down on new releases, and it was because they had thousands of matches of data to composite every few minutes. This included data like distance traveled, average movement speed, damage spikes, damage over time, how often X or Y threshold was reached by players, they could arrange players into categories based on win/loss ratio, number of matches played in total or just with that character, et cetera.

These developers have been doing their job for several years. They have tons of aggregate data they can pull from to make decisions about whether or not to adjust the numbers on any particular character. If it ends up hurting your favourite character, that's not bias to the competitive community: That's the developer making the conscious decision, based on the numbers, to tweak a character to better fit their vision of the game. If that hurts your feelings, then stop playing the damn game online, it's not that important. You can learn how to play the new Bayonetta and take pride in becoming an even better player with that character via gaining victories even though the odds are less in your favour. You can play a different character online. You could play the singleplayer, you could play only with your friends, you could play a different video game (of which there are thousands of games online right now you could play). You could watch a movie--Netflix is only $9.99 and has fucking thousands of things to watch. You could go on YouTube and listen to political rant videos, or go outside and enjoy the weather.

The best part is, all of this would avoid blasting @☆Luna☆ who just wanted to give you another perspective on a video game. A video game with plumbers that throw fire balls, and multiple magical princesses, and god knows what other wacky party shit the game is supposed to use to entertain you.

Take a chill pill, mate. I don't want to put you on blast, or say you're a bad person, cuz' you ain't, but you really need to relax. Listen to some Simon and Garfunkle and really think about why this matters so much to you.