Bayonetta OP in Smash?

[SacredWarrior]

Let me boil it down to one sentence.

I don't like that Bayonetta's depth is limited to the decision of when to witch time and how to combo.

The nerf did not change this aspect of her character.

Naturally I want some characters to be buffed, although I disagree about sheik and zero suit needing them, but the reason we aren't talking about them is because this thread is about Bayonetta.

The aspect of her character can't be changed cause that was how she played in the games she's from. Since you obviously haven't played them, let me break it down for you:

In the Bayonetta games, she relies on combos to defeat enemies and has to dodge perfectly in order to use Witch Time. She reads her opponents and exploits their vulnerabilities while making sure her foes don't do the same to her.

This carried over to Smash Bros and now people are bitching about it for dumb reasons. No nerf is going to change how Bayonetta plays. Her depth is limited that way because that's how she originally was in her home series. Ryu from Street Fighter is also considered to be top-tier and he has the same fighting style from his home series as well.

Got it memorized now? If you played Bayonetta 1 and 2 (which you apparently did not), then you would know this by now. She's not going to be nerfed because there's not much to nerf. If she's such an issue, try banning her from tournaments and see how everyone reacts. Oh wait that's not gonna happen. Or better yet don't fight against anyone who uses her until you learn how to adapt and beat her.

 

[☆Luna☆]

The aspect of her character can't be changed cause that was how she played in the games she's from. Since you obviously haven't played them, let me break it down for you:

In the Bayonetta games, she relies on combos to defeat enemies and has to dodge perfectly in order to use Witch Time. She reads her opponents and exploits their vulnerabilities while making sure her foes don't do the same to her.

This carried over to Smash Bros and now people are bitching about it for dumb reasons. No nerf is going to change how Bayonetta plays. Her depth is limited that way because that's how she originally was in her home series.

Got it memorized now? If you played Bayonetta 1 and 2 (which you apparently did not), then you would know this by now. She's not going to be nerfed because there's not much to nerf. If she's such an issue, try banning her from tournaments and see how everyone reacts. Oh wait that's not gonna happen.

Which is why I suggested that she be changed by making Witch Time function more like rest. It would more reflect that feeling of dodging perfectly, and give her a proper downside for having such an awesome combo game. It would make missing a read actually feel devastating like in her games while making her fit into Smash.

But I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I don't feel comfortable continuing. Speaking frankly, your argument style feels hostile. It involves assuming the worst out of people who are not here to defend themselves. Maybe I'm just frustrated that it doesn't really feel like you even want to understand why people are upset, and instead want to point out how stupid and irrelevant their concerns are. Please don't take this as a personal slight. You are a wonderful person. I just wouldn't feel comfortable just leaving without explanation.

 

[Rain of the Night]

@Grumpy

Might as well close this now. All I see is "I'm right, you're wrong." And no actual discussion.

 

[Asuras]

Wait I don't understand. Are you asking this question expecting a Smash game to be balanced in the first place?

 

[SacredWarrior]

Wait I don't understand. Are you asking this question expecting a Smash game to be balanced in the first place?

Errrrr no. I already says my piece about Bayo in Smash

 

[Dervish]

Well, this was the most condencending topics I've seen towards another member in a long-time. You need to stop being aggressively argumentative about pretty much every topic you start, Sacred.

 

[SacredWarrior]

Well, this was the most condencending topics I've seen towards another member in a long-time. You need to stop being aggressively argumentative about pretty much every topic you start, Sacred.

I wasn't aiming this towards another member. I was stating my opinion about Bayonetta in Smash. How am I being aggressively argumentative? All I really want is proof that Bayonetta is truly OP in Smash without relying on competitive players (who aren't even that good at fighting games). Expressing an opinion isn't being aggressively argumentative. If I disagree, I disagree. Offensive is taken, not given.

 

[Sidhe]

I wasn't aiming this towards another member. I was stating my opinion about Bayonetta in Smash. How am I being aggressively argumentative? All I really want is proof that Bayonetta is truly OP in Smash without relying on competitive players (who aren't even that good at fighting games). Expressing an opinion isn't being aggressively argumentative. If I disagree, I disagree. Offensive is taken, not given.

"Got it memorized now? If you played Bayonetta 1 and 2 (which you apparently did not), then you would know this by now. She's not going to be nerfed because there's not much to nerf. If she's such an issue, try banning her from tournaments and see how everyone reacts. Oh wait that's not gonna happen."

I don't know how someone could read this and not see 'aggressively argumentative.' Everything about just this short paragraph is rude and condescending, and that's only one paragraph out of many you wrote during this conversation.

 

[Rain of the Night]

The aspect of her character can't be changed cause that was how she played in the games she's from. Since you obviously haven't played them, let me break it down for you:

In the Bayonetta games, she relies on combos to defeat enemies and has to dodge perfectly in order to use Witch Time. She reads her opponents and exploits their vulnerabilities while making sure her foes don't do the same to her.

This carried over to Smash Bros and now people are bitching about it for dumb reasons. No nerf is going to change how Bayonetta plays. Her depth is limited that way because that's how she originally was in her home series. Ryu from Street Fighter is also considered to be top-tier and he has the same fighting style from his home series as well.

Got it memorized now? If you played Bayonetta 1 and 2 (which you apparently did not), then you would know this by now. She's not going to be nerfed because there's not much to nerf. If she's such an issue, try banning her from tournaments and see how everyone reacts. Oh wait that's not gonna happen. Or better yet don't fight against anyone who uses her until you learn how to adapt and beat her.

I wasn't aiming this towards another member. I was stating my opinion about Bayonetta in Smash. How am I being aggressively argumentative? All I really want is proof that Bayonetta is truly OP in Smash without relying on competitive players (who aren't even that good at fighting games). Expressing an opinion isn't being aggressively argumentative. If I disagree, I disagree. Offensive is taken, not given.

I will give you one thing: you are allowed to disagree.

In Red = Clearly belittling them for not knowing Bayonetta
In Green = A way of writing that clearly tells people to shut up and get better, when that's not the discussion at hand. You are telling people to get better when many see a problem.
In Blue = Saying that a group of people who play what is considered a fighting game not to be good a fighting games (Belittling a group of people)

Now, say what you want, but you are clearly being aggressive and rude.

Edit: PS: This is from two of many posts in this thread.

 

[SacredWarrior]

I will give you one thing: you are allowed to disagree.

In Red = Clearly belittling them for not knowing Bayonetta
In Green = A way of writing that clearly tells people to shut up and get better, when that's not the discussion at hand. You are telling people to get better when many see a problem.
In Blue = Saying that a group of people who play what is considered a fighting game not to be good a fighting games (Belittling a group of people)

Now, say what you want, but you are clearly being aggressive and rude.

Because every discussion I've had with competitive Smash players about Bayonetta ends with insults hence my "competitive players are toxic" line. Plus people are starting to say generalizing things about Bayonetta players now.

It's already been said several times but I might as well say it again: Smash should not be competitive and expecting it to be balanced is ludicrous. Most competitive Smash players suck at other fighting games. I speak from personal experience on that one honestly. I still see NO justification or any way that Bayonetta is OP in Smash that doesn't match up to someone just not liking how she fights and not willing to compromise instead of hollering and screaming "She's OP cause I can't beat her! Nerf her!"

Present an argument that I can't debate and then I'll be quiet.

When competitive Smash players stop expecting the game to cater to their every whim and meet their impossible standards, I'll stop being aggressive and rude towards them. Plus they're pretty much rude to anyone who prefers any other Smash game over Melee. God forbid if it happens to be Brawl. Or if you use a character they hate.

The reason I come across as aggressive and rude is because I hate the competitive Smash crowd and no matter how much they argue, they still can't come up with anything that proves that a character they hate is OP. They're a bunch of whiners and they obviously aren't very good at Smash if all they do is complain about things they don't know how to deal with. Just another reason why the competitive Smash community shouldn't exist.

Like I said before, no other fighting game has this issue in their competitive scene which proves my point. If they tried that crap in any other fighting game, they would be dominated and shouted down because they can't get away with it there. Which is why I said they suck at fighting games.

 

[SacredWarrior]

"Got it memorized now? If you played Bayonetta 1 and 2 (which you apparently did not), then you would know this by now. She's not going to be nerfed because there's not much to nerf. If she's such an issue, try banning her from tournaments and see how everyone reacts. Oh wait that's not gonna happen."

I don't know how someone could read this and not see 'aggressively argumentative.' Everything about just this short paragraph is rude and condescending, and that's only one paragraph out of many you wrote during this conversation.

Ok fine I should've said my point better. I just hate it when people claim something without being informed about it.

 

[Kestrel]

Zero's video has already been mentioned?

Good. All shall be well with the world.

 

[SacredWarrior]

Zero's video has already been mentioned?

Good. All shall be well with the world.

Here's a countervideo that makes much more sense:

Like I said before, Zero's a hypocrite. He uses Sheik, ZSS, and Diddy Kong. All three of which were considered top tier at one point until they got needlessly nerfed. He also used Meta Knight in Brawl which only proves my point that he clearly must not be good. He's only going after Bayonetta because he can't beat her very easily and because he doesn't use her. He doesn't want to be challenged or usurped. Unless I can see proof that he also said something about those characters, his words mean nothing and are worthless. Plus he's just mad because Sheik got nerfed and isn't as good as she used to be.

His video was trash and made no sense whatsoever. All I see is salt because Bayonetta possibly took Sheik's place as top tier. He can't have his way anymore so he's crying. I see why Sakurai dislikes the competitive Smash scene now.

Here's another video debunking that Bayonetta is OP:

She's not as good as everyone thinks she is. If someone does something unreal or crazy with her, it's the player that's good. Not the character. People who are complaining about losing to Bayonetta or complaining about her in general are not good at Smash. There's no way around it. Just because a character is good doesn't mean the player automatically wins. Bayonetta's getting good results in tournaments because the players who use her are good and actually know what they're doing. Unlike Zero.

Bayonetta's been out for about 2 months now so she's still relatively new. Even so, in that amount of time, her frame data and weaknesses should be pretty obvious by now. With that comes ways to deal with her and there are ways to deal with her. Plus if Sheik and ZSS didn't get nerfed in the latest update (which shouldn't have happened), then people wouldn't be complaining so much about Bayonetta.

If someone loses to a Bayonetta player, it's their fault. Not hers. Accept the loss and get better at the game. If they're not willing to do that, well that says more about them than I ever could.

 

[Rain of the Night]

@Grumpy

CLOSE THIS! THERE IS NO POINT!
There is no discussion here. It's basically one person says his opinion and anyone else coming in saying the contrary is wrong. I don't see this going into anything meaningful. A lot of hypocrisy and some butt hurt going on.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

I wasn't aiming this towards another member.

You spent basically the entire first page singling out Luna because they had the gall to disagree with you, despite the fact that they tried to keep things civil the entire time. Now you're offering flimsy-ass excuses about how its "the competitive scene's fault" you're acting like this, and that it's also her fault for "not being informed enough" about the subject.

This is why people don't like your discussion threads, dude.

I'm not locking the thread yet, but please do consider this the only warning its getting. If you can't play nicely with others when they don't agree with you, get out the goddamn playpen.

 

[Kestrel]

@SacredWarrior Right now, there's very little counterplay towards effective but easy to learn tactics. Basically the point is that while Bayonetta is punishable, her mix-up is disproportionally rewarding. Get hit? Die at 40. Try to stuff? Witch time, die at 40. ZSS who risks a similar high risk high reward, needs to work a lot harder for that kinda thing. Plus, with this currently being exploited, players are SCARED. And the psychological advantage is big too, cause it makes people hesitate and easier to pressure. Something Bayonetta gets good rewards off of.

She's not undefeatable, but she is good. The main thing that gets her extra hate, like hoo-hah, is because the lack of an execution barrier. ie she gets 100 output with 10 input, versus 100 output with 100 output like Sheik did (have you tried killing with her consistently? ;p)

EDIT: Also pro-tip, unless you are a competitive smash player, don't get worked up about competitive smash play. It's unlikely to affect you unless you frequent tournaments.

 

[SacredWarrior]

@SacredWarrior Right now, there's very little counterplay towards effective but easy to learn tactics. Basically the point is that while Bayonetta is punishable, her mix-up is disproportionally rewarding. Get hit? Die at 40. Try to stuff? Witch time, die at 40. ZSS who risks a similar high risk high reward, needs to work a lot harder for that kinda thing. Plus, with this currently being exploited, players are SCARED. And the psychological advantage is big too, cause it makes people hesitate and easier to pressure. Something Bayonetta gets good rewards off of.

She's not undefeatable, but she is good. The main thing that gets her extra hate, like hoo-hah, is because the lack of an execution barrier. ie she gets 100 output with 10 input, versus 100 output with 100 output like Sheik did (have you tried killing with her consistently? ;p)

Bayonetta isn't easy to learn. In fact, she's VERY difficult to use. She only looks easy because of the top players who use her. Since her fighting style is so different from how Smash normally operates, she's like Ryu in that she has the mechanics from her home games and plays that way. There is no lack of execution barrier. Bayonetta requires time, dedication, and LOTS of patience to use. She's high risk, high reward. A character of the extremes. There's nothing to fear. The stuff you see people pull at tournaments requires lots of practice to pull off. I speak from personal experience.

ZSS is weaker and faster than Bayonetta and is also more safer (especially in mid-air) which is why she has to work a lot harder. In fact, she was my main before Bayonetta came along. The two are very similar yes but ZSS is better than Bayonetta because her frame data is better and she has a better air game.

Her mix-up isn't guaranteed. Manipulate DI and she'll always miss. Plus her attacks are unsafe on shield so if you block a lot, you're safe especially since her frame data sucks. Her Smash Attacks have very low priority and can be beaten by a simple dash attack. So they're pretty unreliable. The only reliable killing tool she has is her forward throw which doesn't kill until very high percents. Plus her neutral game is horrendous. Probably one of the worst in the game.

Witch Time is a double-edged sword because it doesn't negate hitboxes that linger which can interrupt her attempt to counterattack.

Sheik has much more killing options than Bayonetta and her neutral game is unrivaled. She's very fast and very safe. Not to mention damn near unpunishable. Her moves may have very little knockback and strength but she compensates for it by having great combo ability. She can afford to KO later than other characters. Bayonetta cannot because of the weaknesses I mentioned. She has to dominate ASAP or be dominated. Just like in her home games. She's unsafe and very high risk unlike Sheik so the two can't be compared in terms of killing.

ZSS and Sheik are better than Bayonetta in several ways and can easily dominate her. Sheik just needs to be buffed again because that nerf was just wrong.

Best way to deal with Bayonetta is basically dominate her ASAP and don't give her a second to breathe. While they may seem like a bit much, it's just like how she is in her home series.

 

[SacredWarrior]

It's unlikely to affect you unless you frequent tournaments.

What if characters get unjustly nerfed because of it? Like Sheik and Diddy Kong did? That's really my main issue altogether in the competitive Smash scene. Good equals overpowered to them. As a result, nerfs happen where they shouldn't. Smash just isn't a balanced game and it never will be no matter how many nerfs and buffs happen.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Instead of asking for something that's already happened, how about asking for the other characters to be buffed?

Nerfing 3-4 characters is FARRRRR easier than buffing 10+ characters in a game. It leaves less room for error.

Because every discussion I've had with competitive Smash players about Bayonetta ends with insults hence my "competitive players are toxic" line. Plus people are starting to say generalizing things about Bayonetta players now.

It's already been said several times but I might as well say it again: Smash should not be competitive and expecting it to be balanced is ludicrous. Most competitive Smash players suck at other fighting games. I speak from personal experience on that one honestly. I still see NO justification or any way that Bayonetta is OP in Smash that doesn't match up to someone just not liking how she fights and not willing to compromise instead of hollering and screaming "She's OP cause I can't beat her! Nerf her!"

Present an argument that I can't debate and then I'll be quiet.

When competitive Smash players stop expecting the game to cater to their every whim and meet their impossible standards, I'll stop being aggressive and rude towards them. Plus they're pretty much rude to anyone who prefers any other Smash game over Melee. God forbid if it happens to be Brawl. Or if you use a character they hate.

The reason I come across as aggressive and rude is because I hate the competitive Smash crowd and no matter how much they argue, they still can't come up with anything that proves that a character they hate is OP. They're a bunch of whiners and they obviously aren't very good at Smash if all they do is complain about things they don't know how to deal with. Just another reason why the competitive Smash community shouldn't exist.

Like I said before, no other fighting game has this issue in their competitive scene which proves my point. If they tried that crap in any other fighting game, they would be dominated and shouted down because they can't get away with it there. Which is why I said they suck at fighting games.

...

Firstly, you literally just generalised that all competitive players are toxic and immediately after bitch about people generalising Bayonetta mains. That's a bit hypocritical of you don't you think?

And screaming for people to "GIT GOOD! STOP BITCHING X IS OP" is just as bad as people screaming "OMFG NERF THAT BITCH! I DON'T LIKE HER!"

Secondly, like what Gwazi said a long fucking time ago, if they have a "Fuck You" character, the game will become less interesting because people will just flock to X and/or be like "target X".

And holy fucking shit what is that logic with "If they stop being mean to me I'll stop being mean to them." I understand if you are still being insulted even after you have been nice and fair to them it's fair to say they're awful. However, you are being aggressive and rude to them back, that would lead to more insults being thrown at you. It'll just be a vicious cycle.

And you complain about competitive players whining about Bayo being OP, yet I see no difference in you whining about the nerfs right now.

 

[SacredWarrior]

Firstly, you literally just generalised that all competitive players are toxic and immediately after bitch about people generalising Bayonetta mains. That's a bit hypocritical of you don't you think?

And screaming for people to "GIT GOOD! STOP BITCHING X IS OP" is just as bad as people screaming "OMFG NERF THAT BITCH! I DON'T LIKE HER!"

Secondly, like what Gwazi said a long fucking time ago, if they have a "Fuck You" character, the game will become less interesting because people will just flock to X and/or be like "target X".

And holy fucking shit what is that logic with "If they stop being mean to me I'll stop being mean to them." I understand if you are still being insulted even after you have been nice and fair to them it's fair to say they're awful. However, you are being aggressive and rude to them back, that would lead to more insults being thrown at you. It'll just be a vicious cycle.

And you complain about competitive players whining about Bayo being OP, yet I see no difference in you whining about the nerfs right now.

Everyone's a hypocrite. Yeah it's hypocritical of me but I'm also speaking from personal experience. When most people think a character's OP, that always leads to them demeaning the people who main those characters.

What if someone is giving you tips on how to deal with Bayonetta? Like I just did? Is that condescending too? Even though she's my main? I've literally been giving out tips on how on beat Bayonetta yet I'm called rude for it? Or is it my execution of giving said tips?

That happens all the time in competitive Smash. This is no different. For a while, Sheik and ZSS were the top tier characters in Smash 4 and every top player used them. Since Sheik got nerfed badly, more top players are gravitating towards Bayonetta. As for ZSS, she wasn't nerfed that badly so people aren't gonna drop her. People already do flock to top tier characters in Smash Bros. It happened in Brawl as well with Meta Knight. That just proves that Smash will never be a balanced fighting game.

I've tried to be nice and once I said that I think Melee is overrated and that they should move on, you can probably guess what happened. It happens to anyone who says they don't care for Melee. That's why I say the competitive Smash community is toxic. Yeah it may be a vicious cycle but they shouldn't have started it in the first place.

Competitive players also whine about the nerfs. The main people who are complaining about Bayo are mad because Sheik got nerfed and possibly replaced by her as top tier. So basically they're being salty. The difference is that I'm not complaining about the new kid in town and calling her OP because of the nerfs the other characters got.