Bayonetta OP in Smash?

[SacredWarrior]

Well, considering the company has data access to all of the online multiplayer matches, that's presumably already hundreds of thousands of matches (if not millions) of Bayonetta matches to compile data from. Within 24 hours of her going live they've likely already got at least a dozen matches reflecting every potential match-up she could end up in. I don't play smash, but I remember a League of Legends dev article talking about why they could do hot fix patches so rapidly if necessary to touch a power spike down on new releases, and it was because they had thousands of matches of data to composite every few minutes. This included data like distance traveled, average movement speed, damage spikes, damage over time, how often X or Y threshold was reached by players, they could arrange players into categories based on win/loss ratio, number of matches played in total or just with that character, et cetera.

These developers have been doing their job for several years. They have tons of aggregate data they can pull from to make decisions about whether or not to adjust the numbers on any particular character. If it ends up hurting your favourite character, that's not bias to the competitive community: That's the developer making the conscious decision, based on the numbers, to tweak a character to better fit their vision of the game. If that hurts your feelings, then stop playing the damn game online, it's not that important. You can learn how to play the new Bayonetta and take pride in becoming an even better player with that character via gaining victories even though the odds are less in your favour. You can play a different character online. You could play the singleplayer, you could play only with your friends, you could play a different video game (of which there are thousands of games online right now you could play). You could watch a movie--Netflix is only $9.99 and has fucking thousands of things to watch. You could go on YouTube and listen to political rant videos, or go outside and enjoy the weather.

The best part is, all of this would avoid blasting @☆Luna☆ who just wanted to give you another perspective on a video game. A video game with plumbers that throw fire balls, and multiple magical princesses, and god knows what other wacky party shit the game is supposed to use to entertain you.

Take a chill pill, mate. I don't want to put you on blast, or say you're a bad person, cuz' you ain't, but you really need to relax. Listen to some Simon and Garfunkle and really think about why this matters so much to you.

How can I know they're tweaking the character because they WANT to and not because they're being pressured by the competitive community who they view as gold mines? That's one of my main issues. If Bayonetta's being nerfed because of the former, then I don't mind re-learning her.

I use Lucina, ZSS, Peach, and Link. But I use Bayonetta the most. I only play online with friends now since playing randoms with Bayonetta only gets you blacklisted nowadays. I play many other games online now and luckily they aren't as toxic as Smash.

 

[Brovo]

How can I know they're tweaking the character because they WANT to and not because they're being pressured by the competitive community who they view as gold mines?

You don't. You also don't know if I'm really a black sensei ferret, or a magical gay princess ferret, or secretly Diana's evil twin separated at birth here to take over the website with atheism and overly long winded paragraphs. Maybe I'm secretly a feminist, maybe I'm a jew, maybe I'm seven feet tall and shoot hoops on the weekends with Tiger Woods while smoking cigars and banging hookers. Maybe I'm 40-something year old Internet Pedophile like MSNBC claims most people on the Internet are. Maybe I'm Chris Hansen, here to bust your ass for the very aforementioned crime. On that note, would you like to have a seat over there?

You can't know what someone else is thinking. That's life, and it shouldn't matter. If they start balancing the game around the desires of people other than you, and it infuriates you, walk away. Welcome to a free and liberated society: They can choose not to serve you, and you can choose not to give them your money and/or time.

 

[SacredWarrior]

You don't. You also don't know if I'm really a black sensei ferret, or a magical gay princess ferret, or secretly Diana's evil twin separated at birth here to take over the website with atheism and overly long winded paragraphs. Maybe I'm secretly a feminist, maybe I'm a jew, maybe I'm seven feet tall and shoot hoops on the weekends with Tiger Woods while smoking cigars and banging hookers. Maybe I'm 40-something year old Internet Pedophile like MSNBC claims most people on the Internet are. Maybe I'm Chris Hansen, here to bust your ass for the very aforementioned crime. On that note, would you like to have a seat over there?

You can't know what someone else is thinking. That's life, and it shouldn't matter. If they start balancing the game around the desires of people other than you, and it infuriates you, walk away. Welcome to a free and liberated society: They can choose not to serve you, and you can choose not to give them your money and/or time.

 

[Brovo]

Alright, I'll try to explain it.

The people who make the game are the people who ultimately get to decide its future. They invested the hours into creating it, they invested the creative energies into its every animation, piece of programming, and character model. They can choose not to do what you want them to do. They can choose to delete Bayonetta from the game tomorrow: You don't get a voice in that. You don't get to choose that. The only choice you get is whether or not you will continue to play the game as a result of that choice. If yes: Enjoy the game. If not: Go find a new game.

That is that. Shouting at people here who disagree with you isn't going to change the minds of those developers.

In the same way: If you created a video game, you would get to decide what would be in that game, no matter what anyone else demanded of you.

For another example: I created Legend of Renalta. It's my role play. People have complained before about directions it has taken, and sometimes I've capitulated to what they've asked to see changed. Other times, I've stayed the course. No matter what: The decision to change or stay the course was my own to make, and anyone who disagreed with that choice could either choose to live with it, or choose to leave.

In the same way that the developer is free to make their game whatever they want it to be, you're free not to indulge their changes and simply not play the game. If that developer wants nothing more than to cater to the competitive crowd, they're free to do that, and you're free to simply not play the game if that direction is too disagreeable for you to derive your entertainment. At the end of the day, there are dozens of competitors, and thousands of other games.

 

[SacredWarrior]

Alright, I'll try to explain it.

The people who make the game are the people who ultimately get to decide its future. They invested the hours into creating it, they invested the creative energies into its every animation, piece of programming, and character model. They can choose not to do what you want them to do. They can choose to delete Bayonetta from the game tomorrow: You don't get a voice in that. You don't get to choose that. The only choice you get is whether or not you will continue to play the game as a result of that choice. If yes: Enjoy the game. If not: Go find a new game.

That is that. Shouting at people here who disagree with you isn't going to change the minds of those developers.

In the same way: If you created a video game, you would get to decide what would be in that game, no matter what anyone else demanded of you.

For another example: I created Legend of Renalta. It's my role play. People have complained before about directions it has taken, and sometimes I've capitulated to what they've asked to see changed. Other times, I've stayed the course. No matter what: The decision to change or stay the course was my own to make, and anyone who disagreed with that choice could either choose to live with it, or choose to leave.

In the same way that the developer is free to make their game whatever they want it to be, you're free not to indulge their changes and simply not play the game. If that developer wants nothing more than to cater to the competitive crowd, they're free to do that, and you're free to simply not play the game if that direction is too disagreeable for you to derive your entertainment. At the end of the day, there are dozens of competitors, and thousands of other games.

I was being sarcastic with the GIF. I got your point and understood it. I get what you're saying but consumers have a voice and this is a free market right? Are you saying that developers shouldn't take their customers' opinions into account? There are far more casual Smash players than competitive players so shouldn't the devs listen to them a bit more? Consumers have more power than people realize and I get that it's the dev's final decision but the least they could do is listen to ALL of their fans. Not just the competitive ones that bring in big bucks for them.

 

[Brovo]

I was being sarcastic with the GIF. I got your point and understood it. I get what you're saying but consumers have a voice and this is a free market right? Are you saying that developers shouldn't take their customers' opinions into account? There are far more casual Smash players than competitive players so shouldn't the devs listen to them a bit more? Consumers have more power than people realize and I get that it's the dev's final decision but the least they could do is listen to ALL of their fans. Not just the competitive ones that bring in big bucks for them.

Nope. The developers don't have to do shit for you. The free market only states that they provide a product, and you can choose whether or not you will buy that product. The onus of responsibility is on the consumer, not the developer.

Seriously, the developers could add a character named "Black Hitler" and give him the ability to use this to instantly kill anyone they want. Would it be healthy for their game? Nyeeehhh probably not, but it would still be their choice.

Besides, do you really think the developers read IwakuRoleplay.com? If you really want to contact them, go on whatever message boards they host. Or, start a public petition to try and get your voice heard, but remember...

They will always be free to do nothing you ask of them, no matter how many people you gather to your cause. Because that's freedom. Freedom for everyone.

Everyone.

 

[SacredWarrior]

Nope. The developers don't have to do shit for you. The free market only states that they provide a product, and you can choose whether or not you will buy that product. The onus of responsibility is on the consumer, not the developer.

Seriously, the developers could add a character named "Black Hitler" and give him the ability to use this to instantly kill anyone they want. Would it be healthy for their game? Nyeeehhh probably not, but it would still be their choice.

Besides, do you really think the developers read IwakuRoleplay.com? If you really want to contact them, go on whatever message boards they host. Or, start a public petition to try and get your voice heard, but remember...

They will always be free to do nothing you ask of them, no matter how many people you gather to your cause. Because that's freedom. Freedom for everyone.

Everyone.

So if a company screws over their customers or tries to (like Microsoft tried to do with the Xbox One and what Konami and Capcom have been doing lately), we just have to take it and not speak out against them no matter how horrendous their actions may be? Sorry but nope. That's not how we get change done.

I do go on message boards the devs post and voice my opinion so problem solved there.

 

[Brovo]

So if a company screws over their customers or tries to (like Microsoft tried to do with the Xbox One and what Konami and Capcom have been doing lately), we just have to take it and not speak out against them no matter how horrendous their actions may be? Sorry but nope. That's not how we get change done.

I do go on message boards the devs post and voice my opinion so problem solved there.

You can speak all you want. If you keep giving them your money, they will keep profiting. People talk big about trying to force corporations like EA to change via public advocacy, screaming and writing petitions 24/7 and voting them the worst company in America not once--but twice--and guess what it did? Nothing. They made 1.2 Billion in cold hard profit last fiscal year. That's the first time they've achieved over 1 billion in profit after expenses in the past five years.

The only thing that a corporation will listen to is money. Money is the capitalist equivalent of democracy. The only way to force a company to change to what you want them to do is to stop buying and using their products. If you buy a product and complain about it, it just makes you the useful idiot by which they will continue to farm grotesque levels of money from. Seriously, this is as old as the gaming industry.

If you really care, stop buying their products, stop playing their games. The only way a corporation is forced to listen to its consumer base is if the consumer base stops buying their products. They seriously don't have to listen to your complaining and will generally have no reason to listen to your complaining if you keep giving them your money anyway.

 

[Silent]

I do go on message boards the devs post and voice my opinion so problem solved there.

Problem here is, the voices of the players were the only reason why she was included in the game. And that was a huge mistake on their behalf. Devs should never take into account player feelings because they they are nearly always bias. Everyone whats their fav class/character to be the best. Everyone wants to be in the winner circle. At some point the under dogs have to have their day. Again, this goes back to my previous post-- it will be a continuous cycle in order for every character to get their OP opportunity.

 

[SacredWarrior]

You can speak all you want. If you keep giving them your money, they will keep profiting. People talk big about trying to force corporations like EA to change via public advocacy, screaming and writing petitions 24/7 and voting them the worst company in America not once--but twice--and guess what it did? Nothing. They made 1.2 Billion in cold hard profit last fiscal year. That's the first time they've achieved over 1 billion in profit after expenses in the past five years.

The only thing that a corporation will listen to is money. Money is the capitalist equivalent of democracy. The only way to force a company to change to what you want them to do is to stop buying and using their products. If you buy a product and complain about it, it just makes you the useful idiot by which they will continue to farm grotesque levels of money from. Seriously, this is as old as the gaming industry.

If you really care, stop buying their products, stop playing their games. The only way a corporation is forced to listen to its consumer base is if the consumer base stops buying their products. They seriously don't have to listen to your complaining and will generally have no reason to listen to your complaining if you keep giving them your money anyway.

I have been doing that trust me. In fact, I'm pretty much boycotting Capcom, Konami (except for Yu-Gi-Oh), and damn near every other AAA studio. I only buy games now if they're from a franchise, genre, or developer that I like. Or sometimes I'll go by word of mouth and watch gameplay vids on YouTube.

EA is only making money because of the dudebros that plague the gaming community. Basically the fanboys that defend them no matter what they do. I will admit that they've wised up a bit recently but they still have a ways to go.

 

[SacredWarrior]

Problem here is, the voices of the players were the only reason why she was included in the game. And that was a huge mistake on their behalf. Devs should never take into account player feelings because they they are nearly always bias. Everyone whats their fav class/character to be the best. Everyone wants to be in the winner circle. At some point the under dogs have to have their day. Again, this goes back to my previous post-- it will be a continuous cycle in order for every character to get their OP opportunity.

To be fair, the Smash Ballot was only implemented because they got sick and tired of being nagged for more guest characters and decided to let the fans have a say so. I voted for Sora because I didn't think Bayonetta was gonna be able to be in Smash. Mainly due to her maturity. If devs didn't take people's feelings into account, we wouldn't have certain games or certain things happen in games.

 

[Silent]

To be fair, the Smash Ballot was only implemented because they got sick and tired of being nagged for more guest characters and decided to let the fans have a say so. I voted for Sora because I didn't think Bayonetta was gonna be able to be in Smash. Mainly due to her maturity. If devs didn't take people's feelings into account, we wouldn't have certain games or certain things happen in games.

Yes, I'll agree. But when it comes to things like game balancing-- players really need to consider if their need for nerf/buffs opinions are really based from the mechanics and the numbers, or simply because they don't want their favorite class/character to not be in the winner circle. My experience as been, it's always the latter.

 

[Brovo]

I have been doing that trust me.

Your actions speak much louder than your words, but one day, you will learn this, young one.

 

[SacredWarrior]

Your actions speak much louder than your words, but one day, you will learn this, young one.

How's this for an action?

When Capcom canceled Mega Man Legends 3, I pretty much sold all of my Mega Man games and swore off Mega Man. Good thing I bought Devil May Cry 3 SE used so no need to sell it!

 

[Brovo]

How's this for an action?

When Capcom canceled Mega Man Legends 3, I pretty much sold all of my Mega Man games and swore off Mega Man. Good thing I bought Devil May Cry 3 SE used so no need to sell it!

Why sell what you already own and enjoy to spite a corporation who already has your money?

 

[SacredWarrior]

Why sell what you already own and enjoy to spite a corporation who already has your money?

So I won't give them the satisfaction of owning the games. Plus I bought the games used in the first place so they didn't already have my money.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ok, apparently I had some misunderstanding in my earlier posts.

I was under the impression that SacredWarrior, being mad at people who disliked Bayonetta wanted a new DLC character with the purpose of "Screw you, THIS is what a broken character looks like!". I wasn't aware that Bayonetta herself was that broken character (I haven't played the game in a long time now).

I won't weigh on as to 'if' Bayonetta actually is broken or not, because I have zero understanding of her mechanics, and minimal understanding of smash mechanics overall (I'm the player just as likely to fall of the map as to get killed... Fighting games are not my strong point). But I would say, if the majority of competitive players are expressing concern, AND the developers already see things to tweak through their data? There's probably something going on.

Though that all goes to the question of should they fix it? Is Smash Competitive or Casual? For me it's more of a Casual game and that tends to be the case with most people I play with. Some people might be really good at it out of skill or pride, but they don't take it to a "MLG Tornument" mindset either. That being said though, there is still a crowd and market for it, one Nintendo at least acknowledges cause of the competitive mode they have.

And I will say that originally when I posted in this thread I had the viewpoint of "This game is mainly for Casual player, competitives should calm down". But, as others commented with their replies they did bring up a number of good points to be listening to, one of them being "If your Competitive you want balance, if you're Casual will you even care about the change? You'll play any ways". And it's true, Casuals play for the fun for it, a tweak in power balance isn't going to do anything for their enjoyment, but it will mean a lot to the competitive field.

Also @SacredWarrior you mentioned earlier in the thread you're angry at people for saying stuff like "You only won cause you use Bayonetta"? If she does get balanced to where the competitive field is happy with her then those comments would also stop, and people would stop getting mad at having to face her.

 

[Brovo]

So I won't give them the satisfaction of owning the games. Plus I bought the games used in the first place so they didn't already have my money.

They don't care about your satisfaction. They don't care about your emotions. They only care about generating a sufficient level of profit so as to continue on the next day.

That may make them sound evil, but to that extent, they have bent over backwards and spent large sums of money and time to develop products they think people will purchase. They do not know you. They do not care about you. You are one among millions of voices, drowned out by the sheer volume of everyone else; a cacophony of sounds so incoherent that Cthulhu would blush at his genuine inferiority to our own crowd mentalities.

If you bought a product from them, and you enjoyed it, that's good for you. What you do with that product afterwards is none of their concern. Sell it, burn it, buy it again--they don't care about you. They care about their profit margin. If you contribute to it, they take your money, and give you the product. Whether you are satisfied with it or not is irrelevant to them.

This personal vendetta you have toward a mindless, faceless engine of profit is one sided, and it will only cause you emotional pain in the long run.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Note: If you're unhappy enough with this that you want Nintendo to feel some penalty for this (cause free market) just sell the game used. Because that will mean is one extra person buys a used copy, rather than a new copy. So effectively you withdrew your money that supported the game.

 

[SacredWarrior]

If she does get balanced to where the competitive field is happy with her then those comments would also stop, and people would stop getting mad at having to face her.

To be fair, people say this with EVERY character so it's not just Bayonetta. It's more of a toxicity issue than a balance issue.