Bayonetta OP in Smash?

Discussion in 'THREAD ARCHIVES' started by SacredWarrior, Apr 2, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. The latest topic in Smash that I've noticed as of late is that people are bitching about Bayonetta being OP in Smash 4.

    [​IMG]

    Just when I thought the Smash community couldn't get any worse than it already is. The competitive crowd (I mean Melee elitists) have found ANOTHER character to whine about like the bitches they are.

    Bayonetta is far from OP and most people who say she is just flat-out suck ass at the game, don't want to adapt, or both. She has MANY weaknesses that are easy to exploit. She's my main so obviously I would know these things. Can't say the same for the whiners though.

    This exact same thing happened to Sheik and Zero Suit Samus (No they weren't OP either!) and they wound up being nerfed which they didn't deserve. Bayonetta was nerfed in the latest update but luckily it wasn't by much. It's about time Sakurai made a "Fuck You" character for the competitive Smashers cause as far as I'm concerned, they deserve nothing and need to go back to Melee and stop ruining Smash. Or adapt, stop whining, and learn how to fight Bayonetta since they claim to be oh so good at the game. Or better yet, play a fighting game that's actually MEANT to be competitive like Virtua Fighter.

    I'm not that good in Smash yet I'm not calling every character that beats me OP so what's their excuse? Hopefully Sakurai or someone shuts these guys up soon and gives them a wake-up call cause this is really getting annoying. Stop calling characters OP just because you can't deal with them and don't want to adapt.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. I wouldn't suggest this. If they made a character for the sole purpose of being broken and beating people, it will also become the go-to character in casual play and quickly turn the matches less into fun and more into a 'everyone is X' or 'gang up on X' deal.
     
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  3. If Bayonetta were OP like people have been saying she is (which she isn't), then your words would make sense. Meta Knight in Brawl was OP because he could do literally anything and had little to no weaknesses. Your comment applies to him definitely. Bayonetta has very exploitable weaknesses that people apparently don't know about hence all the complaining.
     
  4. Unless you participate in ranked high level play it's really hard to say if someone is op or not.

    What makes her op to the competitive crowd could be something as small as a few frames.

    Also, who goes near the smash forums or that community at all without dealing with hardcore competitive crowds?

    Edit: Also complaining about something you don't even participate in (as judged by the 'I'm not good', ie: high level play) it's kinda silly to complain about something that more than likely won't affect you.
     
  5. Meta Knights a bit different though in that he just happened to be more powerful within an original roster. He wasn't an expansion added in with the concious intention of breaking the game.

    So even if people are unjustly crying about Bayonetta requiring new tactics, that's not really a reason to request another new character to be made except with the purpose of shitting on balance.
     
  6. Not exactly. Casuals are also complaining about Bayonetta too :/

    That's just nitpicky as hell -_-

    Depends on who you ask. I usually just shut them down with witty, mean retorts.
     
  7. Because we'll take your word for that.

    It's clear you've never been apart of that kind of competitiveness else you wouldn't be dubbing it nitpicky. It's valid concerns. If a character has even a few extra frames of invincibility or for a grab compared to most then yeah, that's a little off unless it's offset by other things.

    Being mean isn't an argument auto-win button. It just makes you rude.
     
  8. Ok I'll give you that.

    The main reason I said Bayonetta is a "Fuck You" character to the competitive Smash community is because the players in that community whine about how she's "ruining" competitive Smash just because they hate fighting against her and don't like her fighting style. If that's not entitlement, I don't know what it is.
     
  9. A few extra frames is only that big a deal in competitive play though, where people are at the skill level of such minor details being needed.
    For Casual people who just fuck around a lot? It doesn't really mean anything.

    So if the professional level is calling for a nerf that will effect the Casual players? I can see the clash of interest.
    Especially for a game that's not designed to be balanced or competitive to begin with.
    Doesn't competitive have a list of banned characters for cases like this?
     
    • Thank Thank x 1
  10. If I had a dime for the amount of time people have said to me and other players "You only won because you use Bayonetta or _____" I'd be richer than Oprah.

    Yes I have. My main fighting game is Dead or Alive 5 Last Round which is actually MEANT to be competitive unlike Smash. It's not a valid concern when it comes to Smash because people bitch about the smallest shit when it comes to the game and certain characters instead of learning how to deal with it and adapting. Since they claim to be so godly at the game, that shouldn't be hard. At least in other fighting games, people don't whine and bitch like that. They actually learn and adapt like they're supposed to.

    It is if the other person's being an elitist and a fanboy of a certain Smash game which is pretty much the entire competitive Smash community in a nutshell.
     
    • Nice execution! Nice execution! x 1
  11. Yes but that almost never happens in most fighting games. Usually I just see every stage known to man banned in Smash tournaments for stupid reasons. Meta Knight was banned from Brawl tournaments though which was a good thing in my book.
     
  12. Actually, there is a lot to talk about with regards to why Bayonetta has the ire of the competitive smash community, so let me start with a few reasons why I agree that she crossed a line.

    • Bayonetta moreso than any character has reliable combos which do over 45% damage on a single connection.
    • Bayonetta has a recovery that is so versatile in both distance and variability that most of the cast cannot challenge her recovery
    • Bayonetta's witch time makes attacking her from places where she has weak stage control extremely risky because a connection will cause a stock lost on everyone except villager
    • Bayonetta has ranged hitboxes on most of her moves, causing them to be hard to punish even when they miss entirely
    • Bayonetta is able to perform zero to death combos off the top of the stage.
    • Bayonetta can completely dominate linear recoveries with witch time
    • Bayonetta is the only character which has completely dominated the tournament scene after people had only a weak to play with her, suggesting that her combos are relatively simple, and matchup knowledge isn't complicated.
    • Bayonetta's biggest weakness is the frame data on her rolls, air dodge, and spot dodge. This weakness is covered by using witch time instead.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Thank Thank x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  13. Bayonetta's recovery is actually trash and very difficult. In fact, it's worse than Little Mac's no thanks to the nerf she got. So no that's incorrect. Try again. It's slower than most of the other fighters which usually means a free Meteor Smash and makes it easier to gimp her.

    Bayonetta fights exactly how she does in her home series. Of course she's gonna be a combo heavy fighter. Common sense. In fact that's a weakness of hers and plus combos aren't always guaranteed due to opponent's DI.

    Bayonetta is extremely lightweight, being slightly lighter than Zelda and Sheik. Easy KO's.

    Bayonetta's Witch Time is a counter just like other characters who have counters. If you're gonna whine about a counter, whine about the others too. Also you neglect something else: WT is NOT spammable! Just like other characters with a counter, its effect degenerates with each use. So that's wrong. Also you can still be hit while WT is in effect and if it happens, you're open to attack.

    Bayonetta lacks priority on her Smash attacks and she has a VERY steep learning curve. No she's not easy to use.

    Most of her attacks have pretty bad start-up lag and the more attacks she performs while airborne, the more ending lag she has which leaves her open for huge punishment.

    So you're basically wrong. Bayonetta is easy to exploit and has glaring weaknesses. The competitive whiners won't mention it because they'll know they'll look like idiots. All of their points can easily be countered with a rebuttal. Adapt and learn how she works instead of complaining just because she's being used in tournaments a lot. Same thing happened with Sheik and Zero Suit Samus. A character being good doesn't equal OP. The competitive Smash community either needs to get good or shut up.
     
    #13 SacredWarrior, Apr 2, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
  14. You see, you are coming at this from a casual perspective, and that is why it is difficult to see how at the competitive level these become nonissues. I'll go at these one at a time.

    Bayonetta's recovery is actually trash. In fact, it's worse than Little Mac's no thanks to the nerf she got. So no that's incorrect. Try again. It's slower than most of the other fighters which usually means a free Meteor Smash and makes it easier to gimp her.

    You say that, but in every tournament I've watched, I've yet to see a Bayonetta get gimped due to being knocked off stage without a seriously wicked read. Unless you are claiming that the world's best smash players aren't exploiting this weak recovery, then you might be missing something.

    Bayonetta fights exactly how she does in her home series. Of course she's gonna be a combo heavy fighter. Common sense. In fact that's a weakness of hers and plus combos aren't always guaranteed due to opponent's DI.

    Top competitive players know all true combos on every character, as well as when it acts as a mix-up. It is one thing to be a combo heavy character, and an entirely different thing to be given multiple inescapable combo tools.

    Bayonetta is extremely lightweight, being slightly lighter than Zelda and Sheik.

    Which would be bad if it didn't make it easier to escape combos from Pikachu, Shiek, Bowser, Marth, and many more. It doesn't help that since witch time is so powerful, you have to fight Bayonetta very carefully, leaving only characters like Fox, Mario, and Pikachu with really fast smashes to feel safe about throwing out smashes at all.

    Bayonetta's Witch Time is a counter just like other characters who have counters.

    No. Witch time is a much better counter because it is effective against any kind of move and is the second safest counter in the game due to the bat time feature. Unlike most counters whose effect is based on how strong a move they are hit with and have poor launch angles, Witch Time does the same thing regardless of the strength of the move it counters, and you can decide which angle you want to launch after the counterattack.

    Bayonetta lacks priority on her Smash attacks and she has a VERY steep learning curve. No she's not easy to use.

    Smash moves don't need priority. They are moves intended to be used as punishes. And while you say she isn't easy to use, I think that is more relative. What I'm trying to say is that it takes less time to become amazing with Bayonetta than any other character due to her lack of use of tech such as perfect pivots, A-landing, and other advanced techniques which require the development of muscle memory. It could also be in part due to the fact that her combos and playstyle work more or less the same on every character.

    Most of her attacks have pretty bad start-up lag and the more attacks she performs while airborne, the more ending lag she has which leaves her open for huge punishment.

    I don't know enough to comment on this. But I'll take your word for it.

    So you're basically wrong. Bayonetta is easy to exploit and has glaring weaknesses. The competitive whiners won't mention it because they'll know they'll look like idiots.

    Bayonetta can be exploited, but I don't think that it is as easy as you make it sound. Most of the characters who are good against Bayonetta aren't good against the rest of the high tiers. Maybe it is just that Bayonetta is so different to play against that even the pros are finding it difficult to adapt, but let's apply Occum's razor. Is Zero, the person who for an entire year placed first place in every tournament he attended, wrong? Is someone who spends their entire time playing the game against other top players not able to notice when a character carries the game rather than skill. What about Mewtwoking, the autistic who is famous for memorizing character frame data to carry his matches? Do you really know the game better than them? Are they really just whining? Because the opposite is happening. Both have worked furiously to find a viable counter strategy since someone won with Bayonetta in a major Japanese tournament after the character had just been released. I trust their judgement above my own.

     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Thank Thank x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • Nice execution! Nice execution! x 1
  15. If the competitive players are so good at the game, then they should know how to deal with Bayonetta. There's a reason why the casual audience is much larger and more preferred over them when it comes to Smash. So what if Bayonetta won a tournament just after her release? That means nothing. Before she came along, people were calling Diddy Kong, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus OP to the point where they got nerfed very badly. Last time I checked Zero used those characters so he's a hypocrite. He's only calling Bayonetta OP because he doesn't use her and because he knows he can be beaten with her. He never did the same to the other three characters I mentioned.

    Nothing is wrong with Bayonetta's play-style at all period. She needs to ruin competitive Smash and she's not toxic to the community like Zero claims she is. The competitive players are what's toxic to the Smash community. I'm not gonna trust the judgment of players who have no business trying to make Smash competitive and balanced when it wasn't even meant to be that in the first place and who are stuck in the past with their Melee bullshit. Hence Project M.

    The competitive Smash community sucks and taking what they say seriously and acting as if their word is law is moronic. Their whiny bullshit wouldn't fly in any other fighting game which is why they only play Smash cause they know they can get away with it only so much. It's a good thing the casuals usually drown them out.

    So yes they're just whining. They just don't like change and don't like adapting and would much rather bitch and whine until they get their way which they don't deserve. Sakurai should just give them the finger already and shut them up. Oh wait he already did. No other fighting game has this issue in their competitive scene. I would know since I play Dead or Alive 5 Last Round pretty seriously and play a few other fighting games casually. The fact that the competitive Smashers are like this is proof enough that Smash needs to stop being competitive and that they need to stop playing Smash so seriously.
     
  16. I'm sorry that you feel that way. I can't say anything to defend the competitive scene aside from the fact that I love Smash bros. I love watching people pick up the game and finding that such a simple concept could go so deep. I love that if you want to get better at the game, there is such a density of information that there will always be a way to get better. I like that Smash is fun to play casually, but players can always improve in small ways. I don't want to stop playing smash seriously. It is too much fun. Changing and adapting, that is what makes fighting games fun at their core. I don't want characters like Bayonetta to make everyone play the same way.
     
  17. She doesn't do this. She makes everyone play DIFFERENTLY which is why everyone complains. She can't be approached the same as everyone else. That's why competitive players complain. Bayonetta makes them WORK for their victories. They don't want to work for their victories. They want it handed to them.

    No one says the same for other characters so they don't need to say the same for Bayonetta. I'm just sick of players getting crapped on just because they use certain characters which happens a lot more in competitive Smash than it does in casual Smash. I love Smash Bros also which is why I don't want it to be competitive. It's ruining the community as well as dividing it. Plus it wasn't meant to be competitive in the first place so it's futile to play it that way. Not to mention incredibly boring.
     
  18. You are perfectly right. And if you watch the video, Zero actually agrees with you. People shouldn't be discounted for playing Bayonetta. They are doing what they need to in order to win. But this is also exactly what they propose is making Smash Bros less interesting. They are making it to where the kind of growth that I described doesn't happen. People see the pro players doing well with Bayonetta, and so they pick them up thinking the character is good. But unlike all the other characters less Duck Hunt, Bayonetta doesn't help players improve on fundamentals. She doesn't encourage learning how to approach. She doesn't encourage the player to learn spacing. She doesn't teach players how to keep stage control, or when to give it up. She doesn't encourage thoughtful play. What Bayonetta does is make players focus on learning how to land witch time, and how to perform her combos. Bayonetta's character seems designed to avoid what traditionally made people good at smash bros. I like that in order to be good with her, you actually have to think about utilizing combos rather than just throwing out whatever attack, but there is just such a lack of depth with this character that it doesn't matter.

    There have been good characters before. The difference is, you had to be good at a lot of things to win in grand finals with those characters. With Bayonetta, you live or die based on your ability to witch time and capitalize on the fear that you might get witch timed. Playing against Bayonetta means that even a minor mistake will make you lose the stock, while she remains relatively safe. Bayonetta just isn't fun to play against, and it could easily be fixed by making witch time more like jigglypuff's rest so that the reward matches the risk. Making her combos more read based would also be appreciated, but the nerf of witch time would make Bayonetta have more difficulty landing those character defining combos.
     
    #18 ☆Luna☆, Apr 2, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
  19. Bayonetta was nerfed in the latest update remember? Also she can't help having her playstyle since that was exactly how she played in her home games. Expecting her to play differently is unrealistic. I bet most people who whine about how Bayonetta plays haven't even played her games. She's designed the way she is because of her games. Just like Ryu from Street Fighter. So it's not her fault that she's like that.

    Instead of asking for something that's already happened, how about asking for the other characters to be buffed? God knows some of them need one. Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Palutena just to name a few. Also Bayonetta is plenty of fun to play against. I've played against a few Bayos myself and I had a damn good blast in the process. Then again they were mirror matches so.....
     
  20. Let me boil it down to one sentence.

    I don't like that Bayonetta's depth is limited to the decision of when to witch time and how to combo.

    The nerf did not change this aspect of her character.

    Naturally I want some characters to be buffed, although I disagree about sheik and zero suit needing them, but the reason we aren't talking about them is because this thread is about Bayonetta.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.