Transgender Controversy

[Sidhe]

First world problems..... Meanwhile in China they have entire villages that make several yuan a day by burning old plastic to get metals and rarely live to get 30. But sure, this is a far more important issue, as long as you get to type the thread through your smartphone, which is cheaper (not to you, lol, to the company selling it, of course) because of slave labour. Oh yeah, down-vote this as much as you want.

This is so far from a 'first world problem.' Transgender issues reach much farther than the western world. Issues like this are prevalent even in China, I can guarantee you. Regardless of that, people are able to be concerned about more than one issue at a time. It's not hard. Also, why basically ask for downvotes? This isn't Reddit.

Saying someone can't be upset about a problem because someone has it worse is like saying someone can't be happy because someone else has it better.

 

[Hellis]

First world problems..... Meanwhile in China they have entire villages that make several yuan a day by burning old plastic to get metals and rarely live to get 30. But sure, this is a far more important issue, as long as you get to type the thread through your smartphone, which is cheaper (not to you, lol, to the company selling it, of course) because of slave labour. Oh yeah, down-vote this as much as you want.

One; Stop trying to be edgy and bait for downvotes. This isn't reddit.
Two; One problem does not make another go away. That's a logical fallacy encountered in debates since times immorial. Do not try and patronize others, for seeing a problem where there clearly is one. Transphobia is a huge civil issue that relates directly to sexism. Another thing that is still a problem. These two are at play here, not what is happening in China. Trying to discredit everyone in a thread like that is some seriusly bad reasoning.

@Brovo ; Rape happens against all genders, but more often against women (The Data I have, suggest this is the case. However, due the very, very unreliable state of said data, I do not take this for the exact truth.). This due to a wonky powerstructure that has been enforcred for a odd few thusands of years or so and only recently begun to properly swing back. Sadly, I have to say that we actually need to inform men and work actively against the remnants of said wonky powerstructure better. Young men are often corraled into groups where peer pressure fucks up the perception of right and wrong. There is so much imagery that is enforcing the "submissive woman" trope as well in the media. It all ads up.

"Frat Culture" per example, have a massive problem with how women are often treated, I've seen it first hand. "Bro before Hoes" and all that stuff. That is not to say what you also said also isn't true. A problem that I found in my own country, is that we are somehow managing to alienate white, low class white men. This is dangerous, becouse they are a large portion of the poulace. And as a result of nobody taking them into consideration, they result turn to the more extreme right wing movements. This is becouse in our constant search to empower one group to stability, we end up forgetting to let another be heard. As you said, we are all people first. And loosing your voice is a terribly frustrating and scary thing.

 

[Jargo]

This is so far from a 'first world problem.' Transgender issues reach much farther than the western world. Issues like this are prevalent even in China, I can guarantee you. Regardless of that, people are able to be concerned about more than one issue at a time. It's not hard. Also, why basically ask for downvotes? This isn't Reddit.

Saying someone can't be upset about a problem because someone has it worse is like saying someone can't be happy because someone else has it better.

That is not at even near similar. If your house's roof is broken are you going to go and complain about the paining on the wall not blending with the rest of the interior? There are innumerable much greater "leaks" around the world, imagine if this much energy was funneled into them, rather than minor issues like this that only concern a specific minority. Also the first world doesn't concern the western civilization alone. Asia and Africa both have areas, where people live almost the same way as those in the west, so they can also be considered "first world people".

 

[Astaroth]

@Brovo

Uh, okay. Dude. I'm a man and I also know that rape isn't okay.

That was not what I was saying. Rape is NOT a men-only crime. And I didn't mean that all men will rape unless taught otherwise. .__.

You're quoting me out of context. I was specifically addressing what Asmo said, which was in reference to the societal problems regarding gender stereotyping. Remember, Asmo being the guy who said he was in a unisex bathroom and didn't sexually assault anyone? Yeah, I was backing him up against the person criticizing him.

There IS unfortunately sexism in the world which apologizes for men who do rape and which blames women for not resisting rape. When I was talking about educating men and women, I meant specifically in order to counteract people who already have those attitudes. Not saying every goddamn person is dumb and doesn't already know better. That's obviously not true.

 

[Sidhe]

That is not at even near similar. If your house's roof is broken are you going to go and complain about the paining on the wall not blending with the rest of the interior? There are innumerable much greater "leaks" around the world, imagine if this much energy was funneled into them, rather than minor issues like this that only concern a specific minority. Also the first world doesn't concern the western civilization alone. Asia and Africa both have areas, where people live almost the same way as those in the west, so they can also be considered "first world people".

Don't compare human right's issues with something as petty as leaks and house paint. I don't understand your line of thinking. As I said, it is fully possible to care about more than one thing at a time. Those 'funneling energy' into the issues you're deeming 'important enough to care about' also likely care about smaller things. Are you going to tell them to stop caring about the state of their own life just because there are wars happening, especially if these same people are actively assisting those in greater need? People care about things that directly concern their quality of life. You're not somehow a superior, enlightened being just because you apparently don't, which I am skeptical of. I'm sure there's something in your life that could be considered a 'first world problem' that you care about immensely.

 

[Peter Feels]

First world problems..... Meanwhile in China they have entire villages that make several yuan a day by burning old plastic to get metals and rarely live to get 30. But sure, which toilet you use is a far more important issue, as long as you get to type the thread through your smartphone, which is cheaper (not to you, lol, to the company selling it, of course) because of slave labour. Oh yeah, down-vote this as much as you want. Actually, since I've started this topic anyways, do you know that the percentage of people around the world who don't have access to the very basic hygiene supplies exceeds the population of the US. Some of them actually live in the US.

Instead of derailing the thread, you could start your own. No one here, as far as I know, has claimed this issue was more important than yours or it should be given exclusive attention.

 

[Astaroth]

@Aleksandar

What Butterfly said. If you're not going to participate in discussing the issue at hand, why are you here? No one is saying the other issues don't matter. We're just talking about this issue, which happens to be important to the person who started this thread in particular because she's asking for opinions on THIS ISSUE for a school paper. Not on other issues.

 

[Brovo]

@Brovo

Uh, okay. Dude. I'm a man and I also know that rape isn't okay.

Cool, then we can come to consensus on that, obviously!

You're quoting me out of context. I was specifically addressing what Asmo said, which was in reference to the societal problems regarding gender stereotyping. Remember, Asmo being the guy who said he was in a unisex bathroom and didn't sexually assault anyone? Yeah, I was backing him up against the person criticizing him.

Kestrel, I know. I just saw that line you mentioned and immediately my brain went "oh god not this argument again." I apologize if I misread you.

There IS unfortunately sexism in the world which apologizes for men who do rape and which blames women for not resisting rape. When I was talking about educating men and women, I meant specifically in order to counteract people who already have those attitudes. Not saying every goddamn person is dumb and doesn't already know better. That's obviously not true.

Then cut the "men need to be taught not to rape" routine. Specifically address the cultures that need reformation. Target specific issues. Broad based statements like that only tend to lead to people not understanding your intentions. For instance...

Your intent: There is sexism in the world which apologies for men who do rape. <- There are some instances in some circles that must be reformed. I agree with this in a whole hearted manner.

What you said: Men need to be taught not to rape. <- Carte blanche statement that condemns an entire sex to be rapists unless taught otherwise.

Basically: Clarity breeds knowledge.

 

[Hellis]

Stop feeding Aleks with attention. Don't qoute him anymore, he has been adressed enough I feel.

 

[Asmodeus]

Okay, everyone regroup. We're not here to fling shit.


This is what is called "a debate". In a debate you choose a single subject and look at it from different angles. You don't bring in other subjects.

Pink Arrow framed the parameters of the debate. She didn't want us to talk about Chinese villagers and rapist demographics. You've made Aristotle sad.


*points at Aristotle*



Seriously, guys - he fought for our freedom.




Yes, I heartily concede that female rapists exist. I myself was once molested by a cougar, in the midst of serving delicious chicken casserole in a fancy restaurant. She was drunk, and I was in the sexy, sexy uniform of the Marriott Hotel. I was asking for it, and I paid the price. Were that cougar to later confront me in the Marriott changing rooms, I would whimper profusely. Yet the shame would be hers. Shame and double shame. For how can man live if he does so in fear? Heroes must make their stand!

*loses his thread again*

And yes, those Chinese peasants have it bad, and polar bears are hooked on crack-cocaine. But one thing at a time. I think a few tweaks in the media and a fresh assault in the schools can start to curb the rape culture in a generation or so and open up the possibilities for unisex locker rooms. Let's hop to it.

 

[Astaroth]

@Brovo

So you're okay with the blanket statements I made regarding women then? Cool.

Seriously, you can't get on my case about what I said about men and ignore that I- according to your argument- also implied that all women are doormats and victims who ought to have stood up to their attackers.

I don't think I was unclear. Don't blame me for how you projected your interpretation onto what I said and took it- as I said- entirely out of context. Context is what gives things meaning. You can take any sentence alone and make it sound like a completely different statement than originally presented.

 

[Hellis]

I should probably refrain from making statements in debates such as this in the future. I get way to heated.

 

[Brovo]

Well then I apologize and will gracefully (or not so gracefully) pull out of this debate. Whichever you prefer, though hopefully you see the sincerity to the apology. 'Twas never my intention to project your argument as anything less than what it was.

 

[Fijoli]

Heres a nice documentary from Best in LGBT media :]

 

[Mid]

I would NEVER feel comfortable having a male in the same bathroom as me while using the toilet. I don't it with my boyfriends and I hate when my mother walks in while I'm using the bathroom. Some ppl don't care, they say we all pee and shit and fart and whatever. I care. I CARE. I'm very private about my business and I hate using public restrooms so really, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a transgender using the same restroom as me not because they're male...with a female inside but because they're a PERSON. Ugh it's just so awkward for me and I'm pretty sure the last thing a transgender is thinking about is raping anyone. I'm pretty sure theyre note concerned with the AWKWARDNESS AND POSSIBLE SHAMING THEY MAY ENDURE ALONG WITH CONFUSION OF WHAT BATHROOM THEY SHOULD USE then raping anyone. Saying or thinking such an insensitive comment is like the argument if gay men shouldn't adopt because they'll rape and turn the kids gay. ...IT'S STUPID.

Transgender get a lot of shit because of who they are. Like in jail, there's a big problem for male trans as they are often put in the male population despite having breasts and feminine qualities and are often RAPED by STRAIGHT males.

Smh, just ridiculous.

 

[Kooriryu]

Arright, after snarking a bit with Ocha, before the thread gets locked down, lemme get you some linky-loos and shit:

So basically I'mma swerve on "giving my opinion" and just give you advice on just googling up these folk: Janet Mock (I highly recommend looking her shit up), Cece McDonald, Laverne Cox, Chaz Bono, Thomas Beatie, and Aya Kamikawa (for the weeaboo crowd) for a quick rundown because as always

I am a HUUUUGE fan of Things Do Not Happen In A(n Isolated) Vaccuum™.

So here's some shit to use during your report to sound like you spent daaays researching:

http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

http://transequality.org/Resources/TransTerminology_2014.pdf

http://www.fenwayhealth.org/site/Do...ssary_of_Gender_and_Transgender_Terms__fi.pdf

Be particularly mindful around mtf, ftm, dfab, dmab; also pay some mind to whose perspective you're coming from since even the quickest of google searches result heavily in articles about trans women's experiences as opposed to trans men's experiences.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533

Like, peep the shit been going on:
Restoom usage has become a common, if not invasive talking point when discussing the transgender community. Most recently, California begame the first trans-inclusive state for restrooms in their public school system, which prompted swift backlash from right-wing conservatives. Such "bathroom panic" is an irrational fear that can be traced to the lack of understanding of various genders, and a belitting public fascination with what trans people have between their legs.
via http://mic.com/articles/93494/inside-one-hobby-lobby-employee-s-inspiring-fight-for-equality

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3088298

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/colorado-transgender-girl-banned-bathroom-wins-case/story?id=19471945

I mean, you can plug "transgender studies" into Google and get a fuckload of good shit. Hell, plugging in "transgender bathroom panic" gives some other good shit too. On that particular note, tracing what happened with Janet Mock after her Morgan Piers interview could give you hella good juice to write your paper. jussayin'

Morgan Piers is a potato-faced shitbaby.

 

[ElBell]

Final thought:

Proving sexuality is so hard, so my fear would be people lying about something of this nature in order to get what they want. For example, a teenage boy says he's trans to see boobs. Now I do know a few awesome LGBT people who'd never do this, but there are always assholes who'll ruin everything for everyone by being stupid and selfish...

 

[Sidhe]

Final thought:

Proving sexuality is so hard, so my fear would be people lying about something of this nature in order to get what they want. For example, a teenage boy says he's trans to see boobs. Now I do know a few awesome LGBT people who'd never do this, but there are always assholes who'll ruin everything for everyone by being stupid and selfish...

You're right saying that there are always going to be assholes. Assholes transcend gender, sexuality, race and religion. However, I'd also argue that there are far fewer 'assholes' (in the sense that someone would lie just to get a look at breasts*) in this situation than there are scared people just wanting to live their life. I don't think anyone needs to 'prove' their sexuality or their gender. What about gay folks? Do people need to prove that they're heterosexual to use a locker room? :(

* I say this despite the fact that I was assaulted by a 'friend' that pretended to be gay for ages so he could get close to me. I know that this happens - I just don't think it happens all that often.

 

[Alexa Ray]

Thank you very much everyone for your opinions! The debate has made me more understanding of the situation and I appreciate the help, especially the links from Kooriryu and the videos from Fijoli! :)

 

[Asmodeus]

I'm pretty sure the last thing a transgender is thinking about is raping anyone. I'm pretty sure theyre note concerned with the AWKWARDNESS AND POSSIBLE SHAMING THEY MAY ENDURE ALONG WITH CONFUSION OF WHAT BATHROOM THEY SHOULD USE then raping anyone. Saying or thinking such an insensitive comment is like the argument if gay men shouldn't adopt because they'll rape and turn the kids gay. ...IT'S STUPID.

Oh?!


OH?!


SO NOW TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE ARE TOO NERVOUS AND SKITTISH TO RAPE ANYONE?

AND GAY FATHERS WOULD NEVER SODOMIZE THEIR CHILDREN, BECAUSE THEY'RE SUCH GODDAM SAINTS?


You've offended me, Cosmos. Deeply. Arbitrarily deciding who can and can't be a rapist! Who do you think you are?





*derails the thread*




But seriously, that's just ignorance. Maybe a Transgendered person has got their shit together and is all about the rape. They're comfortable with themselves and the operation went well, and they've got a trust fund from their (gay) parents, and now they're free to focus on their number one past-time. RAPE.

And that bill last week, approving unisex restrooms, has just made the orchard ripe for plucking.



Bam! Transgender child raped by gay parents sodomizes the football captain at half time.






Okay, seriously for real now.... 40% of my point here is that we shouldn't use the "poor victimized nervous transgendered flopsie bunny" archetype as a reason to say no to unisex restrooms. They're not all awkward. I'm sure some of them are badass motherfuckers. Sure, they've never been comfortable with their former selves, but now that they've embraced their identity why shouldn't they be confident and have their shit together? A unisex bathroom isn't necessarily some harrowing baptism of fire for these people. For some, it could be a relief.


We need to cull as many stereotypes as possible in this debate, including the stereotype of some poor transgender teenager with bad hair whimpering as they fumble with their underwear and glance doe-like at the big mean Arkansan rapists on the next bench over.