Transgender Controversy

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Also, another quickie 'cuz I forgot to clarify in the original post mainly for the folk who're nosy but not nosy enough to click the shit I provided

mtf = male-to-female, usually in references to surgical correction
ftm = female-to-male," "

dmab = designated male at birth
dfab = designated female at birth

You're... probably gonna spend a really, big, huge chunk of your paper trying to define the differences between "sex" and "gender" so if you can find this at your local/campus/city library that's gr8: http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-Difference/dp/0393340244

The 101-iest of entry of intro of elementary of Fischer-Price of kiddie gloved samples on the topic you're gonna be talking about. Bonus points if you manage to veer away from those gender essentialism* and evolutionary psychology* traps.

* KEYWOOOOOOOOOOOOOORDS that are bullshit conceeeeeeeepts!
 
Oh?!


OH?!


SO NOW TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE ARE TOO NERVOUS AND SKITTISH TO RAPE ANYONE?

AND GAY FATHERS WOULD NEVER SODOMIZE THEIR CHILDREN, BECAUSE THEY'RE SUCH GODDAM SAINTS?


You've offended me, Cosmos. Deeply. Arbitrarily deciding who can and can't be a rapist! Who do you think you are?





*derails the thread*




But seriously, that's just ignorance. Maybe a Transgendered person has got their shit together and is all about the rape. They're comfortable with themselves and the operation went well, and they've got a trust fund from their (gay) parents, and now they're free to focus on their number one past-time. RAPE.

And that bill last week, approving unisex restrooms, has just made the orchard ripe for plucking.



Bam! Transgender child raped by gay parents sodomizes the football captain at half time.






Okay, seriously for real now.... 40% of my point here is that we shouldn't use the "poor victimized nervous transgendered flopsie bunny" archetype as a reason to say no to unisex restrooms. They're not all awkward. I'm sure some of them are badass motherfuckers. Sure, they've never been comfortable with their former selves, but now that they've embraced their identity why shouldn't they be confident and have their shit together? A unisex bathroom isn't necessarily some harrowing baptism of fire for these people. For some, it could be a relief.


We need to cull as many stereotypes as possible in this debate, including the stereotype of some poor transgender teenager with bad hair whimpering as they fumble with their underwear and glance doe-like at the big mean Arkansan rapists on the next bench over.


XD

To be clear, my point was that it is a poor excuse to not allow transgender use the restrooms that they mentally associate with. That stereotype is used as a reasoning for 100% of transgender which is stupid as out of every 10 of people in general, there may be one serial killer or two rapists (just an offhanded example). No one knows who a person truly is on the inside.

There are many transgenders who are confident in who they are, mainly adults as teens are often struggling for acceptance. Laverne Cox is probably the most well known transgender whom I love and respect due to her confidence in herself, especially for being a voice for those like herself.

Now...a unisex bathroom? I mean, we have single stall unisex bathrooms. When going yo McDonalds or something, they have a bathroom for a male and a female and there is ALWAYS a line for the women's bathroom. So me and my mom will use the men's bathroom to hear someone say "um like that's the men's room" and my mom retorts, it has a toilet right?

It's all about social norms. America is very stern in regards to separation which is seen when you look at our history. It is considered normal to have that kind of privacy compared to places in the UK where they do have unisex baths <_<.

Personally, I am just uncomfortable with ANYONE in a bathroom with me. I don't care who you are or what you want to be. I get so anxious about public restrooms and that's just something I cannot help. I literally hold my pee til I can't anymore <_<...;-;
 
@ElBell

First of all, sexuality and gender are two different things. Sexuality is your ability to experience sexual feelings and the manner in which you experience them, such as sexual orientation. Gender is how you identify in terms of the masculine and feminine. (Note that some people do not identify as either.)

Now: The idea that someone would pretend to be trans in order to sneak a peek is kind of ridiculous. The amount of social backlash that trans people get is deterrent enough. No one is THAT determined to see tits. There are much easier ways to see tits. Ones that don't get you beaten up, harassed for years after by your peers, and probably sent to a therapist.

Most trans people- especially if they've come out at a young age- will be pretty obviously sincere. Trans people do not just wake up one day and decide that their gender doesn't match their biology. They've felt this way their whole life, even if they don't have a word for it or can't express it properly. There are usually signs, even if they're only obvious in retrospect. A fair number of trans people are very vocal about it from a young age. Whether they continue to be varies depending on their individual situations and whether they feel safe openly identifying that way.

And as has been pointed out several times now, there are biologically female lesbians in those locker rooms who like tits too. For that matter, some transgirls like girls. Are they going to be excluded from the girls' room just for that? Since when do we segregate things based on sexual orientation?

Just FYI, there are also people who don't have any sexual interest in anyone. It's called asexuality. There are asexual guys and gals, too. Some of the trans peeps everyone is worrying about might be "aces" (asexuals).

Yes, there are assholes who will lie about their sexual orientation (and maybe their gender, although that is far less likely). But if they didn't have that avenue, they would just lie about something else to get the same effect. Assholes will be assholes.


Also, @Asmodeus is absolutely right. Not all transpeople are shrinking violets. Unisex bathrooms are one thing that can help them feel more confident, in fact, because a unisex bathroom doesn't enforce a ridiculous focus on what's between your legs and make you feel like you're possibly offending someone just by entering the room.
 
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:D Watching this thread makes me want to hurl angry kittens at people. Thank god Ozzie and Asmo are here, (never thought I'd be saying that one :P) because they are very good at debating without being overly aggressive.

In any case, honestly I don't think everyone will be able to tell the difference. No one's genitals are out, transwomen look like women, transmen look like men, they go into the bathroom and they blend in with that gender.

If we are sticking with gender separated bathrooms: It would be much stranger for a transmen, looking like a man, to go into the women's room. At that point, people are like, why is there a guy in the goddamn woman's room? In fact there was a trans man (Danny) who gave me a jump every time I saw him in our school in the ladies room. (At the time I didn't realize he was trans so I went to the teacher who then promptly told me he was biologically supposed to be female.) He's graduated now.

Also, for the point being made that other people can sneak into the ladies room pretending to be a transwoman, you think someone is going to dress like a girl to get into the ladies room? They are that sick they are going to dress like a female to hear people pee? Well you are right, there are people like that! And they can do that now. Because if you look like a girl, and you are in the ladies room, no one questions it! "But Kitty, Transwoman are taller... Sometimes!" Sometimes women are very tall too! "But Kitty... Transwomen have an adams apple!" And so do regular women. "But Kitty, transmen may have breasts!" Which are normally binded. There are all sorts of shapes of women and men, both can have facial hair, both can be chubby, both can be tall, short, ugly, pretty, whatever. I see girls in public bathrooms that look like men sometimes, does it mean they are men? Nope.
 
As a guy who's had to use the ladies' room, I can confirm that some women looked very freaked out by me being in there.

Which is a problem in and of itself. Women shouldn't feel threatened by the mere presence of a man in their restroom.


EDIT: And before someone misunderstands me again, I don't mean that women are wrong for feeling threatened. I mean that this speaks to a larger societal issue.
 
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@Ozzie Chanter look, no need to snap at me or even reply beyond this since I frankly don't care to debate. I am speaking from personal experience and opinion, and we obviously disagree and know differing groups of people.

Please don't educate me on sexuality. I know all I need to, and asexual didn't seem to have a thing to do with what you posted from how I read it. I myself have been through plenty of confusion. I've looked up everything to sort myself out. So I know that stuff fine. And about your lesbian point, I covered that with my bathroom point.

Where I live and with who I know, you wouldn't get beaten up for being trans. You just wouldn't. Maybe you know less accepting people or something, but using my swim team as an example, no one would dare question you if you just stated it one day.

Finally, gender and sexuality are interchangeable and so closely linked from wha give known that I don't see enough difference to justify having to explain it all. People just over label themselves in my
 
@ElBell

I wasn't snapping at you and nothing I said was directed at you personally. o__o If you don't care to debate, it's probably not a good idea to be posting in a thread with the Debate tag on it.

I differentiated sexuality from gender because you used "sexuality" in the context of talking about someone faking their gender, and I brought up asexuality to elaborate on the relevancy of sexual interest and ogling in locker rooms.

That is great that you know such accepting people! But that's not everyone's experience. In fact if you look it up, you will easily find that it is not the experience of a LOT of trans kids. I am speaking of my own experience and the experiences of friends.

And NO, gender and sexuality are not interchangeable. Some people use them that way, but that's inaccurate; they are completely separate. My sexual orientation has nothing to do with my gender. It's not about labels either. I don't give a fuck about labeling myself. It's about better understanding who I am as a person.
 
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@Ozzie Chanter

Part of my use of 'sexuality' there was the fact I was referring to a straight male faking in order to see more women at his discretion, so I do apologize if that read differently to you because of you seeing the two so separately. I still do find the line between gender and sexuality too blurry and confusing to distinct between very much, at least to me. You can probably blame certain friends of mine for that... -.-' I've had some friends do shit to just confuse people, so I'm probably just fucked up in that sense.

I guess I'm just weird then. I know all sorts of LGBT people who've been accepted, by swim team has a pretty gender neutral restroom, and I don't know lines of sexuality and gender well. That said, I probably should stop posting now since I just have been shown very different. I know it's not normally that way, but if you grow up being told blue is red and red is blue you can't exactly see things the way others do, even if you know you're wrong
 
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