Transgender Controversy

[Nikita]

Well I think we need to have unisex locker rooms and rest rooms then. And again the bullying/people ignoring you because you obviously don't have the right genetilia, who would want to place themselves in that obvious danger. No, we don't live in a perfect world, No, not everyone will see it that way, but I think that we need to take slower steps so we don't fall down hard when we try to rise up a little. Someday we can stand in front of the girls with a dick inbetween our legs and no one will care. But if we do that now it's just going to make progress fall back 50 years.

 

[Nikita]

I agree with butterfly we need to grow up and just have unisex bathrooms and locker rooms not just for transgender but for everyone.

 

[Nikita]

We are entering a new era of acceptance let's just make sure we don't set it back too far.

 

[Nikita]

And also it's not hiding, it's called protection from the evil bitches.

 

[Hatsune Candy]

That would be nice, but something like that is gonna take a good long while. It's certainly not gonna happen within this generation, I can tell you that much.

EDIT: Also, Nikita, I would advise that you didn't double post. There's an edit button for a reason.

 

[Nikita]

Hence my words of small steps and not putting it all down at once. We all know it's gonna take a while but we have to start now. Plus you never know.

 

[Asmodeus]

Communal restrooms. Educate men not to be perverts; educate women how to use scrotum-chopping switchblades.

I went to France once and used a restroom. There was a woman at the sink next to me, washing her tits. WASHING HER TITS.





SPOILERS: I didn't rape her.





Also, I didn't stare at her boobs or start asking for her phone number, because my mother taught me the finer points of NOT BEING A FUCKING RETARD when I was a wee lad.

Furthermore, the woman was okay washing her tits next to me, cos she was a hardy French woman who could outsmart me and out-kick-my-dick-off me.



We need to stop perpetuating the idea of shame, seclusion and sexual hierarchy. We're all fleshbags.


Yes, there may be fat masturbating rednecks or bro-gangs hopped up on whey protein. Maybe install some screens or panic buttons for those hot-bodied wallflowers who don't appreciate the rape-faces.

Think of the old traditional villages. Everyone washes in the river. Maybe the women go further upstream and around a corner. Maybe they hide behind a tree. But usually they have other women with them who can ball-chop. And maybe the men are conscious of the fact that if they get rape-happy they're likely to be tied to a rock and pushed into the Hungry Hungry Volcano.


*starts losing his thread*



But yeah - the naked body is tabooized (tabooed? tabooinated?) enough. That's why pornography has a little "OMG MUST SEE FLESH!" niche carved out for itself. Bring flesh back into public life where it belongs.



SIDE NOTE: The traditional Serial Killer profile is rooted in a violent reaction to the mechanization of the human body in modern society. Faces, clothes and houses are superficial coverings for the visceral life within, and the Serial Killer is compelled to invade them in order to perceive the internal, and thus fill the hollow within his own identity. Jus' sayin'.



I don't really mind getting my todger out in front of my fellow humans, as long as they don't stare profusely at my genitals like those old folk in Arkansas locker rooms do. But that's another matter, to be solved with a tactical nuke.


In short (*gains an Irony Point*), bring those transgender motherfuckers my way and let's rub butts. It's a brave new world, baby.

 

[Kylulu]

Like I said before it all depends on how the majority of the students feel about sharing restrooms/locker rooms with transgender people.

If we took the choices of the majority of Students/Faculty, there would be communities where transgendered students would be denied access to either washroom or lockeroom, because everyone's too narrow-minded to understand that gender identity is sometimes very complicated. Giving the power to police a minority's freedoms to the majority is never a good plan.

 

[Fijoli]

These Transgender Tyra show segments really helped me to understand. Maybe these will help you on your school Project too. <3

 

[Kestrel]

I remember when I was a freshman, there was a bet between two groups of girls where the loser had to change in the boys' locker room. Thirteen year old me had hormones going out of their mind that day. No rape or cheesy pick-up lines occurred, hold your horses, but 20-odd boys in their puberty A.) Didn't shower that day and B.) Pretty much silently organised an estafette run of glances because apparently at that point everyone forgot they'd ever been on a beach before. I'm sure this was uncomfortable for the girls. Hell, they were supposed to feel uncomfortable, those were the stakes of the bet. However, during puberty most of us discover our sexual side and we're not super-good at dealing with that at that age.

While gender-neutral locker rooms would be the ideal solution in theory, this part of exploring sexuality makes this question a lot, lot trickier than just that. I mean, you can't force someone to change their sexuality, I'm sure we all agree there, but this also means that (sexual) attraction will occur and that is not easy to deal with when you're going through puberty. You're literally and figuratively naked in the showers. This can and will make people uncomfortable. And this is before taking transgender into the equation. Gender-neutral locker rooms would need a major culture-shift to be successful, not focusing on something retarded like Asmodeus' very... Feminist example of teach-men and switchblades, but sexuality in general. That doesn't mean we should go all-out bonobo as a species (although outside of STD becoming the #1 cause of death, it would be ideal in theory,) but rather teach people that sexual attraction is normal and okay to show. Be more open about it. I mean, unlike sexuality itself, that is something we can change, but I know for a fact is a far less popular option.

Toilets, on the other hand, could totally be uni-sex because who gives a fuck?

 

[Kitty]

Transgenders are much more likely to be assaulted, and I would worry about a transgender male to female walking into a male restroom and getting harped on. Also if these trans members are passable, girls may be more worried about a Male (fxm) in the bathroom (not knowing he was trans) and a (mxf) in a male's restroom or locker room may also be uncomfortable actually thinking they are biologically the gender they appear to be.

Life would be a lot easier if I could just find a hole to take a piss in without worrying about these hard questions. I'm with the others on unisex restrooms.

 

[Diana]

Asmo pretty much said everything I wanted to say. o__o

The entire idea of separate bathrooms is stupid. The ONLY reason we have these separate bathrooms is because of sexual repression and nakedness shaming. Guys aren't going to go molesting girls just because they see them in their underwear, and girls shouldn't be all OMG A MAN IS LOOKING AT ME either, cause they're just as bad at staring. Especially considering there's plenty of gay people with you in your bathrooms and locker rooms that are obviously NOT raping you in there. Our transgendered people wouldn't have to worry about this BS if our culture wasn't still trapped in these very outdated practices.

Stalls in all bathrooms and locker rooms for privacy! That is ALL you need! I am a straight girl. I didn't like ANYBODY seeing me naked, so I hid in stalls to change my clothes. Other girls didn't give any fucks and were running around boob free and happy. People can still choose to have their privacy in bathrooms and locker rooms if you provide stalls. And no one is going to get molested. >:[

Yes, transgendered people are still going to have trouble about their bits, but that is a different culture problem we have to fix. D:

 

[Disgruntled Goat]

Stalls in all bathrooms and locker rooms for privacy! That is ALL you need! I am a straight girl. I didn't like ANYBODY seeing me naked, so I hid in stalls to change my clothes. Other girls didn't give any fucks and were running around boob free and happy. People can still choose to have their privacy in bathrooms and locker rooms if you provide stalls. And no one is going to get molested. >:[

When I was growing up, I was an awkward little fat kid with absolutely zero body confidence. I would change at lightning speed and never shower at school because of how uncomfortable it made me feel, because I didn't want the other guys staring at me and judging me. My self-esteem couldn't take it.

Physical education classes were about fifty/sixty people at a time, so creating sixty stalls just isn't viable, and if you had ten stalls and people had to queue, then you're going to have to cut the lesson short fifteen minutes (at least) early to give people time to change. You'd need that time at the start and end of the class, too, so an hour-long class has now become thirty minutes of sport and thirty minutes of getting changed. I'm all for gender-neutral bathrooms with stalls, but I'm not sure how to make it work in a locker room concept.

Yes, if you had one locker room for all students, then you could have one colossal room, but it could end up needing 150 stalls to allow everyone to change at once. Maybe if you had ~120 students changing for the same class, then you could have 80 stalls on the grounds that some of those kids are going to change a lot faster than the others. What about showering though? Blacked out shower cubicles? Sure, but how many do you need? 60? 80 again? In a gym you can get away with having a handful of cubicles because it's not like everyone comes and goes at the same time, but in a school locker room, you're trying to herd a class of 60/120 through all at the same time. I'm struggling to find a way to make it viable. /:

 

[Razilin]

How is this an issue?

Everyone follows the tacit, unspoken law of bathrooms right?

In men's rooms/lockers, look up.

In women's rooms/lockers, close the stall door.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

 

[Lady B]

When I was a little girl going swimming with my dad, he'd take me into the men's locker room so I could get changed, because I couldn't very well do so by my own in the women's locker room. This is seen as something completely normal, and whenever I go to the public pool I see mother's with their boys getting changed and no one bats an eye about it. But as I've grown older I have become an object of sexual desire, something to be hidden away so that the sex-crazed boys wouldn't get to me. Now, that's not because of my own choice or because of some unspoken natural law, it's because of standards and stereotypes imposed by society. While I do realize that yes, during and after puberty we all become sexual beings and it's very hard to stifle attraction, humans have this very nifty function called intelligence, and because of it we are able to learn things. Such as to keep our friggin' hands off of each other. Seriously, it's not that hard. I tried it just today, didn't touch anyone without their consent. Pretty amazeballz. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't like the idea of separating people based on their native sex. Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again, change isn't as gradual and as time consuming as some people think. I mean just look at how far we've come just this millennium when it comes to human equality and rights as a whole. Who can even tell what amazing and astounding changes the next fifteen years will bring?

 

[Astaroth]

There are a few points here which have been raised that I would like to challenge:

1. "It makes me uncomfortable that someone with the opposite parts is using my restroom."

Why? What exactly is bothering you?

It's very likely that you won't see these parts (in a bathroom scenario, at least). There are stalls, no one is usually looking at each other to begin with in these scenarios (it's considered rude), and even FTM transdudes with Stand to Pee devices either use stalls or have something that looks pretty convincing (although again, you shouldn't be looking that closely). So it can't be that the sight bothers you.

It's also very unlikely that they're perving on you. Some trans people are straight, some are gay. Some cisgendered (same gender as their biological sex) people are straight, some are gay. There's a much higher chance that there are biological girls who like girls in your girls' locker room (or vice versa with boys). As someone else said, are we going to make gay guys go in the ladies' room too?

Yes, your comfort should be considered. However, you might want to ask yourself if there is any real effect on you here. Is this affecting you more than it affects them? Who is more at risk?


2. "My friend is trans and she agrees with me."

Okay. But I'm trans and I don't. One person's opinion cannot stand for the entire group.


3. "They have to be modest."

That sounds a lot like, "I don't mind as long as I don't have to see it." This implies that what they are doing is something shameful. In this case, you are saying their bodies are shameful. Teenagers in general and transkids in particular already have enough shame about their bodies. No, it's not courteous to go shove your junk in someone's face- regardless if it's the same junk they have or not- but if someone is just minding their own business and YOU don't want to see it, it's on YOU not to look.


4. "It violates my privacy."

How does it violate your privacy any more than any other person using the same facility violates it?


5. "The majority/community/students should decide."

This is dangerous when it comes to situations involving the rights of minorities. Because they're the minority. You are basically saying that they had better hope that everyone else is sensitive to their needs, because their own voice will never be enough.


6. "It's okay if they've had surgery."

Most kids are not going to have had surgery. Some adults won't have it either; this may be because of financial reasons, personal choice (especially for Female To Male, when the surgical options are not as good), legal obstacles, or medical reasons.

And what exactly is so important about the surgery? When you get down to it, it is very superficial.

What about hermaphroditic kids? Some people are born with both male and female parts. What bathroom do you think they should use?


7. "Comfort zones have to be respected."

Yeah, I know I already talked about this, but I feel there's a second point to make here. Aside from why it makes people uncomfortable, I want to address the people saying that comfort is so important.

Does your comfort outweigh someone else's? Do you think you have more right to comfort than they do? If someone forced you to use another bathroom because they didn't want you in there, how would you feel?

I would like to point out that saying "I'm not comfortable with ___ people using the same bathroom as me" is a sentiment that we've seen before in history. The United States used to have separate bathrooms and locker rooms because white people weren't comfortable sharing.


8. "It will protect them from harassment."

No. It won't. Unfortunately, trans people get harassed no matter what bathroom they use. Transwomen and transmen both get harassed and sexually assaulted in public restrooms. Trans kids get picked on in school. By both their own genders and the opposite.

The way to address that is education about transgenderism, sexism, keeping your fucking hands to yourself, self defense, and the effects of bullying. Not forcing people to go wherever you think they'll be safer. Not by putting the blame on them instead of the people who are harassing them.


9. "It's what I believe. They can't take it personally."

You have the right to your beliefs. However, there's a problem when you start making other people adhere to your beliefs. It's like making a Christian participate in Muslim prayer or making a vegetarian eat meat because you think it's rude if they don't.


10. "People could get assaulted."

Yeah. That is a problem. One that has to do with SEXISM, not what junk someone has. The mentalities that lead to assaults and rapes are what we need to address. Asmo pretty much knocked this one out of the park.


One more thing, unrelated:

not focusing on something retarded like Asmodeus' very... Feminist example of teach-men and switchblades

Okay, look, "feminist" is not a dirty word. It means you believe women ought to have all the same rights that men do. I'd like to think that most people in this day and age are feminists. I am, because I'm not a sexist douche.

Men do need to be taught that rape isn't okay. Women do need to be taught that standing up to men is okay. I'm not seeing anything retarded here.

 

[Kitty]

Thanks Ozzie. Honestly your well thought out response warms my heart.

 

[Brovo]

Men do need to be taught that rape isn't okay. Women do need to be taught that standing up to men is okay. I'm not seeing anything retarded here.

What. What. I'm a man, I never needed to be taught that sticking my man parts in a female, or a male, without their express consent, is not acceptable behaviour. Just like I didn't need to be taught that murdering people is not okay. Most human beings are equipped with a sense of right and wrong, and while a lot of things need to be taught, some things just feel wrong on a basic level. Violating a person's basic physical space and harming and/or killing them (which is the end result of rape) tends to trigger something called "empathy."

Ultimately though, the reason why the whole concept of "men need to be taught not to rape" is ludicrous is because rape is not a gender specific crime. Any person can sexually assault any other person. And it happens. Daily. Against all genders. So the idea that only one sex needs to be taught not to rape is just... Ridiculously offensive and a sexist concept in and of itself.

Still, I'm sure that wasn't your intention, as most who state that line make no intent of dehumanizing a group of people, or painting one sex as being "more prone to evil" than the other.

You want to fix sex-related crimes? First, you need to teach everyone exactly what consent is in legal terms. You need to teach everyone to look at people as just that--people, first. A woman is a person first. A man is a person first. A white is a person first. A black is a person first. And people all deserve equal rights and freedoms, all deserve some level of respect, privacy, freedom of speech and association and all that lovely stuff many of our forefathers fought and died for.

Telling men not to rape isn't going to stop the rapists among them. There's something seriously pretty wrong with them already for them to be doing that.

tl;dr: Please don't pretend that rape is a male only crime. That doesn't help your argument and it certainly doesn't help rape victims.

 

[ElBell]

All I'll say is we need 3 bathrooms and people having the choice of what they use. That's my opinion, and I don't want to say any more since I know I'm the minority of what people think about this issue and I'd rather not be drug into a hardcore, serious debate like I do every time I voice a thought.

 

[Jargo]

First world problems..... Meanwhile in China they have entire villages that make several yuan a day by burning old plastic to get metals and rarely live to get 30. But sure, which toilet you use is a far more important issue, as long as you get to type the thread through your smartphone, which is cheaper (not to you, lol, to the company selling it, of course) because of slave labour. Oh yeah, down-vote this as much as you want. Actually, since I've started this topic anyways, do you know that the percentage of people around the world who don't have access to the very basic hygiene supplies exceeds the population of the US. Some of them actually live in the US.