Games you dislike that everyone loves

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That's one jump to update with technology (and because they switched to the Console Market primarily). Within the handheld world and console world specifically though they're largely the same.
Except that it isn't just a technology thing. Changing from a top-down perspective 2D game to a free-roaming 3D game involves a lot more than just aesthetic changes. It completely changes the way dungeons work and how the game is played. O_o It's entirely possible to have massively updated graphics and still essentially have top-down graphics on a grid, where the only thing '3D' about it is just a visual change as opposed to massively changing the gameplay. I mean, Pokemon did it. Gen IV advertised a new 3D look, and the graphics were definitely improved a lot from the series' origins, but your movement in that game is still very similar to Gen I. This is not at all the difference between original LoZ and OoT, where the way you move and the layout of the land is all very different.

These are all shifting mechanics you're listing. Same idea, different skinning.
>_> Except not all the games have shifting mechanics. I only used them because they were good examples of massively different gameplay modes. A few games that do not include shifting mechanics include: the original LoZ, Zelda II, Skyward Sword, and probably others -- although I haven't played every Zelda game, so I don't want to speak for examples that I haven't played. My point is that, between the ones that I've played, I feel like they've all been a lot more diverse than Pokemon or Mario games.

And I'd say that saying "they all involve shifting" is still too surface-level for me to really say "it's all the same". Like, yeah, you can transform link into different things, but the things you transform into all bring some very different gameplay modes. The experience of giving up your sword and other weapons so that you can sniff things out with your wolf nose and dig to get through places that human Link can't feels very different from the experience of going back in time to turn into child Link, while child Link also has a very different version of Hyrule to explore than adult Link does, then go to an area that's only accessible in the past, and change some minute thing that creates a much bigger change when you go back to the future.

Like, yeah, they're technically both shifting mechanics, but I'd say that's still nowhere near as homogeneous as every main series Pokemon game having you catch pokemon under essentially the exact same rules, using the same types of pokeballs (plus new ones, but still), only letting you carry six pokemon at a time, transferring extras to the PC, then letting you battle those pokemon with essentially the same rules and type advantages in each game... etc.

Like, if you tried hard enough, you could boil any game series down to the same mechanics over and over. If they had nothing in common, then there's no reason for them to be a series. But Zelda and Pokemon are clearly on completely different levels in this regard.

And not to mention, not every Zelda game revolves around a shifting mechanic. For example, consider the newest upcoming game, Breath of the Wild. Some of the things it's advertising right now are things like: a huge, open game world to explore (along with implications that it's more open-ended than other Zelda games with a more linear story), taking away the thing about Link being able to get hearts from enemies and cutting down grass, instead meaning the player has to cook their own food to restore health, making the player ensure that Link is properly dressed for whatever environment he's in (as not giving Link warm enough clothes in cold places will mean that he'll lose health -- which they haven't done in other games before), etc. All of those are fairly new things for the Zelda series. Yeah, you could argue that you're still a sword-wielding dude running across Hyrule, but it still seems like they change enough things from game to game to make a lot of the gameplay experience varied enough.

Or at least, way more varied than Pokemon.

Aaaaaand I was wondering if this confusion was going to pop up again or not.

Criticising a game =/= Not enjoying a game.
If you can't criticise something it's kind doomed to fail because it refuses to address it's flaws.

Ever since I mentioned I wasn't buying the next pokemon title you seem to have adopted the idea of anytime I'm critiquing a game I must dislike the game. When in truth my reason for not buying pokemon again wasn't out of a dislike, but because I didn't want to spend enough money for a whole new game for just minor differences. I still enjoy pokemon, I still enjoy the series. Me not buying one title and explaining why is not the same as me not liking said series.
:/ Yeah, but you're still implying that keeping things the same is a flaw. A flaw that makes it not worth it to buy their games (which sends a much louder message to the actual game devs than just words alone). And you also make it sound as if Zelda is just as bad as Pokemon in the 'keeping things the same' department. Which, again, brings up the question, how much does a game have to change in order for this to not be a flaw? How should a game balance not keeping too many things the same with not changing the things that made it good? If there existed a perfect video game series that found this perfect balance, what do you think that would look like?

Also, I feel I should point out, that listing a game series like Pokemon in a thread titled "games you dislike that everyone else loves" implies that, yes, you do dislike it. :P
 
@Gwazi Magnum @Kagayours

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Awakening was perhaps the biggest leap with introducing dual support and children.
It didn't introduce children to the series. Genealogy of the Holy War (the fourth title) did.
 
*Makes a quick point on Nintendo design style*
*Get's said quick point entirely miss-represented and then argued to death*
*Others then lump me in with planning to have said argument*

... Seriously? >.<

Is it impossible for me to critique Nintendo without people defending it to death at one side, and then for others to instantly assume I'm going to do the same back?
It didn't introduce children to the series. Genealogy of the Holy War (the fourth title) did.
Huh... :/
Well, I guess Fire Emblem advanced less than I thought too.
 
*Makes a quick point on Nintendo design style*
*Get's said quick point entirely miss-represented and then argued to death*
*Others then lump me in with planning to have said argument*

... Seriously? >.<

Is it impossible for me to critique Nintendo without people defending it to death at one side, and then for others to instantly assume I'm going to do the same back?

:/ All I said was that I didn't understand how Zelda could be considered nearly as same-y as Pokemon.

And then, if you still think Zelda is so same-y, I asked what amount of change from one game to the next you think would be ideal for a game series. It seems like even really general aspects of gameplay being kept the same is a flaw, in your opinion, but, that makes me wonder -- how much is a game supposed to change, without losing what made the early entries good to begin with?

I'm not trying to be hostile or anything. I'm now legitimately curious about your stance on this. And my intention wasn't to make Nintendo into a sacred cow or anything -- as I'll definitely acknowledge Pokemon as being repetitious. I just legitimately don't see how Zelda can be placed on the same level as Pokemon in that regard.

Sorry if I mis-understood your argument. It seemed like you were listing Nintendo games that you thought were same-y and repetitious, and I saw Zelda on that list and had to disagree.

In any case, Gwazi, I think we're starting to annoy everyone else here, and we should probably take this to PM's.

...And, yes, I did realize about halfway through typing this that this post itself should probably be a PM. But trying to highlight, cut, and paste would be a pain on my phone, and I don't feel like re-typing all this. So, sorry about that, folks. >_> I'll make sure my next post stays in PM's if this continues.
 
... Seriously? >.<

Is it impossible for me to critique Nintendo without people defending it to death at one side, and then for others to instantly assume I'm going to do the same back?
In any case, Gwazi, I think we're starting to annoy everyone else here, and we should probably take this to PM's.
Personally (can't speak for no other folks now y'all), I was just poking fun at the two of you. Gettin' so lengthy 'bout the merits of this 'er' that thing 'bout all them vidya games from Nintendon't. A friendly jab, nothin' more. Tap on the shoulder, ain't no judgin' from me.

Everyone's got their own thing. Everybody enjoys something that is, in retrospect, objectively crap. Sometimes, you might just not enjoy something that is popular, you might not even understand why others enjoy that thing. Like I don't get why people enjoy Dark Souls nearly as much as they do. I can see how it has its merits, but I don't enjoy it. I don't get how the live action Transformers movies managed four films and raked in absurd profit margins on each and every one for what amounted to nothing more than explosions and poor acting. I could not answer you why people seem to enjoy intentionally devouring plants and animals that, if prepared with even the slightest error, will end your life. I dunno why people jump out of planes and depend on a simple piece of fabric to save them from plummeting to their deaths--surely there's cheaper and safer ways to get an adrenaline rush.

We all...
  • Enjoy some things that are popular.
  • Find other things that are popular dumb.
  • Enjoy something objectively and appallingly bad.
  • Rightfully join the masses in jeering something objectively and appallingly bad.
Some people are more contrarian than others (I fall into that side of the spectrum certainly), but it doesn't stop me from enjoying something mainstream once in a while. That's the beautiful thing about fiction and what not. Me and someone else can debate the merits of a property or franchise for eternity and, at the end of the day, nobody's really right or wrong in an objective sense, because all art is subjective by nature. Art is emotive, and all media is art. Whether you think it compelling or boorish, refreshing or trite, rewarding or frustrating--it's all personal. Nobody is going to convince me that Dark Souls has a reasonable level of programming. To me, it's plagued to death with game-killing bugs. Then again, I've always been more of a strategy gamer--so I'm sure the same can be said of Paradox strategy titles. They're buggy as fuck too, yet I can get past the bugs and enjoy them for hours and hours on end.

Everybody has their own cup of tea. Some like it sweet, some don't. I like mine Earl Grey with a touch of honey.

At the end of the day, debating the merits of one's tastes and interpretations of works, while amusing, is ultimately silly. Everyone engages in it (I certainly do), but it's sometimes good to get a slap to the back of the head reminding us that it's all silly fiction at the end of the day. Whatever you feel is equally valid to however anyone else feels.

Unless, you know, you like Twilight, or The Big Bang Theory.

Then you just have an objectively terrible taste in fiction. :ferret:

Cheers.

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EDIT: No seriously though you two are fine. I'm just being a curmudgeon and being amused by the intensity of the debate over what essentially amounts to animals with superpowers and a guy wearing a dress stabbing things with a shiny sword to save a damsel in distress. Ain't nothin' wrong with doing so, I'm just lampshading how silly it is and maybe reminding you two to remember that nobody can feel wrong about a work. Wanting things to be different is not wrong, neither is enjoying something for being familiar.

ART! CRITICISM! TEA! WHEE!
 
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I don't get the lasting appeal of games like Pokemon and Animal Crossing.
 
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