Fate/Grandiose Delusion

I see where he's coming from with the magecraft thing, though it's never stated that they can't coexist as far as I remember, it's just that modern people can't pronounce the words anymore and I would think that Moses would be able to do it, after talking to God (not that he is a modern human anyway). Unless of course, you're going the Gilles de Rais way and make the staff a focus which simply actualizes divine mysteries because God lolz.
Also, Ramesses literally rides around on a god's boat, so while his magecraft might not have been divine, the rest of him his.
Hmm boils sound like the black death.
 
I split it into a pair of noble phantasms with the staff as more of a utility package encompassing a few legends and made the 10 plagues their own.

Black death seems solid. I went with the bubonic for the animal disease.

My point about Ramses was that Egyptian magic is based in such a way that really seems like divine words type and that if the Egyptian gods exist it'd make sense for it to be divine words and not really magecraft. Its not such a terribly big deal so much that it seemed odd for divine words to not be around then.
 
Interesting. I hope he can still make water come out of a stone by touching it with the stick :P

Yep, it would be strange if they weren't around anymore at that time, considering that Ramesses still has Divinity, he should be able to speak divine words too.
 
I bundled it into a more generalized manipulation or the staff would have a bazillion things it couod do.
 
I've posted everything I can post, and am just waiting for everyone to reply.

Also, wouldn't the horn that anointed David have brought Samuel not David considering he anointed David with it?
 
The Silver Paladin said:
Also, wouldn't the horn that anointed David have brought Samuel not David considering he anointed David with it?
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Oh it doesn't matter as much what was done with it, so long as the heroic spirit had some connection to it during his life.

Just like you can summon a billion different people with a splinter of the round table.
 
YandereClock said:
Oh it doesn't matter as much what was done with it, so long as the heroic spirit had some connection to it during his life.

Just like you can summon a billion different people with a splinter of the round table.
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Alright, thanks.
 
considering that Ramesses still has Divinity, he should be able to speak divine words too.
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Divinity has nothing to do with Divine Words, though. Iskander and George get the former, but they sure don't qualify for the latter.

Besides, Rams's Divinity is more because the Pharaoh's revered as the incarnation of a god, rather than because he had a god parent.
 
@The Silver Paladin Sorry I haven't posted, haven't been able to get on a computer much, and I'm also waiting on Hercules a little. Plus I don't know what to have Saber say, bit of writers block been clouding that train of thought. Over all, I've just been busy with some stuff.
 
ConvexAtaraxia said:
Divinity has nothing to do with Divine Words, though. Iskander and George get the former, but they sure don't qualify for the latter.
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You just had to take the worst examples, didn't you? They both only got C, Iskander since there's no evidence he even is the son of Zeus and George because he's on the level of deities from minor cults being a major saint and all that.

Now let's take Karna, Herc and Gil. All of them could have Divine Words, they just don't have it because it would be a useless skill, just like Medea could have Divinity but for some reason doesn't. Just because they don't have the skill doesn't mean they can't speak it. They lived in the Age of Gods in their countries, so Ramesses who most likely lived during the Egyptian Age of Gods should have been able to do so. Especially if he is an incarnation of Osiris, like you said.
 
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YandereClock said:
You just had to take the worst examples, didn't you? They both only got C, Iskander since there's no evidence he even is the son of Zeus and George because he's on the level of deities from minor cults being a major saint and all that.

Now let's take Karna, Herc and Gil. All of them could have Divine Words, they just don't have it because it would be a useless skill, just like Medea could have Divinity but for some reason doesn't. Just because they don't have the skill doesn't mean they can't speak it. They lived in the Age of Gods in their countries, so Ramesses who most likely lived during the Egyptian Age of Gods should have been able to do so. Especially if he is an incarnation of Osiris, like you said.
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Chiron also got C, he's a god turned mortal, so I figure he's the best parallel for Rams anyhow. Seems like the best line to draw, neh?

But you're kinda strawmanning me here, you know? I'm just saying Divinity =/= Divine Words, because it's possible to have Divinity without having lived in the AoG, as proven by Iskander and George. They have Divinity, but they're in no way AoG, so you can have Divinity without being AoG/without having Divine Words. There are also AoG magi who didn't use Divine Words, see the Celts, but their runes were on a similar scale in terms of speed-to-power so meh. Either way I was just saying Divinity wouldn't get you Divine Words, especially the kind of Divinity that's more conditional like Rams's. They're different things, they just both use the word "divine". Having Divine Spirit aptitude doesn't give you Divine Words.

Karna wouldn't get Divine Words either. Hinduverse was too slow to earn Divine Words, even though they were AoG. Hinduverse truly is nerfed in Nasuland. Tragic. Herc doesn't qualify for Castah, so if he knew how to use HSDW to achieve nature interference and things like that, that seems weird. He's not "I have High Thaumaturgy Now" Achilles, after all. And Gil's Gil.

As for Rams being AoG or not, I won't speak to that cause that's headcanony. Keep in mind though that AoG =/= BCE, though of course I'm assuming you already know that.
 
How the heck am I strawmanning you? I didn't try to pwn you by claiming that something you said means something totally different to what that actually meant, as far as I can see. Of course you can have Divinity without being from the AoG, without having Divine words and I never denied that, but those Divinities are always either self proclaimed or come from the fact that they had some kind of cult following them. Saints are shady anyway.

Also, you're so focused on the HSDVw skill and comepletely overlook the fact that divine words were the language of the AoG, not just a Thaumaturgical Theory. So yea, Herc might not have had any idea how to cast spells, but he probably knew how to speak the words. No, I have no idea how that changes anything either.

I'm not even gonna try and fight you on the Hinduverse, since you got staging ground bonus there. But I guess if they were too slow, the Egyptians with their picture books might also have been too young to learn them.

Yes I do know that and every divine era in history has it's own end yadda yadda.
 
YandereClock said:
How the heck am I strawmanning you? I didn't try to pwn you by claiming that something you said means something totally different to what that actually meant, as far as I can see. Of course you can have Divinity without being from the AoG, without having Divine words and I never denied that, but those Divinities are always either self proclaimed or come from the fact that they had some kind of cult following them. Saints are shady anyway.

Also, you're so focused on the HSDVw skill and comepletely overlook the fact that divine words were the language of the AoG, not just a Thaumaturgical Theory. So yea, Herc might not have had any idea how to cast spells, but he probably knew how to speak the words. No, I have no idea how that changes anything either.

I'm not even gonna try and fight you on the Hinduverse, since you got staging ground bonus there. But I guess if they were too slow, the Egyptians with their picture books might also have been too young to learn them.

Yes I do know that and every divine era in history has it's own end yadda yadda.
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Cause you were trying to argue something I never brought up. All I was saying is Divinity =/= Divine Words, I never claimed anything past that. You said "considering that Ramesses still has Divinity, he should be able to speak divine words too.", I said "Just having Divinity doesn't mean you can use HSDW, see Iskander and George", and then you claimed those were bad examples and etc, and now we're here. I'm not sure what points you were trying to make, but since you agree that Divinity =/= Divine Words, I'm not sure what you saw in my initial post that made you need to say I was using poor examples and whatnot.

And yeah, I know that bit about HSDW, that's why I specified the "to achieve nature interference" line on Herc. Again, inno what point you're trying to make, but yeah, not disputing that.
 
The point I'm trying to make is that Moses could use divine words.
 
But I was never talking about that in the first place?
 
But I did~

You talked about how Ram's Divinity didn't mean that he had to be able to use DW, which in turn would mean that Moses wouldn't be able to either cause same time.
 
Wouldn't Moses have some sort of immunity to David's Ark Phantasm? Considering Moses made it?
 
The Silver Paladin said:
Wouldn't Moses have some sort of immunity to David's Ark Phantasm? Considering Moses made it?
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I'm pretty sure that's not how it works....at all. He would probably also have some immunity to the altar, if God doesn't wanna smite him, but since it's not in the NP text it doesn't matter.

Aunt Edit says: Now that I look at the text again I'm not so sure anymore, since it's worded a bit weirdly. Good thing that we have a GM to worry about such things for us~
 
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IIRC, the translations for David stuff has a lot of made-up stuff lumped in that's not there in the moonrunes, like a Coke translation.

Don't quote me on that, though.
 
The answer is no. Moses could not touch the Ark safely. Even another David couldn't touch the ark safely, I'm pretty sure. Because its no longer the age of the gods, God isn't there, manually checking whether someone who has the right is touching the noble phantasm of the ark or not. It is an arbitrary ability of the ark itself, tied to David. So "without authorization" likely means "without David's authorization". Similarly, Moses can do plagues on anyone. He isn't restricted to not being able to do anything to any Israelites. The technical wording of the text shouldn't change the fact that there's no higher being double checking/doing the work.

On another note, praying is going to be pretty awkward to Moses. He's so used to actually getting answers back.
 
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