The struggle of being a meat eater

[Mid]

Mk I'll bite.

No, I do not like the idea of eating bugs nor would I willing eat them because seeing a bug makes me freak the fuck out. Yes, I know in 'merica, the FDA approves a certain amount of bugs in our foods before it becomes unsafe (although how do they regulate that makes you wonder) but by then these bugs are basically non existent in their original form anyways.

Yes, I know bugs have protein however I find myself frozen in tears at the mere sight of a ladybug. Yes, 4srs. I just cannot take them. For those of you who have Netflix, check out Snow Piercer. They had a pretty good scene were folks found out the protein bars they'd been begging for weren't exactly what they thought lol.

I also would not eat lab grown meat. Sorry but we are already having high tolerance towards antibiotics due to our food sources being injected with that and hormones. Kids are growing "faster" as a result and some of us are becoming more vulnerable to illness.

I feel like with lab grown meat, these will be as poorly regulated as our meat is today. And if it's grown as an animal, then that is a life. Remember The Island film? People were made for donating organs without even knowing? There's so much meddling with cloning and "designer" babies that you have to really consider what new outbreaks can occur AND how easy it would be to infect a large population or create some new kind of strain. Hell, can you imagine how expensive it would be? This would also put farmers out of work as well as small businesses because they too would have to pick up prices to earn a decent living.

I pass <_<

 

[Dervish]

Thank you for your honest input!

One point I do feel is important to address is your point that we're growing resistant to anti-biotics because of genetically modified food. I don't have proper internet to actually go searching for sources, but I am all but certain that that's all been debunked, especially since it shares parallels to the whole organic food vs. regular food argument (and for the record, produce is washed throughly before being shipped out and simply by properly washing it when you get it all but removes any residual pesticides. The toxins in an apple, for instance, would kill you far before the pesticides would make you will) and the anti-vaccine movement.

But the main thing I want to address is our quality of life and lifespans have increased hugely since modern food practices and medicine came into being. The only reason we notice that virtually everyone has an illness now is because we can actually detect and diagnose them, and we aren't dying off from something far more obvious first.

In short, I wouldn't worry so much about what you're eating, especially in the developed world. We have it pretty darn good here.

 

[Kagayours]

Thank you for your honest input!

One point I do feel is important to address is your point that we're growing resistant to anti-biotics because of genetically modified food. I don't have proper internet to actually go searching for sources, but I am all but certain that that's all been debunked, especially since it shares parallels to the whole organic food vs. regular food argument (and for the record, produce is washed throughly before being shipped out and simply by properly washing it when you get it all but removes any residual pesticides. The toxins in an apple, for instance, would kill you far before the pesticides would make you will) and the anti-vaccine movement.

But the main thing I want to address is our quality of life and lifespans have increased hugely since modern food practices and medicine came into being. The only reason we notice that virtually everyone has an illness now is because we can actually detect and diagnose them, and we aren't dying off from something far more obvious first.

In short, I wouldn't worry so much about what you're eating, especially in the developed world. We have it pretty darn good here.

Aye.

Genetically modified food is just... food but with different genetics, and isn't too different from selectively breeding crops, which humans have been doing since the dawn of civilization.

There's no reason why consuming crops with different DNA would in any way lead to a resistance to antibiotics. Like... I don't even see the connection.

Also, I'm pretty sure the whole antibiotic thing doesn't have as much to do with people growing resistant to them as much as the bacteria growing resistant. Survival of the fittest, yo -- if a strain of bacteria gains a genetic mutation that makes it resistant to widely-used antibiotics, that strain of bacteria will thrive and, suddenly, the antibiotics that everyone's been using just aren't effective. See the issue?

And the only real way to prevent against that is to just not use antibiotics at all -- but I think we'd all agree that that would leave you much more vulnerable. :P

 

[Mid]

I just feel like what we put in our bodies has a major effect on how we react to things such as diseases, mental illnesses and even our "inner spirit" or whatever you wish to call it. There was recently a story about a woman who helped her son start to overcome his autism simple by finding the right diet (I am not saying I believe changing your diet cures you from everything, I just thought her view point was interesting). He went from a normal baby to a mute child that doesn't like affection to a kid who openly hugs his mother, learning chores and even speaks some words/sentences.

There have also been incidents of truck drivers being busted for walking into their trucks/fridges and stepping on meat in their street boots. Meat that is not covered with plastic at that. Recently there's been some stuff about cilantro sending people to the hospitals because workers are taking shits in the fields and wiping their asses out there which while I laugh, I secretly cried inside because I love cilantro. Of course they will probably be hit with some fines and then sent off back to work only to repeat the same nonsense again. There have also been outbreaks for salmonella in chicken, beef recently which resulted in massive recalls. I think Tysons' chicken nuggets had a similar issue and was also recalled so...

It becomes a question of how can this truly be regulated to were our food is safe other then dealing with our food sources ourselves because most of us do not live in a place were we can hunt or farm as others do. Just because someone says they're taking care of it, does not mean...they are taking care of it. They'll smile in your face and spit in your coffee while you're not looking. I've seen the grossness that happens in McDonald's and I no longer eat from them as a result o.of

Our quality of life has expanded as a result of many things like we are the main predator, rare is it that we have an animal trying to eat us lol. There are medicines to help with illnesses, we are more aware of proper hygiene (although I've seen many people walk out the bathroom without washing their hands...and touch the door knobs), better protection against weather, abundance of food/clothing sources...ELECTRICITY! Lol there's just so many things that have improved for us, yes.

 

[Kagayours]

I just feel like what we put in our bodies has a major effect on how we react to things such as diseases, mental illnesses and even our "inner spirit" or whatever you wish to call it. There was recently a story about a woman who helped her son start to overcome his autism simple by finding the right diet (I am not saying I believe changing your diet cures you from everything, I just thought her view point was interesting). He went from a normal baby to a mute child that doesn't like affection to a kid who openly hugs his mother, learning chores and even speaks some words/sentences.

There have also been incidents of truck drivers being busted for walking into their trucks/fridges and stepping on meat in their street boots. Meat that is not covered with plastic at that. Recently there's been some stuff about cilantro sending people to the hospitals because workers are taking shits in the fields and wiping their asses out there which while I laugh, I secretly cried inside because I love cilantro. Of course they will probably be hit with some fines and then sent off back to work only to repeat the same nonsense again. There have also been outbreaks for salmonella in chicken, beef recently which resulted in massive recalls. I think Tysons' chicken nuggets had a similar issue and was also recalled so...

It becomes a question of how can this truly be regulated to were our food is safe other then dealing with our food sources ourselves because most of us do not live in a place were we can hunt or farm as others do. Just because someone says they're taking care of it, does not mean...they are taking care of it. They'll smile in your face and spit in your coffee while you're not looking. I've seen the grossness that happens in McDonald's and I no longer eat from them as a result o.of

Our quality of life has expanded as a result of many things like we are the main predator, rare is it that we have an animal trying to eat us lol. There are medicines to help with illnesses, we are more aware of proper hygiene (although I've seen many people walk out the bathroom without washing their hands...and touch the door knobs), better protection against weather, abundance of food/clothing sources...ELECTRICITY! Lol there's just so many things that have improved for us, yes.

Well yes, of course it makes sense to be concerned about where one's food comes from.

The problem is that, for many people, said concern often seems to remain fixated on irrational things such as "but it's not natural!!" when there's no real drawback and often potentially many benefits to its non-natural-ness.

 

[Dervish]

Way I figure it, if I survive crappy food, my body becomes a Titan of bacteria and virus resistance. I am also severely limited in what I can eat due to Crohns disease. If I find something I can routinely eat that doesn't make me feel like my insides are tearing apart or spend the night crapping sadness, I'm sticking with it, even if it has unsavoury origins. It's that or don't eat at all, and currently I am living off of half a bowl of rice as the entirety of what I have eaten in the past two days.

 

[Shadon Xarian]

It's not necessarily the killing of animals that bugs most people. It's the suffering that we do to them that CAN be avoided and doesn't have to be that way, but we do anyway because we can. Most people wouldn't have a problem with meat eating if the animals had just a bit of respect. But they don't, they are shoved into small cages, force fed painfully, genetically altered to become so fat that the simple act of standing up is quite the painful challenge. And that's not counting the intentional torture like using using a forklift to slowly crush a cow to death or intentionally missing slitting the necks so it's a painful and bloody death instead of a quick one.

Humans love to say they're above nature, so why when whenever we are the bad guys, we always go "Oh, it's just a part of nature" While in every other case, we say we're above it? Seems a bit hypocritical don't ya think?



With plants though, I haven't digged much into it, but it almost seems more like the tree its self is the main alive part, while the apple is simply something it grows and is eatable to others. So imagine if hair was super healthy and eatable and stuff. And then for food, people pluked out hair to eat. I imagine it's something similar to that. Yeah the fruit its self has those feel parts (I think) But I imagine it acts like a cut off arm, you don't feel a thing even know your arm may be rotting weeks/months later. Why? Because the apple its self isn't the source, the tree is.

I've come to the realization that we need to survive for this world to live

I don't know how you came to that realization o.o We are the only species in the entire world that can go 100% extinct, and the world will actually become a MUCH better and healthier place.

so it's not like they were suddenly stripped from some happy woodland critter life.

Being born into suffery doesn't make it anymore right DX Take slaves from back in the day for example. They were bred to become slaves. But that doesn't make it was right now does it? Even so, sometimes it's better not to be born at all than to be born in misery. Me personally, I'd rather not be born into misery than to be born at all. And depending on your view of the after life, you either don't get to exist in the first place (In the grand scheme of things, hardly matter as you'll cease to exist again once you die) or with the spirit world, your spirit will just go to another vessel who is being born, and will have a better life.



And then about where the chickens or whatever will go, well no where. Some are too fat to even move properly, others can't possibly survive. Which at that point, it's better to die than to suffer more. (Similar to soldiers who are burning alive. They commit suicide to end the pain, not sit there burning to death to "Enjoy" life's beautiful final moments.



I forgot about lab grown meats. I still don't fully understand how it works (More specifically the making it part) but I don't really need to, fact is it's gonna be a thing in the future. And if it's as pure as it seems to be, then it'll most likely replace the factory farms. (Or factory farms will start using that instead of actual animals)

 

[Dervish]

@Pharaoh Shadon , while it's not a bad thing to compare an apple to something like hair or nails, there is a noticeable difference, as the fruit is kept alive by the tree and is more or less the tree's sex organ being held on by an umbilical chord. Hair and nails aren't made of cells, much makes them unique as far as our bodies go. Now, harvesting an apple doesn't "hurt" or damage a tree, simply because it evolved that way. Once again, like cutting an umbilical chord or my crab example from earlier.

As for comparing cows to slaves, which it's effectively immoral to do to a self-aware, intelligent being like a human doesn't quite apply to something like a cow or chicken. They simply have no concept of something like slavery, and if they live free range, they live more or less identically as their wild ancestors, the arochs. Bison are another example; you won't find an appreciative difference in how they live in ranch land compared to say Yellowstone Park. Freedom simply isn't a concept they grasp, even if they are cooped up in slaughter houses. Then, it's fucking horrible and inhumane and they do suffer, but they don't likely think of anything else than getting out of being uncomfortable. It's not like dolphins or orcas in aquariums that have at least the equivalent intelligence of a human child and ability to speak a form of language and problem solve. They understand it's not natural to be stuck in a cage, and that's why they have behavioural problems compared to say bears, which are honestly happy to have a steady supply of food and something to play with.

Hell, think of a pet dog. They pretty much live entirely in a low security prison situation with three boring nutritional meals a day, only go outside when their masters permit it, and their only time outside of home/ jail is when master takes them places- on a leash. The dog doesn't know or care it has no freedom; if it's needs are met, it is a happy, endlessly loving animal who probably wouldn't take freedom if you offered it. It has everything it needs from you. Like a cow, it needs socialization and can form intense friendship like bonds, but as long as their needs are met, they literally don't want anything else.

We bred them that way.

 

[Kagayours]

As for comparing cows to slaves, which it's effectively immoral to do to a self-aware, intelligent being like a human doesn't quite apply to something like a cow or chicken. They simply have no concept of something like slavery, and if they live free range, they live more or less identically as their wild ancestors, the arochs. Bison are another example; you won't find an appreciative difference in how they live in ranch land compared to say Yellowstone Park. Freedom simply isn't a concept they grasp, even if they are cooped up in slaughter houses. Then, it's fucking horrible and inhumane and they do suffer, but they don't likely think of anything else than getting out of being uncomfortable. It's not like dolphins or orcas in aquariums that have at least the equivalent intelligence of a human child and ability to speak a form of language and problem solve. They understand it's not natural to be stuck in a cage, and that's why they have behavioural problems compared to say bears, which are honestly happy to have a steady supply of food and something to play with.

Mmmm that's probably true for cows and chickens, but I thought pigs were pretty intelligent -- more intelligent than dogs, anyway. I heard something about factory farm pigs getting "depressed" because of what they're put through. While I can't say for sure that it's really comparable to depression in humans, I wouldn't be surprised if there are clear signs of psychological suffering in such animals, especially the more intelligent ones.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[unanun]

The problem with factory farming and animals is that while they are bred for the sole purpose of growing meat very quickly, we have also not really succeeded (as far as I can tell...) in breeding fear, pain, and other bad emotions out of them.

So while yes, they have been (very crudely) bred for our consumption, from their birth to death they suffer a miserable existence.

The happy medium is probably the cow from Arthur Dent's adventures that wants to be eaten.

 

[Alan]

The only struggle I have is deciding which meat will end up next to the mashed potatoes. ;D

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

The other's already gave a ton of detail as to why the act of eating meat is one we should keep going.

However, the suffering before death is a different story.
I am completely against causing pain to an animal before death.
And this isn't for any logical reason, this is out of pure morality.

The closest 'logical' argument I can make is "What kind of society are we allowing/permitting where we allow and encourage animal suffering? What does that say about human's respect for life?".
But even that isn't really logical, it's filled with appeals to emotion, fear mongering and we also have other issues it would be more true for atm, such as slave labour for cheap clothes, the fact things like ISIS exist etc.

So if you want to go complete cold fact and Spock about this, eating meat is perfectly healthy and valid.
And there is no reason, logically, to care about the suffering done in the name of it.
It's done in the wild, animals don't care about the suffering they cause to each other, so why should humans care?

Only from a moral perspective, and our ability to be Sympathetic and caring individuals can we come to a conclusion that animal's shouldn't suffer before being killed (living conditions is a different story, cause that can effect the health of the animal, and therefore the food. But even then it's health you're looking at, not happiness).

So where am I going with this?

Keep eating meat like we always have, there's both logical and moral costs to stopping it.
But measures should to be taken to get rid of the suffering these animals suffer in order for us to have said meat.

Would you replace farm grown meat with lab grown meat should it become available?

Hell yea.

I mean you know what this means right?
Bacon...
Infinite, Bacon!

Hell, think of a pet dog. They pretty much live entirely in a low security prison situation with three boring nutritional meals a day, only go outside when their masters permit it,

This one (at least for me) is really just an issue of opposable thumbs (and at this point, safety).

I'd be more than glad to give our current dog Rocky the ability to come and go as he wishes, but with a lack of thumbs the only way is a doggy door.
I don't own the house, so I can't install it, and that also gives creatures like racoon's a way inside without a chip feature (which once again, I don't own the house so I can't install it).

Then there's safety concerns.
In Rocky's case, blind and deaf basically, and wildlife like coyotes have been more active lately, especially at night which is when he usually wants out. So even if we did have a doggy door feature, we'd almost be guaranteeing him being eaten by a predator at some point if we didn't follow him outside which we might miss if he can leave the house by himself.

and their only time outside of home/ jail is when master takes them places- on a leash.

Not 100% of the time.

Our Old Dog Sydney we had when I was a little kid was actually a Dog that lived on the streets for a time.
So she was very much prone to simply wandering the neighbourhood on her own.
She'd be let out in the front yard everyday, wander around at her own free will, occasionally stopping by the house.

And no she wasn't feral or vicious. She never wishes harmed on anyone.
Hell we had her when I was first diagnosed with Autism and as a result I'd do thing like yank on her ears, making her irritated enough most dogs would be snapping back.
She'd simply start to wimper to my Mom as a way of saying "He's doing it again, help!".

Now, you can say just letting her out all day like that was reckless all you want.
I might even agree with you (but I was hardly the age to be making that choice at the time any ways).
I'm just highlighting some families give their dogs a ton of freedom to explore and wander.

 

[Shiri]

A capon factory used to be just down the street from where I live, so interesting perspectives all around. I can certainly see how anyone would feel bad for them. The process is not pretty, but its the culmination of their existence. I have a harder time eating the chickens that come from family owned farms. 'Alas, poor Betsy, I knew her well.'

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Mammoths, saber tooth tigers.. Nothing else needs to be said.

He meant we're the only species whose extinction would actually benefit the rest of the planet. :P

(Well technically, benefit all the current life forms. The planet doesn't really give a shit, it's life that's adapting to it not the other way around).

 

[Shadon Xarian]

@Pharaoh Shadon , while it's not a bad thing to compare an apple to something like hair or nails, there is a noticeable difference, as the fruit is kept alive by the tree and is more or less the tree's sex organ being held on by an umbilical chord. Hair and nails aren't made of cells, much makes them unique as far as our bodies go. Now, harvesting an apple doesn't "hurt" or damage a tree, simply because it evolved that way. Once again, like cutting an umbilical chord or my crab example from earlier.

I don't know too much about how that particular thing worked. If an apple isn't taken out. The comparison was more of how I kinda think it happens, not that is it how it happens.

Now, harvesting an apple doesn't "hurt" or damage a tree, simply because it evolved that way. Once again, like cutting an umbilical chord or my crab example from earlier.

That is what I was getting at. It doesn't hurt, there is no pain, and even so, the tree its self specifically makes them for that purpose so it's full consent. Even if the pluking did hurt, I can't imagine it's worse than having a hair pluked out from someone. And since the apple is cut off from the tree, I don't think there's anything to send the "pain" too, similar to if your arm was removed, you no longer feel the arm.

As for comparing cows to slaves, which it's effectively immoral to do to a self-aware, intelligent being like a human doesn't quite apply to something like a cow or chicken.

Why not? Both are alive. And I don't get how you say "self aware" like it's exclusive to humans. Even if that was correct, how does that justify all that torment? You don't need to be self aware to feel pain/torment, even if you don't understand where or why, the feels are still there.

They simply have no concept of something like slavery

Neither do babies or even children until taught. Even so, it doesn't matter if you have a concept of slavery. And I am pretty sure that there have been slaves who don't know the word slave, just know that if they don't do something, they'll get hurt or killed. You don't need a concept of anything to be in a situation. Example would be gravity. You don't need a concept of gravity for it to effect you. Just like how you don't need a concept of slavery to be enslaved.

Freedom simply isn't a concept they grasp, even if they are cooped up in slaughter houses. Then, it's fucking horrible and inhumane and they do suffer, but they don't likely think of anything else than getting out of being uncomfortable.

None of that matters (If you are right) And have you SEEN some of that torment? Only someone with 0% true empathy can sit there and be like "Eh, it's only a bit uncomfortable" Go look up a cow (Or any animal really) being tortured, and THEN tell me it's just uncomfort. You don't need to grasp freedom for the desire to not feel pain. Even people out there who are basically enslaved know they won't have freedom, and won't aim for it, but will aim for less pain.

and their only time outside of home/ jail is when master takes them places- on a leash. The dog doesn't know or care it has no freedom; if it's needs are met, it is a happy, endlessly loving animal who probably wouldn't take freedom if you offered it.

What kind of neglecting people do you know? o.o I've never seen a dog owner even come close to thinking that way about their dog. Even so, most dog owners I know more or less treat their dog like a toddler would be treated. In doors mostly, only allowed outside/walk to a park with a parent watching. Play games with the parent. So I can say what you're saying about a toddler, and it still apply.

endlessly loving animal who probably wouldn't take freedom if you offered it.

Is that why dogs/cats/other animals try to escape terrible house holds? Because they don't grasp freedom and don't understand terrible situations?

they literally don't want anything else.

Quite the claim from someone who can't communicate with them. Is it that they don't want anything else, or that they can't have anything else? Or perhaps, they are just happy with what they have and have no desire for more?
Kinda like tribes from back in the day, they COULD have had more, much more. But they were pleased with what they had. They had a certain respect for their surroundings, and didn't want to negatively effect things around them any more than they felt they had to. Animals aren't materialistic like we are. And not being materialistic doesn't equal not wanting freedom or whatever. If it did, then there are many humans out there who by that logic, don't want any sort of freedom as they apparently wouldn't understand it.



Regardless, the animals there DO feel a tremendous amount of pain from these places, pain that doesn't even HAVE to be that bad, but is done anyway through greed/just cause. The human species went YEARS eating meats, but not making the animals suffer too much. It's interesting how a time who saw animals as mindless savages took better care of their food than we who know for a fact there is more, but choose to remain ignorant on it to... I guess feel better about how we treat them.

 

[Hellis]

So. I read chicken as children, the context was suddenly veeery dire.

 

[Darog]

Cows are now slaves?

HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!

 

[Brovo]

Why not? Both are alive.

So is grass, and we mow the shit out of it... And so are trees, and we cut them down to make things like houses... And so are deer, which we hunt and murder by the thousands to keep their population under control so they don't mass devastate the environment... And so are insects, which we regularly crush and murder by the billions every year, because they try to eat the plants before we can eat them...

... Buuuut okay. I'll bite.

None of that matters (If you are right) And have you SEEN some of that torment? Only someone with 0% true empathy can sit there and be like "Eh, it's only a bit uncomfortable" Go look up a cow (Or any animal really) being tortured, and THEN tell me it's just uncomfort. You don't need to grasp freedom for the desire to not feel pain. Even people out there who are basically enslaved know they won't have freedom, and won't aim for it, but will aim for less pain.

Alright. Now, let's think about this. Let's just say that, I'm, maybe, someone with no empathy. And let's say that the majority of people, don't really care about cows. Or chickens. Or other farm animals. Now, if they were an intelligent species, capable of self-awareness, capable of forming communities and societies, capable of learning and passing knowledge down through generations, capable of developing a culture, you could probably lead a slave revolt and free them. That's what happens when a sufficient number of slaves suffer for a sufficient amount of time: The clarion call of freedom cannot be denied, and they rebel and free themselves. They explain why they deserve freedom, they share their artistic and storytelling talents, they produce and create things, and altogether build a society.

A cow shits in a stall and eats grass.

Until I see a group of cattle standing up for their own right to survive, I will not consider them comparable or equal to human beings. Until I see cattle drawing pictures and creating stories, and forming societies, I will not consider them comparable to human beings. See, I'd be disgusted if we ate, say, apes, because they actually do form cultures. Cows, um...

... They shit and eat the grass. That's what they do. In the thousands of years that we have raised cows, we haven't seen them do anything other than shit and eat the grass. Apparently they can get emotionally attached to things, which is something, but still not comparable to human beings. I mean... If you want to argue not torturing cows in pens, there's other arguments that can be made other than comparing them to people. Like, the fact that they have emotions, and it's probably not a morally responsible thing to take animals who distinctly can feel, and stick them in conditions so terrible we wouldn't even want to reserve them for slaves.

Raise them out on a farm n' what not.

Though, as I've said in my first post on this topic, they've been long since bred to service our needs. They need us to survive. We have to kill some of them for population control anyway. We may as well eat them, and not just let the meat rot away and go to waste. If we don't eat them, unscrupulous people will still torture them to get milk and eggs and cheese and so on. If we don't eat any of those products either, the price of other groceries will go up, and the cows and chickens that those same unscrupulous people own, they'll just mass slaughter and not give a shit about anymore. The only reason cows and chickens survive is because they're profitable. If they weren't, you'd see the population take a sharp nose dive by about 98% over the next ten years or so. The last 2% would be the few people who give a shit trying to keep them alive, which would be yet another instance of humans interfering in mother nature's "strong survive" paradigm.

So, yeah. tl;dr: Cows are not people. Saying "oh but you can't prove they don't have X" is not an argument of anything. Russell's Teapot explains why that argument is ignorant at best, fallacious at worst.

 

[Shadon Xarian]

@Brovo
How pathetic that your beginning excuse is "We kill billions of insects, we kill thousands of deer, we destroy and destroy, so it's okay" NO! It's not okay. That's like saying Hitler killed millions of Jews, so it's okay for him to kill thousands of Christians.


2. We have already seen and proved animals pass down information to the next generation. Don't pretend like it's not a thing and even if it wasn't, being stupid is no excuse to be tortured in such a way.

Until I see a group of cattle standing up for their own right to survive, I will not consider them comparable or equal to human beings.

Well then it would appear that north koreans are not humans. It seems that those enslaved by the extremist, later to be executed are not humans. They aren't standing up for their right to survive. So by your logic, they aren't human.

Let me guess "It doesn't apply to them"

We have to kill some of them for population control anyway.

the only species in dire need of population control are humans. And if you're not backing human population control, then don't pretend like you care about population control.

The only reason cows and chickens survive is because they're profitable. If they weren't, you'd see the population take a sharp nose dive by about 98% over the next ten years or so.

Not being born in the first place and/or being killed right away is far better then how they are being treated in the now. You seemed to have missed the part where I said that most people aren't against them dying, or being killed for food. People are against how they are treated. If they were treated better, then this would hardly be an issue. In fact, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

explains why that argument is ignorant at best,

The only thing ignorant here is your lack of knowledge about animals. I'm not saying "You can't prove X" I'm saying you are wrong, and it's been proven numerous times that they feel pain, have thoughts, think, have emotion, etc etc.


Anybody who excuses and stands by such torment and misery are evil, heartless, and depending on reason, selfish. Take offense? Then you're exactly who i'm talking about and you know it. There is no debate with that. You can feel free to make yourself feel better about it, but that won't change anything.

 

[Brovo]

How pathetic that your beginning excuse is "We kill billions of insects, we kill thousands of deer, we destroy and destroy, so it's okay" NO! It's not okay. That's like saying Hitler killed millions of Jews, so it's okay for him to kill thousands of Christians.

You... You realize, we need to kill things to live, right? Like if we stopped killing the deer, they would overrun the environment, right? You realize that the very act of eating things, kills things, thousands and thousands of things, right? And that if we didn't kill some insects, they would eat all the crops and everyone would starve to death. You know that, right?

... Right?

the only species in dire need of population control are humans. And if you're not backing human population control, then don't pretend like you care about population control.

Holy fucking shit kiddo. I was just trying to explain why cows are not the same as people.

I also don't think I advocated for the dehumanization and killing of North Koreans. I think you need to calm down. The debate prefix was deleted for a reason. Seriously, pretty sure I can feel @Grumpy and his hot, sultry breath coming down on this thread, as he readies his scythe of topic silencing. So, before you accuse me of being Hitler on Steroids again... Could you maybe, at least, focus on one thing this time? How do you propose we would survive as a species if deer overran the environment and locusts were allowed to consume all of our crops?