The struggle of being a meat eater

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • Thank You
Reactions: Dervish
If you only eat veggies because you think you're sparing some animals suffering by doing so, you're exercising a form of delusion. Pretending that one form of mass slaughter is acceptable to another because animals are more human-like. When the reality is far more cruel and cold.
To be fair though, not eating meat does save more lives overall, when you consider the fact that the animals you're eating also had to be fed their whole lives -- and were fed a substantial amount of plant life.

Which is why the choice to go vegan or vegetarian makes a lot more sense from an energy and resource-saving perspective than a moral one. I mean, think of how much a single cow must've eaten before it was slaughtered (I'm pretty sure most farm animals are fed some form of corn or something). Think of how much water and other resources must've gone into growing all that corn. Think of how many resources could've been saved if so much corn didn't have to be grown just to be fed to a bunch of cows. Or, better yet, think of all the meals that people could've had if that corn was grown for them. After all, which is more: the amount of meat you'd get from those cows, or the amount of corn those cows have eaten their whole lives?

I mean, I'm no vegetarian/vegan, but it's an interesting point that I'm surprised no one's brought up yet. And encouraging people to eat less meat because of the resource-saving benefits makes a lot more sense than trying to tell people that eating meat as nature intended is morally wrong.

Oh, and this is also the reason why a lot of people say that the farming and consumption of insects should become more common in the Western world. After all, insects reproduce and reach maturity a lot faster (and in greater numbers) than cows, pigs, etc, and they require far fewer resources to raise. But nooooo people are too hung up on the idea that eating bugs is gross for some reason... >>
 
@Kaga-kun It all depends where the cow (or bison, or other roaming bovine like animal we eat) is being raised. Around here, at least, I have never seen farmers feed cows anything than the fields they live on. Usually free range animals are pretty self-sufficient.

But you are right, it does take a lot more land and resources to raise livestock than pretty much every crop, save for things like asshole almonds which use an absurd amounts of water for a single nut.

Here's a question for everyone; let's say they start producing lab grown meat for public consumption, and let's say it's more or less identical to animal harvested meat nutrition, texture, and taste wise. Also for this discussion, there's no adverse effects to your health or anything like that.

Would you replace farm grown meat with lab grown meat should it become available?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gwazi Magnum
@Kaga-kun It all depends where the cow (or bison, or other roaming bovine like animal we eat) is being raised. Around here, at least, I have never seen farmers feed cows anything than the fields they live on. Usually free range animals are pretty self-sufficient.
Well, free range animals are kind of different. I was more referring to the animals that are kept in tiny cages their whole lives, which I'm pretty sure are fed corn slop from a trough or something.

Here's a question for everyone; let's say they start producing lab grown meat for public consumption, and let's say it's more or less identical to animal harvested meat nutrition, texture, and taste wise. Also for this discussion, there's no adverse effects to your health or anything like that.

Would you replace farm grown meat with lab grown meat should it become available?
Absolutely. When there are no drawbacks compared to real meat, not even as far as taste is concerned? Then it's everything there is to like about meat, except completely guilt-free (and presumably less resource-draining, too!). :D

Although this hypothetical did not bring cost into the equation. I suppose it would also depend on just how affordable lab-grown meat is compared to regular meat, if we're being realistic. If the price is the same then hell yeah, sign me the fuck up. If it's more costly than regular meat then I'd probably get it when I can, but, you know, no promises.
 
meat_o_1311481.jpg
 
  • Love
Reactions: Mid
Oh, and this is also the reason why a lot of people say that the farming and consumption of insects should become more common in the Western world. After all, insects reproduce and reach maturity a lot faster (and in greater numbers) than cows, pigs, etc, and they require far fewer resources to raise. But nooooo people are too hung up on the idea that eating bugs is gross for some reason... >>
Oh, certainly. I've eaten cooked spider's legs and ducks and rabbit before. Heck, I would love it if every few years we cycled what kind of meat we ate based on what pest species was rampaging out of control again. However, if humanity were entirely logical like this, we'd get over our fear of GMO's too. But, hey, humanity ain't logical, so, if we're speaking strictly about cows and food, not eating them just results in their slaughter anyway. So I guess they're more like a commodity crop, of which cattle is hardly alone in that regard.

I thought cows produced a ton of milk though. Like, that was what really made them have any sort of value to more ancient peoples, and only excess cattle was slaughtered for meat. I dunno, I guess I'll have to go refresh myself on history again.
Would you replace farm grown meat with lab grown meat should it become available?
Fuck yeah. Why not? Keep investing in it until we can replicate vegetables and fruits in the lab too. Keep going until we have matter converters. At which point, growing food becomes an irrelevant hobby that people can participate in if they want, because we can just fucking poof food into existence. Nobody has to starve anymore. Just have your own Star Trek food converter for the price of your average microwave.

Please, let the future come!

kBAIkO6.jpg
 
We're not any better than lions. We gotta have meat in our diets too.
This statement is wrong. You can live on soylent/be a vegetarian forever. You chose to eat meat.

I'm shocked that people here think a plant automatically releasing signalling chemicals is the same thing as feeling, or even screaming in, pain.

@Cosmos your choice does indeed matter. Vegetarianism is a strong subculture in asia and the middle east. The fact that fancy restaurants and even mainstream restaurants like Chipotle offer vegetarian options means that people are asking for V options.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mid
This statement is wrong. You can live on soylent/be a vegetarian forever. You chose to eat meat.

I'm shocked that people here think a plant automatically releasing signalling chemicals is the same thing as feeling, or even screaming in, pain.
The point is, plants do everything in their power to prevent themselves from being consumed and/or destroyed. They do react to their own destruction. It's not the same as pain and suffering in a human or animal sense, but it's still a living thing that attempts to prevent its own destruction.

Which, ultimately, makes sense to me. Chilies evolved to be as spicy as they are so as to try and discourage animals from eating them. Fruits evolved sweet seed-carriers so that animals like us would eat and spread them, but not the rest of the tree. Plants are some of the longest living things on the land, it makes sense that at least some of them, in their massive biodiversity, evolved mechanisms to register when they are being destroyed. A rudimentary sense of pain. Not the kind of pain that an animal feels, or which a human feels, but something which allows it to detect that it's in danger. Which is ultimately what pain's purpose is: An evolved sense of knowing that something is not working properly.

It's sufficiently alien that I won't pretend to know how a plant "feels" or if it "feels." So I apologize for the crude pain analogy in earlier posts. Though I'm not going to pretend that ceasing the consumption of meat will somehow stop en masse animal abuse. So long as there's profit to be made, some unscrupulous humans will do whatever it takes to maximize earnings and most of the population will turn a blind eye to it. It's just our nature, it seems.
 
@Brovo @Kaga-kun I'm on board with the idea of a Beaker Meat diet as well, I'm surprised nobody's spoken up at least concern about it yet. After all, it's "unnatural", and you see how people react to GMOs. Even if it fit the perfect criteria I outlined, I can't imagine there wouldn't be significant resistance against adopting it.

Actually, a hugely overlooked source of meat protein that would provide incredible yields and is only held back by cultural disgust is insects. You can literally pump out thousands of rather substantial bugs for very little resources or space in very short order. We all already eat insects, whether or not we realize it. Anything with artificial red colouring is made up of a particular species of beetle that's ground up into a powder and put in damn near everything that isn't a fruit or a meat.

I would actually be curious to try cockroach steak.
 
I'm sort of... bias I think. I live near a lot of ranchland. Siblings in FFA/Agriculture, worked in an animal shelter for a while...


But in general. Spend a couple of extra bucks and buy local if you can (heck sometimes it's cheaper) or buy grass fed if possible. Local is always the best way to go (again if possible cause you might be far from any farming communities that serve their local area).

I think it's pretty healthy to think about where your food comes from and, at risk of sounding like a stereotype, it's respectful to that animal. I find it much more disturbing when people don't know/care where their food comes from. Or worse, when they're disturbed but continue to take part in munching on that animal. Comes across as apathy, out of site out of mind.

In general, in Western society we should eat less meat. We produce more than actually gets eaten. Whenever a cut of meat goes unsold it's a waste of not only that meat but the resources that went into making it.


@Kaga-kun It all depends where the cow (or bison, or other roaming bovine like animal we eat) is being raised. Around here, at least, I have never seen farmers feed cows anything than the fields they live on. Usually free range animals are pretty self-sufficient.
Depends on the location and the animal. Cows and horses for instance can be nearly self sufficient about 6 months out of the year if the grazing pasture is good and has a strong yield regularly. but there's always going to be supplemental feed.
In an enclosed pasture large grazing animals can just eat everything down to numbs. And all it would take would be some very harsh rains or a long winter to stunt the pasture growth.
So you can bring in feed (for grass fed animals this would be some kind of grass, or grain) or some people will load all the cows up and take them to some other pasture on public land. All depends on the ranch and the rancher and where it is!

Here's a question for everyone; let's say they start producing lab grown meat for public consumption, and let's say it's more or less identical to animal harvested meat nutrition, texture, and taste wise. Also for this discussion, there's no adverse effects to your health or anything like that.

Would you replace farm grown meat with lab grown meat should it become available?
When they perfect the lab grown meat I will totally be putting it in my face. :D
And hopefully soon we'll be adding insect protein to our diets. Tasty, tasty bugs.


In general I'm more concerned with the quality of life the creature had and the quality of death. No slow bleeding, no hanging, etc. Putting funding into researching removing male laying chickens while they're just eggs or before to avoid culling after hatching. etc.

Heck, maybe we'll even remove animal deaths from veggie farming eventually. Vertical farms for the future maybe?

Please, let the future come!
kBAIkO6.jpg
And It's cool and all to be vegetarian. I eat very little meat, personally.

But from a chemical response and that's all fear and pain is (that's why you can be born without those responses), plants are alive too.
And I find eating animals raised for thousands of years to be eaten, less horrible that the necessary mass euthanasia that would have to happen if we just closed all the ranchers down right now.

There are already a ton of homeless livestock. People get em and then dump em when their cute pet gets huge. They are not capable of surviving without human care. They would all have to be killed. Because I gotta tell you, no one is adopting these animals.
For every great person out there who buys a couple of piglets knowing that when they're 600+ lbs they'll still be cared for there's a bunch more who got them cause 'so cute, micro pigs r real' and then drop them off at sometimes really unprepared or underfunded animal shelters.

I'm not saying 'zomg vegetarians are such crazies' cause no. Eat veggies. Totally. No one should have anyone's lifestyle forced upon them if they believe a thing. Eat that carrot like no one's business.
 
@Brovo @Kaga-kun I'm on board with the idea of a Beaker Meat diet as well, I'm surprised nobody's spoken up at least concern about it yet. After all, it's "unnatural", and you see how people react to GMOs. Even if it fit the perfect criteria I outlined, I can't imagine there wouldn't be significant resistance against adopting it.
Well, yeah, from the general populace? I wouldn't be surprised. But from the Iwaku crowd? I think most of us aren't exactly part of the "it's unnatural!!" bunch when it comes to things along those lines.
 
I'm sort of... bias I think. I live near a lot of ranchland. Siblings in FFA/Agriculture, worked in an animal shelter for a while...


But in general. Spend a couple of extra bucks and buy local if you can (heck sometimes it's cheaper) or buy grass fed if possible. Local is always the best way to go (again if possible cause you might be far from any farming communities that serve their local area).

I think it's pretty healthy to think about where your food comes from and, at risk of sounding like a stereotype, it's respectful to that animal. I find it much more disturbing when people don't know/care where their food comes from. Or worse, when they're disturbed but continue to take part in munching on that animal. Comes across as apathy, out of site out of mind.

In general, in Western society we should eat less meat. We produce more than actually gets eaten. Whenever a cut of meat goes unsold it's a waste of not only that meat but the resources that went into making it.



Depends on the location and the animal. Cows and horses for instance can be nearly self sufficient about 6 months out of the year if the grazing pasture is good and has a strong yield regularly. but there's always going to be supplemental feed.
In an enclosed pasture large grazing animals can just eat everything down to numbs. And all it would take would be some very harsh rains or a long winter to stunt the pasture growth.
So you can bring in feed (for grass fed animals this would be some kind of grass, or grain) or some people will load all the cows up and take them to some other pasture on public land. All depends on the ranch and the rancher and where it is!


When they perfect the lab grown meat I will totally be putting it in my face. :D
And hopefully soon we'll be adding insect protein to our diets. Tasty, tasty bugs.


In general I'm more concerned with the quality of life the creature had and the quality of death. No slow bleeding, no hanging, etc. Putting funding into researching removing male laying chickens while they're just eggs or before to avoid culling after hatching. etc.

Heck, maybe we'll even remove animal deaths from veggie farming eventually. Vertical farms for the future maybe?


And It's cool and all to be vegetarian. I eat very little meat, personally.

But from a chemical response and that's all fear and pain is (that's why you can be born without those responses), plants are alive too.
And I find eating animals raised for thousands of years to be eaten, less horrible that the necessary mass euthanasia that would have to happen if we just closed all the ranchers down right now.

There are already a ton of homeless livestock. People get em and then dump em when their cute pet gets huge. They are not capable of surviving without human care. They would all have to be killed. Because I gotta tell you, no one is adopting these animals.
For every great person out there who buys a couple of piglets knowing that when they're 600+ lbs they'll still be cared for there's a bunch more who got them cause 'so cute, micro pigs r real' and then drop them off at sometimes really unprepared or underfunded animal shelters.

I'm not saying 'zomg vegetarians are such crazies' cause no. Eat veggies. Totally. No one should have anyone's lifestyle forced upon them if they believe a thing. Eat that carrot like no one's business.

This is a super fantastic and informative post that really was the whole deal. Thanks for that!

Well, yeah, from the general populace? I wouldn't be surprised. But from the Iwaku crowd? I think most of us aren't exactly part of the "it's unnatural!!" bunch when it comes to things along those lines.

Iwaku does pretty much lean self of center, progressive-minded to a rather considerable degree.

And we're all fucking weird, so that helps.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Gwazi Magnum
@Dervish

'Welcome!
I'd be hesitant to say it covers even a little bit of the whole deal lol but I'm glad I could share some stuff that was helpful lol
 
None of those change my perspective, neither the grass in my front lawn nor my kitchen table has a beating heart and working brain to think whether or not its being used for my advantage. I'm going to be real and not be a hippie who defends cows and grass because it looks bad to me, I've come to the realization that we need to survive for this world to live so we kill and our victims also kill so why should i feel bad for killing something that also kills?

We are the most superior being on earth as we currently know it and for us to survive we need supplies and we also need to balance the world. Whoever thinks differently like saving cows or plant life because they breath the same air that we do are morons, I didn't want to be ugly and use such language but you called me a keyboard warrior so yea.
.......................................................

0rFAT6T.gif


Funny man.

I am actually a person who eats meat, I am saying vegetables have pain and fear too cause my stance is that "Humans should be free to eat meat or vegetables cause they are alike", I am actually against pure vegans or vegetarians.

.................................................................

Wrong target, dude, misfire, practice your aim better. Tag one of the other people here who is better fitting for your uncouth behavior.

I didn't want to be ugly and use such language but you called me a keyboard warrior so yea
So yea, exactly, you are proving my point, you are a keyboard warrior. Want a commendation? Here I give you a cookie.

--

My advice, stop, you're just making yourself look like a fool.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hana
None of those change my perspective, neither the grass in my front lawn nor my kitchen table has a beating heart and working brain to think whether or not its being used for my advantage. I'm going to be real and not be a hippie who defends cows and grass because it looks bad to me, I've come to the realization that we need to survive for this world to live so we kill and our victims also kill so why should i feel bad for killing something that also kills?

We are the most superior being on earth as we currently know it and for us to survive we need supplies and we also need to balance the world. Whoever thinks differently like saving cows or plant life because they breath the same air that we do are morons, I didn't want to be ugly and use such language but you called me a keyboard warrior so yea.
.......................................................

0rFAT6T.gif


Funny man.

I am actually a person who eats meat, I am saying vegetables have pain and fear too cause my stance is that "Humans should be free to eat meat or vegetables cause they are alike", I am actually against pure vegans or vegetarians.

.................................................................

Wrong target, dude, misfire, practice your aim better. Tag one of the other people here who is better fitting for your uncouth behavior.


So yea, exactly, you are proving my point, you are a keyboard warrior. Want a commendation? Here I give you a cookie.

--

My advice, stop, you're just making yourself look like a fool.
tumblr_ni34k7s5WQ1qcc287o5_500.jpg


Getting a bit hostile in here, methinks...
 
@Kaga-kun That's actually my last reply to them. Period. No moar, not falling for da bait, nuh uh!
 
Simple, we find aliens, and kill them for their precious extra-planetary flesh.

Not like it has the same moral dilemma as eating plants or animals either.

It's what they get for being filthy xenos.
 
Actually, birds do not have receptors for capsaicin, the spicy molecule. In other words, chilies are meant to be eaten - just not by humans.

The tagline of 'pain' and 'screaming' is a terrible journalistic tactic used by scientists to sell their research. I've used this argument before and I'll use it again: the physiological response to injury, such as a clotting and release of other signaling chemicals, is separate from the neurological response, which boils down to an attempt to avoid pain.

Mobile, thinking creatures benefit from pain because it forces them to escape their current, dangerous situation. Why would a plant, which is rooted in the ground, have any use for an inescapable pain sensation? That's not even approaching the argument from an observational viewpoint, where we can observe that plants have no central nervous system.
 
Actually, birds do not have receptors for capsaicin, the spicy molecule. In other words, chilies are meant to be eaten - just not by humans.

The tagline of 'pain' and 'screaming' is a terrible journalistic tactic used by scientists to sell their research. I've used this argument before and I'll use it again: the physiological response to injury, such as a clotting and release of other signaling chemicals, is separate from the neurological response, which boils down to an attempt to avoid pain.

Mobile, thinking creatures benefit from pain because it forces them to escape their current, dangerous situation. Why would a plant, which is rooted in the ground, have any use for an inescapable pain sensation? That's not even approaching the argument from an observational viewpoint, where we can observe that plants have no central nervous system.

Beat me to it with the bird thing. Have a like.

Birds and pepper bearing plants evolved a mutually beneficial coexistence. Birds can eat the peppers without blubbering about it like your tough guy man baby friend who always had to order suicide wings and spend an hour on the shitter every time you go out because people are dumb, but birds don't taste the hot and spicey bits like we do. In exchange, when the bird takes a crap later, a nicely coated and protected seed falls from the heavens and can grow somewhere far away from the parent plant.

More or less, by eating hot peppers, you're effectively eating bird food.
 
Yeah. My bad then, I learned something new though.

Thanks for the correction, @unanun
 
  • Thank You
Reactions: unanun
Status
Not open for further replies.