Gender Quotas

[Brovo]

Because a lot of the time it is?

According to who? By what standard? Using what metrics? In what way does it cause detrimental harm?

All I'm doing is asking questions. That question being "how have you derived this knowledge?" I've not implied you of doing anything, all I did was cite an example from my own point of view. If anything, I implied myself of holding racist sentiments, that I had to fight off through logic and reason. Ergo why I referred to myself, and my view, constantly. I was just demonstrating how using personal experiences to judge entire groups of people is flawed.

But, hey, if you want to claim I'm attacking your views, then feel free to drop the topic. I won't pursue you over it, and I still respect you, regardless of what you think I've said.

 

[Astaroth]

The thing is that never once have I said that those personal experiences apply to entire groups of people.

I also am not claiming you're attacking me. I am trying to let you know- not for the first time- that your style of discourse tends to come off as extremely hostile. I'm not taking it personally, but it makes it difficult to feel like the discourse has any point. It's also a bit frustrating when it seems that you repeatedly misinterpret what I'm trying to say or apply viewpoints that aren't mine to my contributions.

Also, it didn't sound like you were accusing yourself of racism. It sounded more like you were patting yourself on the back for not being racist despite personal experiences. (Note: I am not saying this is what you are actually doing. I am saying this is how it sounds.)

Anywho, this isn't the place to hash out a conversation about productive debate, so I'll let this lie where it is. We're cool, dude, but this is going waaaay off the rails.

 

[redblood]

Remember kids, this thread is about gender quotas. Dun let the train derail. :)

 

[SacredWarrior]

I view quotas as a double-edged sword. While on one hand it's very good for diversity and prevents sexism and racism in the workplace (which is still a thing mind you), on the other hand, I don't think anyone should be hired for a job unless they're perfectly qualified for it. Just because discrimination in the workplace is illegal doesn't mean people don't do it. Just look at how shitty Hollywood is.

Women who are in charge tend to get a lot of flack from their male subordinates. Some hate taking orders from women, some think she screwed her way to the top, some have sick fantasies about her, etc. Because of this, women are often discouraged from taking male-oriented jobs. If the woman happens to be a minority (like me), she's gonna have to deal with racism too. Hell I'm taking up Software Application in college and I already know for a fact that there will probably be NO women in that field who look like me or women in general. So I'm preparing myself for the fuckery ahead.

So overall quotas can be a good thing but they can be a bad thing too. It depends on how someone uses said quota.

 

[Hellis]

I view quotas as a double-edged sword. While on one hand it's very good for diversity and prevents sexism and racism in the workplace (which is still a thing mind you), on the other hand, I don't think anyone should be hired for a job unless they're perfectly qualified for it. Just because discrimination in the workplace is illegal doesn't mean people don't do it. Just look at how shitty Hollywood is.

Women who are in charge tend to get a lot of flack from their male subordinates. Some hate taking orders from women, some think she screwed her way to the top, some have sick fantasies about her, etc. Because of this, women are often discouraged from taking male-oriented jobs. If the woman happens to be a minority (like me), she's gonna have to deal with racism too. Hell I'm taking up Software Application in college and I already know for a fact that there will probably be NO women in that field who look like me or women in general. So I'm preparing myself for the fuckery ahead.

So overall quotas can be a good thing but they can be a bad thing too. It depends on how someone uses said quota.

"Boy club mentality" can get pretty nasty at times. Software and other technical fields have the amplified problem of attracting people who aren't to well equipped when it comes social interaction. So its good to be prepared for a dose of awkward, sometimes downright ugly behavior. Change doesn't come overnight, you are gonna see some people struggling with accepting something so seemingly minor as a woman doing the same job as them. But just as many who will roll with it without a problem. But the scales are evening out because of people like you, so don't let the few asshats get to you.

 

[Brovo]

Hell I'm taking up Software Application in college and I already know for a fact that there will probably be NO women in that field who look like me or women in general. So I'm preparing myself for the fuckery ahead.

Might be surprised but numbers generally agree with you, so I agree with you. The tech industry has a hiring problem. Mind, it would be better to execute the anti-discrimination laws already in place over a quota, for one particular reason.

If your employer hates women, and is forced to hire women, and hires you, you will have a miserable job experience in which you will never get promoted, and won't be able to get a reference. Hell, your employer might even blame you for the quota, at that.

Still, give it more time. It's naturally healing itself by virtue of those who have been hired changing the minds of those around them. Encouraging diversity is enough here, most people who work in tech aren't rampaging, racist, sexist, monster people. You'll make it, but you might need to work a little harder than everyone else around you. On the flip side, when you do get a job, you'll be able to pride yourself on the fact that it was entirely on your own merits and you'll be part of the force of change wrecking the status quo by merely existing.

 

[Wolk]

I view quotas as a double-edged sword. While on one hand it's very good for diversity and prevents sexism and racism in the workplace (which is still a thing mind you), on the other hand, I don't think anyone should be hired for a job unless they're perfectly qualified for it. Just because discrimination in the workplace is illegal doesn't mean people don't do it. Just look at how shitty Hollywood is.

Women who are in charge tend to get a lot of flack from their male subordinates. Some hate taking orders from women, some think she screwed her way to the top, some have sick fantasies about her, etc. Because of this, women are often discouraged from taking male-oriented jobs. If the woman happens to be a minority (like me), she's gonna have to deal with racism too. Hell I'm taking up Software Application in college and I already know for a fact that there will probably be NO women in that field who look like me or women in general. So I'm preparing myself for the fuckery ahead.

So overall quotas can be a good thing but they can be a bad thing too. It depends on how someone uses said quota.

"Boy club mentality" can get pretty nasty at times. Software and other technical fields have the amplified problem of attracting people who aren't to well equipped when it comes social interaction. So its good to be prepared for a dose of awkward, sometimes downright ugly behavior. Change doesn't come overnight, you are gonna see some people struggling with accepting something so seemingly minor as a woman doing the same job as them. But just as many who will roll with it without a problem. But the scales are evening out because of people like you, so don't let the few asshats get to you.

Personally I haven't experienced any of that. As I said, I am in IT (in software development), there's only one woman in our group and I can't remember anything sexist being said. Occasionally it gets mentioned that she is the only women in our group, but she does that herself - it's not like it bothers anyone. As I've also already mentioned, she even was voted into a representative role. The concept you described seems alien in my environment, but my environment isn't global and it may of course look entirely different somewhere else.

I am not entirely sure that quotas prevent sexism or racism, though. For example, let's assume there's a IT company called Examplon with their CEO John Doe, who assumes, for whatever reason, that women are generally very bad with computers, and that women who aren't are witches or something. Men in disguise. I don't know. Anyway, Mr. Doe now has to staff at least 30% women. Would the women be treated fairly? John Doe is probably reluctant to employ them and the company's staff may be sour about the people who had to be fired, perhaps even prejudiced (along the lines of "You only got hired because you're a woman!"). On the other hand, it could happen that Examplon's employees are open minded and discover that women are not actually witches if they can computers - but I'm not optimistic enough to believe that.

Ultimately, I don't think one can force people to think of every gender and race equally, just like some people believe that other people are inferior to them. The only thing one can do is make sure that people do not get disadvantaged because of it. Gender quotas don't fulfil that role in my opinion, and have many other problems.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Past Off Topic Commentary

The reason that it is called "feminism" stems from the fact that the majority of gender issues in society stem from times where women were considered inferior.

For first and second wave maybe, and back then I would have definitely signed up as a Feminist.
Third wave though? It's a different battle now, and as a result different tactics are required.

I see how people still think it's appropriate to hit on the girl behind the counter at the store. Or, how the girl behind the counter thinks it's part of her job to flirt with the customer.

There's nothing wrong with flirting.
Hell I'd take it the opposite way, make so it's acceptable for women to hit on men too (please have this happen).

Though obviously, human decency would still apply. So if they say stop, then stop.

Then again, I was someone who was recently told that I apparently flirt with everyone via trolling them... :/

Possible Unpopular Opinion here.

The whole "Everyone's against me" mentality described earlier is probably far more common than just in the 3rd wave feminists crowd. Hell I even get times where I just sit down and think that everyone is against me, and end up inventing rather bizarre reasons as to how that works.

The differences between the Third-Wavers and others being though.

1. They don't have the fact side of the brain turn on and go "Then explain ______ and ______".
2. They choose to voice it publicly and accuse people, rather than living it as inner thoughts/struggles.

"Boy club mentality" can get pretty nasty at times. Software and other technical fields have the amplified problem of attracting people who aren't to well equipped when it comes social interaction.

I'd also argue that some of that probably comes from Teen years growing up.
I mean, we've all been there at some extent.

You're in school and casted into being the dweed or the loser.
No one wants to interact with you, and certainly no one want's to hit on you.
In the case of boys, this could mean most girls avoid them (not just romantically but socially) because to do so would drag down their own popularity.

This could lead to not only a huge lack of practice, but a stigma to be attached that they're something else, something higher to obtain. Which when translated into the working world can mean people who might honestly mean well, but just present it horribly.

------------------------------

But yea Gender Quota's.

I do sincerely believe they were implemented with the intent to do good, but as many people have highlighted it grounds for nothing but legalized discrimination that's simply under the guise of equality.

 

[Sidhe]

Past Off Topic Commentary

For first and second wave maybe, and back then I would have definitely signed up as a Feminist.
Third wave though? It's a different battle now, and as a result different tactics are required.

There's nothing wrong with flirting.
Hell I'd take it the opposite way, make so it's acceptable for women to hit on men too (please have this happen).

Though obviously, human decency would still apply. So if they say stop, then stop.

Then again, I was someone who was recently told that I apparently flirt with everyone via trolling them... :/

Possible Unpopular Opinion here.

The whole "Everyone's against me" mentality described earlier is probably far more common than just in the 3rd wave feminists crowd. Hell I even get times where I just sit down and think that everyone is against me, and end up inventing rather bizarre reasons as to how that works.

The differences between the Third-Wavers and others being though.

1. They don't have the fact side of the brain turn on and go "Then explain ______ and ______".
2. They choose to voice it publicly and accuse people, rather than living it as inner thoughts/struggles.

I'd also argue that some of that probably comes from Teen years growing up.
I mean, we've all been there at some extent.

You're in school and casted into being the dweed or the loser.
No one wants to interact with you, and certainly no one want's to hit on you.
In the case of boys, this could mean most girls avoid them (not just romantically but socially) because to do so would drag down their own popularity.

This could lead to not only a huge lack of practice, but a stigma to be attached that they're something else, something higher to obtain. Which when translated into the working world can mean people who might honestly mean well, but just present it horribly.

------------------------------

(pls forgive my off topicness)

As a girl who works in customer service and gets flirted with on a daily basis, it's incredibly inappropriate to flirt with or hit on someone when they're working. You're putting them in an uncomfortable position where they can't turn you away or react in a manner they normally would. They have to appease you because it's in their job description. I have men in their sixties hitting on me and asking me out to dinner and all I can do is smile and say 'not tonight,' because if I were to be firm with them and tell them to stop, there's a good chance they'd get upset and/or I would be reprimanded for being unfriendly. You're basically cornering someone into accepting your advances, which sucks.

There's nothing wrong flirting with someone in other aspects of life, but please, I'm begging you, don't hit on someone when they are working. :(

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

(pls forgive my off topicness)

As a girl who works in customer service and gets flirted with on a daily basis, it's incredibly inappropriate to flirt with or hit on someone when they're working. You're putting them in an uncomfortable position where they can't turn you away or react in a manner they normally would. They have to appease you because it's in their job description. I have men in their sixties hitting on me and asking me out to dinner and all I can do is smile and say 'not tonight,' because if I were to be firm with them and tell them to stop, there's a good chance they'd get upset and/or I would be reprimanded for being unfriendly. You're basically cornering someone into accepting your advances, which sucks.

There's nothing wrong flirting with someone in other aspects of life, but please, I'm begging you, don't hit on someone when they are working. :(

Like I said, basic human decency.
If someone turns around and goes "How dare you treat a customer this way!" then that's a clear violation of being a decent human being. :/

Though it should also be noted that post I made was talking about an ideal world.
I'm more than aware that in Real Life it's not that simple, so stuff like what you described does happen, and seriously needs to stop happening. >.<

 

[Hellis]

Oh. Speaking of customer service centric jobs. I tried my hand and bartendering when I was 20ish. still in university, you could get some simple bartender jobs if you helped out a the student pub.

Jesus fucking christ never again.

 

[Astaroth]

@Fauna

Yeah. It happens to the girls at my work all the time. Sure, sometimes it's innocent and friendly or even someone attractive, but mostly it's the creepy kind. And does it happen to my male coworkers? That's a resounding no.

Although, in fairness, we did have one guy who worked with us that was basically sexually harassed by my female coworkers. It pissed me off. They would make comments about his ass and when he screwed something up they'd talk about whatever he did, but then sigh and say "but he's so pretty". They also found a picture of him shirtless on Facebook and passed it around the office leering at it. And he was very visibly uncomfortable with all of it, and that's a problem. I mean, if he were a girl and guys at work were doing that to "her", what would people think?

Also Gwazi, good luck having a manager in retail/food service EVER side with you over a customer.

Some jobs though, it's different. When I worked at a haunted house there was an incident with a female employee getting her ass groped, and that dude and his friends got thrown the fuck out IMMEDIATELY with no refund. On the other hand, they specifically told all the girls to give out the work number when they got asked for their phone numbers, because that's what happened to them at least three or four times a night. And it's not like these girls were dressed up sexy or pretty (though that shouldn't matter), and they were trying to SCARE the customers, so bullshit on it being genuine interest. And it's just sad that they HAD to tell the girls to do this at all.

I'd say that it balanced out by the people trying to punch the guys, but the girls actually got punched too, so that was a pretty even risk factor.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

It should be noted when I say flirt/hit-on I mean precisely that.
Not Groping, not copping a feel, not using exposing photos and sharing it around etc.

Both of those incidents do sound truly awful. :/

Though honestly I'd expect a decent Manager who care's about their employee's to said with their employee.
I mean obviously being on the job they still need to be civil and assertive to the customer.
But I'd still expect them to take a stand against them...

Maybe I've just been exposed to too many decent human beings as bosses. :/

 

[Hellis]

Oh man. There is so much issues at haunted houses. I worked a summer at the swedens biggest enterteinment park. We had some brazilian actors/circus people who worked at our haunted house. There were so many times those guys got punched or kicked. Thing is, it was my brothers job to haul their ass out of the park. He is a 110 kilos big, mma trained hardass. He got real popular with the Brazilians (My brother also speaks portoguese, which basicly made him one of their crew xD).

But yeah. Don't flirt with people who are working in retail. The only times I ever done that, is what when I hanged out at a local gameshop (they had roleplaying stuff and game room for people to run campaigns in), and the cashier kept showing obvious intrest. I am like socially handicapped when it come to reading womens interest in me usually, but even I picked up on it. And even then, I was super hesitant until she basically asked if I wanted to grab a bite with her during her lunch.

 

[☆Luna☆]

Being unable to decline an advance because of your job sounds pretty stupid. There is absolutely no reason why there can't be some sort of cop out answer like, "Sorry, it is against company policy for me to address this sort of thing, but if you have any questions or need help with [insert product/service related stuff] then I would be happy to help you."

On the other hand, they specifically told all the girls to give out the work number when they got asked for their phone numbers, because that's what happened to them at least three or four times a night.

This kind of cop out response is just generally what every company should have to avoid confrontation with customers. It is in neither the company's nor the employee's best interest to not have a policy which is not in the best interest of all parties.

 

[Space Cowboy]

Yeah, don't flirt with retail workers. It's annoying as fuck.

EDIT: Don't flirt with anyone working, or your coworkers either. Really, use proper social judgment.

 

[Astaroth]

So I know a lot of people here have been crying for statistics and empirical evidence rather than just personal anecdotes and experiences. Although really, statistics are just anecdotes and personal experiences filtered into numbers and percentages for everyone to gawk at. Fortunately, a fuckton of research has been done into these statistics and are easily found via some quick Googling of things like "sexual discrimination statistics".

So if you don't want opinions, I'll present some facts.


On Women (and PoC) in STEM Fields

The American government's researched it:

STEM Factsheet 2013
Disparities in STEM Employment by Sex, Race, and Hispanic Origin

Harvard's talked about it:

The 5 Biases Pushing Women Out of STEM
Issues Affecting Women in STEM

And some other universities too:

Women in Science - Journalism Rhodes University

BBC's been there:

"Brightest girls" among Physics A-level dropouts

And the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences:

Elite male faculty in the life sciences employ fewer women

But you can also get firsthand viewpoints from female scientists:

Girls With Toys


On Women and Jobs in General

Again, Harvard's on point:

Why Women Don't Apply for Jobs Unless They're 100% Qualified


About Women Wanting Manual/Hard/"Gross" Labor Jobs

The news speaks for itself:

Women Lead Sanitation Strike at Massive Education Complex in China

But the New York Times wanted to know more:

2 Female Sanitation Workers Earning High Marks

And the Daily News:

Women sewer workers sue DEP over unfair treatment

And the Chicago Tribune:

City tunnel worker sues over sex bias

And you can find that these women are WORKING and COMPETING to get these jobs:

Pair become Britain's first female SEWAGE apprentices


On Sexual Harassment in the Workplace

A whole GRID of stats straight from the US government:

Sexual Harassment Charges

The Department of Defense has reports on it:

Annual Report on Sexual Harassment and Violence at the Military Service Academies

The National Sexual Violence Resource Center has quite a bit of unbiased statistics:

Sexual Violence and the Workplace: General Information and Statistics

As does Catalyst:

Sex Discrimination and Sexual Harassment

SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS have looked into what happens within their fields:

Survey of Academic Field Experiences (SAFE): Trainees Report Harassment and Assault

And TIME has specifically looked into how

66% of Female Restaurant Workers Report Being Sexually Harassed by Managers (AND this article talks about harassment from CUSTOMERS too)


On Rationalizing These Incidents Away Using Textbook Terms, Statistics, and Hypotheticals

Santa Clara University talks about believing in a Just World:

The Just World Theory


And I lied, 'cause I'm going to shove some opinions all up in here too.

At the end of the day, it's up to you to DECIDE how you want to interpret statistics. Do those numbers MEAN anything? Does knowing exactly how many sexual assaults were reported in 2012 tell you whether those reports were resolved on the side of justice, whether they were false allegations, whether they were overreactions or outright lies or whether they were true and justified? Are you going to dismiss those statistics as irrelevant to your worldview or use them to confirm it or shape it?

Are you even going to read all of these resources? Would it matter if you did?

Confirmation Bias: A Ubiquitous Phenomenon in Many Guises

It's all up to you. You are the only one who decides where you stand on an issue. You are the one who decides what sources are reputable, which facts to consider and which to dismiss. You are the one who decides what is a sane argument and what is extremist.

And no one can tell you what the "right" answer is.

It's all you.

But other people have seen things that you have not, and telling them that their personal experiences mean jack ain't going to win you any arguments or convince anybody to take your POV into their consideration.

Are millions of women talking about sexual discrimination, harassment and assault significant, or not? If you don't believe in systemic sexism, how do you justify a belief in a systemic reaction to perceived sexism? Why is one a more valid theory than the opposite?

If you call for proof that women are victims of sexism, why do you not bear the same onus of proof? Isn't attempting to prove that "all cases are just assholes or misinterpretation" just as impossible as proving that "sexism is everywhere"? What do such unreasonable expectations really achieve?

Isn't it more effective to absorb people's personal experiences or viewpoints, and then say, "okay, so what should we do about it?"

If gender quotas are not the answer to the fact that so many women are complaining of perceived or substantiated discouragement, discrimination, and harassment in their chosen fields, what CAN be done to resolve the issue?

THAT'S the topic I want to hear more about.

 

[Wolk]

If gender quotas are not the answer to the fact that so many women are complaining of perceived or substantiated discouragement, discrimination, and harassment in their chosen fields, what CAN be done to resolve the issue?
THAT'S the topic I want to hear more about.

Perhaps this is the adequate point in time to start a thread about that. Not to be rude or call names, but it's been pretty off-topic for about 3 pages .-.

 

[Space Cowboy]

So I know a lot of people here have been crying for statistics and empirical evidence rather than just personal anecdotes and experiences. Although really, statistics are just anecdotes and personal experiences filtered into numbers and percentages for everyone to gawk at. Fortunately, a fuckton of research has been done into these statistics and are easily found via some quick Googling of things like "sexual discrimination statistics".

So if you don't want opinions, I'll present some facts.


On Women (and PoC) in STEM Fields

The American government's researched it:

STEM Factsheet 2013
Disparities in STEM Employment by Sex, Race, and Hispanic Origin

Harvard's talked about it:

The 5 Biases Pushing Women Out of STEM
Issues Affecting Women in STEM

And some other universities too:

Women in Science - Journalism Rhodes University

BBC's been there:

"Brightest girls" among Physics A-level dropouts

And the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences:

Elite male faculty in the life sciences employ fewer women

But you can also get firsthand viewpoints from female scientists:

Girls With Toys


On Women and Jobs in General

Again, Harvard's on point:

Why Women Don't Apply for Jobs Unless They're 100% Qualified


About Women Wanting Manual/Hard/"Gross" Labor Jobs

The news speaks for itself:

Women Lead Sanitation Strike at Massive Education Complex in China

But the New York Times wanted to know more:

2 Female Sanitation Workers Earning High Marks

And the Daily News:

Women sewer workers sue DEP over unfair treatment

And the Chicago Tribune:

City tunnel worker sues over sex bias

And you can find that these women are WORKING and COMPETING to get these jobs:

Pair become Britain's first female SEWAGE apprentices


On Sexual Harassment in the Workplace

A whole GRID of stats straight from the US government:

Sexual Harassment Charges

The Department of Defense has reports on it:

Annual Report on Sexual Harassment and Violence at the Military Service Academies

The National Sexual Violence Resource Center has quite a bit of unbiased statistics:

Sexual Violence and the Workplace: General Information and Statistics

As does Catalyst:

Sex Discrimination and Sexual Harassment

SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS have looked into what happens within their fields:

Survey of Academic Field Experiences (SAFE): Trainees Report Harassment and Assault

And TIME has specifically looked into how

66% of Female Restaurant Workers Report Being Sexually Harassed by Managers (AND this article talks about harassment from CUSTOMERS too)


On Rationalizing These Incidents Away Using Textbook Terms, Statistics, and Hypotheticals

Santa Clara University talks about believing in a Just World:

The Just World Theory


And I lied, 'cause I'm going to shove some opinions all up in here too.

At the end of the day, it's up to you to DECIDE how you want to interpret statistics. Do those numbers MEAN anything? Does knowing exactly how many sexual assaults were reported in 2012 tell you whether those reports were resolved on the side of justice, whether they were false allegations, whether they were overreactions or outright lies or whether they were true and justified? Are you going to dismiss those statistics as irrelevant to your worldview or use them to confirm it or shape it?

Are you even going to read all of these resources? Would it matter if you did?

Confirmation Bias: A Ubiquitous Phenomenon in Many Guises

It's all up to you. You are the only one who decides where you stand on an issue. You are the one who decides what sources are reputable, which facts to consider and which to dismiss. You are the one who decides what is a sane argument and what is extremist.

And no one can tell you what the "right" answer is.

It's all you.

But other people have seen things that you have not, and telling them that their personal experiences mean jack ain't going to win you any arguments or convince anybody to take your POV into their consideration.

Are millions of women talking about sexual discrimination, harassment and assault significant, or not? If you don't believe in systemic sexism, how do you justify a belief in a systemic reaction to perceived sexism? Why is one a more valid theory than the opposite?

If you call for proof that women are victims of sexism, why do you not bear the same onus of proof? Isn't attempting to prove that "all cases are just assholes or misinterpretation" just as impossible as proving that "sexism is everywhere"? What do such unreasonable expectations really achieve?

Isn't it more effective to absorb people's personal experiences or viewpoints, and then say, "okay, so what should we do about it?"

If gender quotas are not the answer to the fact that so many women are complaining of perceived or substantiated discouragement, discrimination, and harassment in their chosen fields, what CAN be done to resolve the issue?

THAT'S the topic I want to hear more about.

 

[Brovo]

I have men in their sixties hitting on me and asking me out to dinner and all I can do is smile and say 'not tonight,' because if I were to be firm with them and tell them to stop, there's a good chance they'd get upset and/or I would be reprimanded for being unfriendly. You're basically cornering someone into accepting your advances, which sucks.

Strange. I can see how this is unpleasant. At my work place, when one of my female coworkers was flirted with, she was allowed to ask the person in question to stop. They did not stop. My manager came out and told them to fuck off.

... I like my manager.

Also, the only objective is to get money from the customer. Once that's done, you don't have to give a shit once they leave. If they keep coming back, and refuse to stop, you can file legal recourse over that, and if your manager fires you, you can sue them for that. You can't fire someone for trying to protect their own privacy/well-being. At least, it's wrong in Canada to do so, anyway.