This is what's wrong with the world today.....

Discussion in 'THREAD ARCHIVES' started by Nydanna, Mar 15, 2016.

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  1. Homeowner Shoots, Kills Teen Burglary Suspect

    Now, this isn't about race, and it's not about 'Stand your Ground' laws, this is about one direct quote in the entire article.

    "You have to look at it from every child’s point of view that was raised in the hood,” said Harris. “You have to understand… how he gonna get his money to have clothes to go to school? You have to look at it from his point-of-view."

    But do we? I know lots of people who grew up in rough neighborhoods, and none of them would have thought that because they grew up in the 'hood' it was perfectly reasonable for them to break into someone's home. Growing up poor, in the shitty part of town is not an excuse to steal from people. It's not a reason to go out and start breaking into someone's house. It's a reason to DO BETTER FOR YOURSELF!

    Yes, I understand that it is difficult. I know how hard it is to get money to go to college, and how hard it can be not to fall into the wrong crowd when that seems to be all you're surrounded by. But this?

    There are plenty of ways to get money without doing anything illegal. There are tons of ways to get decent, name brand clothes without forking out a small fortune. Hell, there's thrift stores online now, and while the prices aren't all that low, they're definitely better for what you'd pay at full price for the same thing on another site.

    What I want to know is; Is this what the world is coming to? Is it now acceptable to excuse a criminal just because they come from poverty?

    I will put one thing on here: THIS IS NOT A RACE DISCUSSION! I'm not talking about race! My questions are about what was said, not the color of the shooter or the one who got shot.

    As a parent, I also have to ask this. WTF kind of parent isn't buying their kids clothes for school?!?!?
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  2. Things are not that easy however. When a system is stacked against you, it has a tendency to break you down. When you live in poor neigbourhoods where crime is more common, your points of refrence becomes skewed. When you go your entire life seeing others have things you want, it is a constant temptation. When you are in a position where you are bombarded with media and advertisment telling you NEED these things for status etc etc, its being pushed onto you. Desperation festers and is enforced and reenforced.

    Jobs do not come by easy, minimum wage is a joke and lack of proper education forces people without income to remain without proper income. It is a "push down the poor" system at work. Everything costs money, to get a job you have to invest money you may not have into clothes for anything remotely "respectable". Add to that the stigma of coming from certein areas and being generalized. Add to that again, the disdain people show people in low wage jobs, the way people will deflect any attempt to have a discussion regarding the underlying sociological and political and economical realities and conditions that are generally tied to things such as poor youths and crime. Becouse it is much, much easier to say "They are criminals". Becouse, it isn't false, but it isn't the entire picture.

    What is wrong with the world today, in this case, is a broken system and several generations having to dredge themself out of shitty situation. So yes, we do have to understand that this is the sympton, not the disease. You cannot say "its a reason to do better" without considering the fact that for many, they do not SEE any other way, another path. Becouse society doesn't show them any.

    Obviusly, I do not condone anyone stealing. And nor do I fault a man from exercising his right to defend himself.

    This is a tragedy among many, that likely is gonna be repeated again and again as long as the system is failing people.

    So no. The problem isn't that someone is trying to see the broad picture and envoke basic empathy and have people approach the situation without the narrow, shortsighted "It's just a criminal".
    #2 Hellis, Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
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  3. Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely blaming the kid for what he did. Yes, he was responsible for his actions, but when he has family saying 'Oh, well you grew up in the ghetto, it's okay for you to go get what you need from others' he didn't stand much of a chance.

    What's really troubling me is the family. They are at least 90% responsible for what happened to him. They had a responsibility to teach right from wrong, and to show him that there are alternatives to stealing. Minimum wage might not be ideal for a working adult, but for a teenager still in school? Hell, my family isn't in the best position financially, but even my fourteen year old knows that when she's old enough, she can take some of the burden off of us by getting a job to buy the things she wants for herself.

    Believe me, I know how hard it is. I lived in the hood myself. Before we moved to Florida, I lived in Baltimore City. I had prostitutes and drug dealers walking past my door day and night. I know that kids are growing up where they see people robbing others to get what they want. It's not easy. But what troubles me is that this family is basically saying that it should have been expected. Is this how people think now? Am I that old and times have changed so much that it's now perfectly acceptable to justify someone committing a crime because of where they grew up and the financial struggles they face?

    Maybe it's the parent in me, but it just seems like an out for the family, and honestly it makes them look like scum. If I was in the situation, yes, I would have been upset that my child was shot, but I also would have understood that 1.) It was my fault for not teaching them better, and 2.) It was there fault for committing the crime.
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  4. With this I agree, you fail your kid if you don't teach him right and wrong. But generations of struggling financial issues and living in suboptimal, crime-heavy areas will ingrain a pattern that is hard to shake. People pass on what they know, what they had passed onto them.
    I feel we are becoming more cynical with every generation, as we are getting more and more shafted finacially. Again, it builds psychological patterns. Hard to break. People give up, shrug and go "fuck it".
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  5. Yeah, well... It's real easy to preach. It's a whole 'nother ball game to do.

    I guarantee you, that person breaking into someone else's home was committing to an act of last resort. The family is just trying to explain this: He was doing what he needed to survive.

    Also, "do better for yourself." In the ghetto? Most businesses, even minimum wage ones, don't want to hire ghetto kids. They look at them as, and I quote, "problem assets." Doesn't matter that they're earnest: They're ghetto. It's the Mark of Cain for employment opportunities. Even if they hire one, odds are good they'll fire them the moment a "less problematic asset" appears wanting that same position.
    Are they two dollars? Cuz' if not, ghetto kid might be totally fucked here. When you spend every last dime you have on food, and still go hungry some nights, what are you gonna do? Starve to death so you can have a t-shirt? Also, if you don't have nice clothes, nobody's going to hire you, and you're back to square one. So...
    I... Don't think anyone rational is trying to excuse it. They're trying to empathize. Not "it's okay to steal now" so much as it is "it's a tragedy he had to steal and his reasoning wasn't particularly evil." It should be a call to arms to do something more, but alas, nothing will be. The poor rat bastards don't get shit: Everybody's too busy assigning blame to actually do anything.

    I mean, look at the wording: "Look at it from his point of view." Not "he was poor so it's okay to steal", just "look at it from his point of view."

    If you're starving, and no job will hire you because you're ghetto, what are you supposed to do? Some turn to crime. Not because they want to, but because they have to.
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  6. I think this is one of the points where as a parent I have a huge problem. Poor does not have to mean without. My kids have lots of clothes, and most of them are pretty damn expensive, but that's because I sacrifice things to get them. I'll go without something I want if my kids ask me for a nice pair of jeans, or a pair of sneakers, because they need them. If it comes to me getting a coffee at Starbucks a few times a month or my kids getting a new jacket, there's no question about which option is going to win in the end. That's what I don't understand. Those people shouldn't be saying 'He's poor, so he had to rob'. They should be fucking embarrassed that they weren't doing all that they could to prevent it from happening. The fact that he felt he had no other option but to steal is truly sad.

    Which is really the point that I missed completely. Yes, the kid was responsible for his actions, but the fact that he had to resort to them is what's saddest of all.

    Why isn't the family questioning themselves for their own actions, or in this case, inaction? The lack of accountability is disturbing. There are lots of programs in Florida to help families with clothes, furniture, and food for children. No, it might not help the adults that much, but it provides necessities for kids that he obviously wasn't getting. Where is this kids mother and father? Like I said before, if that was my kid I wouldn't be blaming the shooter, I'd be blaming myself.

    But the problem is, this is how parenting works for a majority of people. Being poor doesn't mean that your children have to suffer. No, they might not get $100 pair of shoes, or $50 pairs of jeans, but it doesn't take much to ask for help. Hell, most schools in Florida call and ask if the family needs help. (At least from my experience)

    Kids are kids, and they should be allowed to be kids. At seventeen I was worried about buying my own clothes because my mother kicked me out of the house. Before that though, I never had to wonder if I would have clothes to go to school because my mother made sure that I did. When I had kids, clothes was always a priority (After food, of course). When I'd go shopping for cleaning supplies I'd grab an outfit or two on clearance so my kids would have them the next time that season came around. It's a matter of priorities, and that's what wrong with the whole picture.

    If these people knew that this kid was worried about clothes for school, then why weren't they doing something? Why weren't his parents asking for help, or sitting him down to explain why he couldn't get what he wanted? Suggesting that because they're poor he had to commit a crime isn't fucking logical.

    I guess my take on this is different because I am a parent. I can see through the kid's eyes, and I do understand what it's like to go to school wearing generic stuff while everyone else is walking around with brands that cost more for one piece than your entire outfit combined. I do know what it's like to see something that you really want and know that it's out of the question because your family can't afford it. However, on the other side of that I can see it through a parent's perspective. It's my job to see that my kids get something they want at least every once in a while, even if that means I have to pinch every penny that comes my way to get it for them. It's my job to teach them that if they really want something they should save whatever they can, or try to find a way to make the money without stealing from someone else. Is it easy? No. Life itself isn't easy. But when it comes down to it, as a parent who brought a child into the world, the moment that I gave birth to them they became my responsibility, and it is my job to teach them right from wrong, not to excuse their behavior because I can't afford to get them Nikes.
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  7. ... What? The only time I call myself impoverished (and legitimately mean it) is during periods where I legitimately live without the ability to appropriately sustain decent standards of living. Right now, I am not poor. I am lower middle class, not poor. To be poor is legit to mean that you cannot survive on your own without assistance. That's why being poor is often associated as a disease, or a plague.
    Alright. Can't believe that I'm the person to say this, of like, anyone, ever, but you've obviously lived a life of privilege to not understand the following words: "I cannot buy both food and clothing for myself and my family." Poverty in a ghetto does not mean "I give up starbucks so my kids can have designer shoes." Poverty in a ghetto, literally means, "I can either choose to pay the the mortgage, or feed my kids." Why do you think ghetto neighbourhoods are in such a state of disrepair and trash? You can't possibly believe that if those people had the money, they would seriously live like that, do you?

    Seriously. Just go to a ghetto and start trying to play doctor finance with these people. Most of them are literally in the state where the cost of basic necessities + mortgage + car payments, is greater than their total income.

    So, no offense, I really don't mean to offend. I don't know what your life is like. I don't know what you've gone through. Fact of the matter is, I think you're a great parent from what I've heard. You obviously care about your kids a lot and want to give them the most out of life.

    So imagine if you couldn't afford shit, had to work two jobs, your kid was influenced by capricious individuals outside of your control (because you're working to try and get them what they need), they get killed, and some middle class white chick started telling you that you should be ashamed of yourself for not trying hard enough. Not trying hard enough to... What, exactly? Not die? Pay the bills? Work minimum wage jobs because when you rolled the dice at God's character creation table, he went "lol get fucked you've got -2 to your social status" score?

    You don't know their life. I don't know yours. Stop judging other people and blaming them for circumstances that, for all you know, they were doing everything they could to prevent. Especially where it concerns the death of a child. For all you know? They kept these opinions away from their child because they wanted to try and prevent them from growing up to be like themselves.

    Also, for the record: I was very, very tempted to say "fuck you." Considering that you just implied that being poor means you just can't afford starbucks. You just said this to someone who was homeless for three weeks because his mother left his ass to rot. Pretty sure "giving up starbucks" was far beyond my thoughts at that point. Be wary who you say these things to. I'm emotionally stable: A lot of poor people ain't. :ferret:
    How the fuck do you know this? Do you know them? Are you talking with them? Do you know what they're thinking or feeling in private? Who are you to decide how they're feeling or what they're thinking, exactly? Stop judging other people you don't know. Especially in the light of a tragic loss like this. Pretty sure I wouldn't be rational about losing my child (if I had one), especially if people were harassing me for interviews over it.
    You assume they qualified for any of them with a child of their age range. You assume those programs were sufficiently supplied to assist those people as well as the many others they presumably aid. You assume they didn't have to immediately sell the shit they got to pay off mortgage fees. You also assume these people were even aware such programs existed: When I was poor I had no fucking idea anyone wanted to help me beyond the food bank.
    Working and/or dying, presumably.
    You assume, as you've never had to go through the devastating loss of having your child taken from you by the barrel of a firearm. Maybe you'd do well with it, but a lot of people really wouldn't, and don't. I certainly wouldn't.
    Tell that to the kids in India who make your shoes. Or the kids in China who make your jeans. Or the kids in the middle east who get married off as children. Or the kids in Sudan, who starve to death, or get recruited as child soldiers. Or the kids who grow up in gang neighbourhoods, who suffer loneliness and feelings of worthlessness as their parents work day and night to provide as best as they know how. Kids who later get manipulated into doing dangerous and sometimes horrible things, because the gang becomes the family they never got to have, because their parents were too busy always working.

    Fact of the matter is, life is fuckin' shit for a lot of kids. A lot of kids don't "get to be kids." I was lucky in terms of poverty, my family was always barely able to make ends meat, and then after one event of bankruptcy and rolling the dice, we escaped into the middle class. However, make no mistake: We had to roll the dice and take a chance. If it ended up the other way, I'd still probably be homeless right now, and presumably, you'd be blaming my dad: Wondering why he "didn't do enough."

    Hell, another thing to consider is that this kid may have been wanting clothes for school that the parents not only couldn't afford, but which were more expensive than they thought the kid should have. The kid, growing up poor, in the fucking ghetto, probably has to deal with remarks about his poverty all the time. Now, he gets this thought in his head, "my parents can't do this for me without sacrificing something more, but I really need those clothes, so I'm going to try and get some money for them." Nobody wants to employ his ass, because he's ghetto trash. So he goes and decides "I'll just steal, just this once."

    Bang, dead. Game over.

    Yet, this is all an unsubstantiated hypothesis because, I don't know this kid. I don't know his life. I don't know his parents. I don't know his neighbourhood. I've never been there, I've never met them. I don't know what their life was like. The parents are asking for empathy? I'll give it. Anything more than that? No. Because I don't know anything about this situation beyond one piece of what is likely a much larger and more depressing puzzle.

    A puzzle that really can't be summarized with "because the parents are obviously to blame when their child does something wrong" based on the one piece I have.
    #1: They probably already were doing the maximum they knew how to do.
    #2: They've probably asked for help from others so much, so often, that they started getting rejected by default when they asked. "Don't help those people, they'll just piss it away on something and ask for more." They also have to be aware that all the forms of help available even exist.
    #3: Try explaining to your kid why he can't have something he wants. Now try explaining this over and over and over again every time they ask for something. After a while, the kid is going to rebel against you. That's what kids do. No, it's not rational, but then kids aren't rational. That's why they're kids.

    Also, again, this situation is not logical. Why are you looking for logic in this situation, when you surely know it won't be there? Why is it that when we make more than enough food to feed the entire world, there are still starving people all over the world?

    Life ain't logical. Life just is.

    That includes stupid kids doing stupid things to get stupid things because their parents are in the completely fucked situation of being unable to get them those things.

    I'm sorry, but the only thing I see wrong with the world today are people who judge each other and spend more time playing the blame game rather than actually doing something. Kids grow up poor, get indoctrinated into gangs who act as their adoptive families, and then they do stupid, horrible things in the name of those gangs. Kids get abducted into child soldier armies in the name of warlords in countries most people can't even remember the names of. Kids end up working as young as the age of eight in countries across the ocean, who sew the clothes you buy for your kids. Those very same kids, if they get injured, don't get universal health care: They get fired, and the wounds fester, become diseased, and if they're lucky, the Red Cross will find them in time to amputate the limb in question.

    Life is harsh. Life is cruel. People get killed all the time who shouldn't be. People do stupid things in the name of desperation all the time that they shouldn't be doing. You're right, @Nydanna that those parents should have done everything they could, but who says they didn't? How do you know? How do you know that kid wasn't pushed into stealing by his friends, and how the parents of that kid are trying to come to grips with losing the one thing they had in their lives that made life even worth living anymore? How do you know these things and why are you judging them for it?

    If we spent as much time helping each other as we do berating each other, donating to charity (in man hours or money, whatever floats your boat), if we restructured society to give to people their wants, if we worked toward Utopia, maybe... Just, maybe, we could achieve it.

    All I feel is sadness for the parents for their loss. Beyond that? Nothing. Because there's nothing I could have done, there's nothing society in its current state could have done, and I don't know enough about those parents to judge them for what they may or may not have done.

    So... Yeah. I know I got a little heated and passionate here, but this could have just as easily been me at one point. God knows I definitely thought about stealing shit when I was younger because I hated the world I lived in, that seemed so callous and uncaring about my suffering.


    Also yeah we're still cool just so that's clear Nydanna. I'm disappointed by what you said, not by you. You own a ferret and you love your kids. Couldn't ask for more than that of you, I'm sure your kids will grow up to be great people. :ferret:
    #7 Brovo, Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
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  8. He a gud boy he dindu nuffin'.
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  9. -raises hand- I grew up a poor ghetto kid. o__o There were months we went without hot water in the middle of winter. There were times we were three months behind on the rent and had to go without power just to keep a place to live. We ate ramen noodles and hot dogs almost every day. my parents were in mASSIVE DEBT because they made shitty choices as young adults. Dad's job paid absolute shit. mom's and my brother's medical bills were freaking insane. Neither of them graduated highschool or had any college. There was no money or help for schooling to get better jobs. There were no sacrifices that could be made so the kids could get stuff. The Social Worker system could only help so far - my brother got his meds to live beyond that there is SURPRISING AmOUNT OF RED TAPE TO GET THINGS LIKE WELFARE, SOCIAL SECURITY AND OTHER HELP. If you don't meant ALL of their requirements you are straight up DENIED. Schools told us my dad made "too much money" for us to qualify for free lunches, so we didn't GET lunch. In elementary school we "charged" lunches so often and built up a debt to the point where they finally refused to server us. An elementary school did this. middle school and high school was fine with letting us not eat, period. c__c

    I legit stole things. I stole food so I could eat, and sometimes I stole money. I never went so far as to break in to people's houses or turn to a life of crime. That just wasn't in me. @___@ But I 100% get half the people around me in that ghetto as fuck neighborhood and why they were little hood kids, breaking in to houses, robbing stores, and doing really stupid shit. And once you start getting an arrest record, your chances go down even more. It kills you hireability. Nobody wants you because they're afraid you're going to be a shit worker.

    It NOT easy to get help and climb your ass out of the ghetto, because the system is currently broken. You get punished for being poor. You get punished for not having as many opportunities. You get punished if you're not poor ENOUGH. You get judged and trodden upon. Told you're lazy. Told you're not trying hard enough. Everything is working against you. And it SUCKS.

    my parents are still out in Georgia living in a piece of shit trailer that is literally falling apart, in a neighborhood surrounded by crazyass mother fuckers. o__o Dad is still working a shitty job. mom's toe is falling off and they STILL can't seem to get reliable insurance. I'm pretty sure they're living on a diet of liquor and beans right now. >< And they're being stubborn about letting us help.

    The only reason me and my brother are doing okay now is because of friends and Gibs' family funding us with a shit ton of money and support. It still took us years to get where we are now. And we're still fighting insurance companies over my brother's medication. >:/ We're lucky enough now that we can lean on his family for that support if anything really bad happened. Cause we sure as fuck can't lean on mine.
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  10. And you would be wrong in that assumption. I was using that as an example. It doesn't necessarily apply to Starbucks, but it's the only thing that I could think of that would really be much of a sacrafice.

    My husband was out of work for two years. We both tried our damnedest to find jobs, but this was when the unemployment rate was obscenely high and there were hundreds of people applying for one job at McDonalds. Yes, I have been poor. However, I still went out of my way to make sure that my kids had everything. Yes, we had to go on food stamps to keep food on the table. Yes, I had to go to churches and charities to ask for help paying our electric bill and our rent. Yes, I was walking around with shoes that were falling apart, but never once did my kids go without. My birthday money went to my kids. My Christmas presents, gift cards, anything that I got went to my kids. I'd get $100's in gift cards, and out of that money I might have spent $1 on myself for a candy bar. So yes, I do know what it's like to be poor. Hell, I don't even think poor described what we were during those times. But whatever I had, whatever I could spend I made sure it went to my kids.

    And this is my point. No, it's not easy to skim through everything and make bare minimum payments on every bill so you have enough to put food on the table at the end of the day. I've been stuck making a decision of whether or not to put gas in my car or buy $20 worth of groceries and hope it could get us through to the next unemployment check. And it just so happens that I was in the very same state where this happened receiving that help.

    The main reason that most of these places are in disrepair has little to do with the residents themselves, and more to do with the environment. Florida is not the best place to live when it comes down to it. Flooding, hurricanes, and sink holes make it impossible to actually buy a house there unless you've got a few thousand a month to pay for all the damn insurance that you need to maintain. There were people being charged $7,000 a month for flood insurance. I understand why people are poor down there, and why the neighborhoods are the way they are. You're forking out a small fortune just to keep a roof over your head, and there's not much more you can shell out afterwards.

    As for assistance, they are not stingy with it as they are in some places. It's hard to ask for help. You take a major hit in your pride when you can't even afford a loaf of bread. I've been there and done that. But you do it for your kids. If you have to knock on every single door in the world to ask for help, you do it.

    I'm not judging them as people. To be honest, I think they chose the wrong individuals to interview. They looked a bit too young to really understand the situation. But the truth is, this could have been avoided. That kid resorted to his actions because he did not see any other way. Maybe he was taught better, maybe he wasn't. Maybe he thought he would try it once might have felt terrible afterwards. I don't know, but I do have to question what kind of environment he grew up in when his relatives are saying that he turned to breaking the law because he was poor. He had to have learned that somewhere. It could have been the media, or it could have been influences inside his house. No one really knows.

    But to say that stealing because someone is poor is a bit disrespectful. There are millions of people who are poor. Don't you think they have things that they want that they can't afford? Yet, the majority of them either find some legal way of getting it, or they simply go through their lives without. It's not right to say that just because someone is poor they're automatically going to turn to crime, and it's not fair for other kids like him. How the world is today, that one little statement is going to have every single person questioning each kid they see on the street, wondering if they're going to catch that same kid later on trying to break into their house, and it's not right.

    People can criticize me as much as they want, but the fact is the parents and family are still responsible, because it is their place to show how to behave.

    I'm not saying this to be disrespectful, but please don't tell me how kids are.

    I have four kids. I do this several times a day. Kids are not stupid. They understand when there's actually a valid reason for you not to say no, and when you're simply saying it just to say it. Kids do not miss a thing either. They hear and see everything, no matter how much a parent might try to hide it. My kids know when I'm stressing about bills and money without me saying it to them. Does that stop them from asking for things? Nope. Does it stop them from whining when they really want something? Not at all. But it does open a door for me to explain to them why they can't have what they want, and what they can do to speed up the process of getting it.

    My son tried to shoplift one time. Once. Do you know what made him not attempt to try again? I explained to him that when he steals from a store not only is he putting the employees' jobs at risk, but he could be preventing someone else from getting a job as well. The store has to make up for what was stolen, and in order to do that they'll cut hours, or stop hiring. Of course not for just one thing, but it all adds up in the end. Kids need to be taught that stuff. They need to be shown that their actions have consequences that do not just effect them. I'm fortunate enough to have some pretty empathetic kids, and they do feel bad when they know they're doing something that could hurt someone else. However, it's sad that I consider that fortunate for me because it's not a normal thing anymore.

    A lot of these kids growing up don't understand that their actions have consequences, and it's not always the parents' fault. Most parents work 2-3 jobs just to maintain a halfway decent lifestyle for their families. However, there has to come a point where they're talking to their kids about life rather than letting them figure it out for themselves. Every kid is smart enough to figure out if they get caught stealing something bad is going to happen to them, and in Florida where there is a 'Stand your Ground' law, you need to tell your kids to watch what they do around other people's property.

    I don't think that I'm wrong on putting the blame on the family, but again, that's my opinion. A child died. A mother lost her son, and it could have been prevented. You can't blame the woman who wanted to protect her home, the law clearly allows her to do that. I do think she was a little quick to draw the gun when the cops were on their way, but there really isn't much in the story that says there wasn't something transpiring that caused her to feel threatened, or maybe she intended to do something to stop him from running and had really bad aim. The fact is though that the kid shouldn't have been there to begin with, and it could have been prevented. The crime didn't happen just because he was poor.
  11. Why does it seem no middle class white person can fathom the realism of poor people not being able to do better for themselves due to a system that's against them? And that poor people do these illegal things such as robbing, selling drugs, etc. just to survive because there are no better options left for them? Seriously, every time this topic is brought up their solution equates to "just get a job". It's embarrassing. Especially when blame is pushed on those doing the crimes instead of people focusing on the why and blaming the fucking system that doesn't give two shits about the people who had to resort to these crimes in the first place! Focusing on that instead of trying to judge families in the worst possible way will surely work towards solving so much more. A lot less theft and a lot less death due to people trying to protect what they own. But fuck being productive in any sort of way, amirite?
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  12. I'll weigh in as some whose never had to deal with the situation of being poor, but has seen the "Parent's do everything they can" thing first-hand.

    In my case it was trying to fund and keep functioning the Autism Therapy I had as a kid.
    Now, my Dad worked (and still does) at a Petro Canada (Now Suncor) Oil Refinery while my Mom was a Manager of 2 different Subway stores.

    So when I was first diagnosed my parents had the luxury to have some economic wiggle room.
    They could afford for my Mom to sell her Subway stores, and immediately invest the money from that and her time into my therapy while my Dad worked to cover the food, bills etc.

    If I we happened to be poor though? That would have been suicide, cause suddenly they'd have just sacrificed some of the essentials of living. It wouldn't matter how hard my Mom worked in the therapy, or how hard my Dad worked in his job. If the number's didn't add up we'd be in big trouble having to sacrifice food, clothes etc. but thankfully it did add up.

    Then something else that applies to both ABA and raising children overall, parents do not have full control or influence. Even as a stay at home Mom you've certainly dealt with situations where a teacher, a shitty neighbour, a bad classmate etc that put some harmful or stupid ideas in your child's head? Imagine if you weren't always around to fix or correct that? And imagine how many more of those influences there'd be if because you were working your kids would need to go to after school programs, or simply be out with friends far later. Suddenly the amount of stuff your kids get from others sky rockets, and the amount you as a parent has the ability to deal with almost vanishes. Unless if you keep your kid under lock and key, never allowed to leave the house (even for school) you cannot avoid other people or situations influencing them. And the ability to be influenced by it becomes even easier the more stress they get from their struggling home life.

    And even going back to my own experience above? Even then there were freak accidents that we couldn't forsee that threatened to ruin all the hard work my parents did . The main one I can recall is when my Dad's work ended up going on strike... Now remember above when I said he was effectively our sole provider now. This could have been suicide when they were also having to play several therapists full-time on top of normal living conditions. How much 'hard work' my parents put into it would mean jack-shit if we suddenly lacked the money to pay for it.

    But, we got some lucky circumstances:
    1. Our lead Therapist refused to quit, saying payment could wait until we hit a point that we recovered.
    2. Eventually a Court Case with the government (long/different story) ended up resulting in some weird deal that had them cover it.
    Lucky right? Now, imagine if that was reverse luck for someone in the ghetto.
    1. More bills come in cause someone get's seriously injured. Or maybe the rent has started to sky rocket.
    2. Complications happen with something like welfare, and suddenly you got no more food from the government.
    ^Suddenly you can start to see how easy it is for someone to fall if luck isn't on their side.
    Where on one side you can get miracles, the other side has demons that can destroy everything.

    Basically what I'm saying is, it is a very nice and comforting thought to simply say "If parents work hard enough it will be fine" and no child will have to suffer. And indeed the amount of effort a parent puts into their child is a huge deal in how their child turns out. But it's not the only element, there are other factors in play. Where it doesn't matter how much you fight for your kids, if everything around you ends up working against you rather than for you, then you WILL be suffering and needing to make sacrifices.

    And for those parents being forced to live such a life, seeing their child suffer and be powerless to fix it? And then to be judged and condemned by society for simply being in a horrible situation? It's a situation I wish no one would ever have to be in. But it's a situation many people will continue to be in until Humanity does a serious turn around to help others.
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  13. It's damn near impossible to get help if you're a nuclear family. It is absolutely retarded how hard they make it for married couples to get help. I had to fib and say that my husband and I were separated in order to get help a lot of times. It technically wasn't a lie since he was working in Maryland while I was in Florida, but we weren't getting divorced. They do not want to give help to married people at all, and when they do, you have to jump through hoops to get it. And if you rent and not own a house? You're seriously fucked. Outside of churches there is only one program that helps you pay your rent. They cover $500, one time. And heaven forbid you have a damn medical condition. My diabetes supplies are over $300 a month, and I had to fight every single month to get them. Forget that if I don't take my insulin every day I run the risk of going into a coma if my sugar is too high. And strips? I went three years without testing my sugar because we couldn't afford them. I had to hope that I gave myself the right amount of insulin to balance what I ate. Thank goodness none of my kids ever got really sick. I probably would have had to sell what organs I do have that are fully functioning to pay for whatever they needed.
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  14. I won't touch on the discussion about poverty and everything surrounding that, but I figure it's worth mentioning if the woman who shot him was up in Canada, she would be charged, likely with murder. Up here, you are allowed to use reasonable force to protect yourself and your property, and that's actually pretty lenient because if you believe yourself to be in danger, you can't be expected to know how much force is required to stop an attacker. That said, of the intruder flees your property, you do not hsve the right to pursue them with the intent to harm because the threat has passed. Having a loaded firearm would be considered premediated because legally, you must keep your ammunion and firearms locked up separately.

    While this is a US state with considerably different laws, there is a strong case against her for pursuing amd killing the intruder from other US judges' verdicts in similar cases.
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  15. Not in Florida. Florida's 'Stand your Ground' law gives her the right to use lethal force on anyone who is attempting harm on herself or her property. If someone comes to your house and threatens to hurt you, you could kill them. Of course you would need evidence that supported the person threatened you, but honestly, in Florida you don't even need that half the time.

    This is the same state where Trayvon Martin was killed for walking through a neighborhood with a hoodie on, and George Zimmerman got away with it using the Stand your Ground law. It didn't matter that Trayvon did get shot in the back trying to run away. Zimmerman felt threatened, and it was considered within his rights to shoot him.
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  16. I grew up in Memphis, TN in an area known as Frayser which is one of the most impoverished areas in the city. At least now it is. For most of my childhood, I lived peacefully in these apartments around the corner from my elementary school. Unfortunately my mother struggled with bills and such and there were times when I had to walk to school with friends while she took the bus to work and school. When I was 10, my life went to hell.

    My mom and I had to move around frequently and rely on people to get everywhere. Every time things would go well, something would always go wrong. Basically I was lower middle-class most of my life and didn't have much stability. Add family deaths on top on that and I was a ticking time bomb waiting to explode.

    The reason I graduated from high school a year early was because I was struggling so much and I was sick of it and wanted an escape.

    Poverty can indeed lead to crime and it's very easy to get caught up in it especially if you come from a broken home. Most of the time, impoverished people who commit crimes do it because they want to provide for their families or because they want to get out of the ghetto.

    The system does indeed suck and much needs to be done to fix it. Stop judging people based on their economic status and HELP them as well as give them hope. You don't know how they got into that situation and you have no right to judge or say anything if you're not gonna do anything to help. Basically don't be a judgmental, snobbish asshole. What works for you WILL NOT WORK FOR ANYBODY ELSE! So don't feed me that patronizing bullshit.

    God knows I've had to put my foot in several people's asses for being dickish snobs.
  17. Can confirm, learning about Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. "Reasonable force" is defined through sections 7-14 and in further law surrounding acceptable uses of violence. Criminals have rights. Mainly because slapping a "you have no more rights" sticker on people via word games is terrifying.

    The only thing I would add here is if a peace officer or similar member of the law is pursuing a suspect, you have permission to aid the peace officer in detaining the subject using force, so long as that force does not cause extreme long term bodily harm or death. (So you can tackle someone, but not break their arm in multiple places, or shank them.)
  18. The police have told me after a home invasion where I fired shots that: "If you're going to shoot a man in your home. Ain't no sense in letting him live to testify against you." Then we discussed home security and had a cup of coffee. You defend what's yours. End of story.

    Trayvon got what was coming to him. Not because he was black with a hoodie. He could've walked away and hopped a few more fences, but no, he came back to confront Zim. Sucks for him the guy he bloodied had a gun and helped him with the lead in his diet.
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  19. You remind me of Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino.
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