The beauty of good CGI and voice acting

[Brovo]

If God is all knowing and omnipresent then how come he doesn't know of the superior 2d waifu?

Because God is a construct of mankind and etc etc, blah blah blah, something something, and I invoke the word of the almighty Dawkwinian, Ra'Men.

 

[Hellis]

"If God is all knowing and omnipresent then how come he doesn't know of the superior 2d waifu?"

Becouse God is all about that Maria.

 

[fatalrendezvous]

Also, on the point of CGI and Graphics. Anyone who say better graphics provides it more grounds for being a artform, is straight up ignorant towards what the word Art is about; Aesthetics and styles and EXPRESSION.

Cubism is modern art, it is sparse and it is to most, just cubes. It is still vidly accepted as art. It is the painted, visual art equivalent of really lazy 2d. Picasso made topical, very intricate paintings, but cave paintings are also regarded as art. Graphics, is not Aesthetics, Graphic engines and 3D are like a brush or a pencil. Nothing else. They provide new forms to make art. But video games, has always been art if the new pretty games are art. Art is the expression of visions, feeling and emotion trough a medium that can be picked up by sensory means. We can see and hear a Dance show, and it can invoke in us feelings, it is art. Movies is art, it's able to stimulate us visually and audibly. Games are just the next step in the evolution of art. And it is such regardless of graphics. Photo realism doesn't make anything more of a art.

Most if not all art, is about telling a story. Storytelling is as old as mankind itself. We as humans tell stories to understand the world. And art is a extension of this as well. All art is about expression and stories. Picasso made a famous painting that told the story of Germany bombing of Spain. And now, we have games tackling all sorts of events and situations.

Making a game takes serious craftsmanship. You have to write, you have to sculpt a world, and you have to balance the interactive experience. Games are not only art, a good game can be a entire art installation of its own; Spec Ops told a story about a soldier who was slowly breaking down, haunted by his past in a way reminiscent of Apocalypse now. Its developers managed to turn a military shooter into a thought provoking experiment about war and how terrible it is.

On this point, I want to clarify that I'm of the opinion that better graphics enhance the experience rather than create the experience.

Obviously, a good story is a good story whether it's on a next-gen console or on the NES. But, the possibilities for expression in the medium of current generation consoles is much broader than the NES was, and it continues to grow. The ability to accurately mirror minute and precise facial expression is an enhancement of the art. As the example, KARA exists as art no matter how you look at it, but my point is that the addition of quality voice acting and motion capture add an extra layer that we don't often get in video games.

 

[Windsong]

I'm just gonna throw out a game that really stands out to me in terms of everything coming together to be something better than the sum of all it's parts.

Risk of Rain.
​

It's a side-scrolling rogue-lite shooter that gets progressively harder the longer you play. With 12 classes and at least a hundred items with effects from missile volley's to summoning plants on death that heal you. The music is delightfully melancholy yet fast paced, strong rock chords really fit it. The art style also get's me as being simplistic and giving you enough to understand most everything. It goes from being deceptively hard to silly easy once you learn what items to get and when. Going from a slow moving robot that hits things to a speed demon hammer smashing machine that spits mortars each time you smack something is always fun. The monster logs and item descriptions are spot on when one thinks of the perspective of the lone survivor of a ship crashing and having to survive on the ever hostile planet.

The art is really fucking cool too.

 

[Hellis]

That game is amazing Windsong, No question about it.

@fatalrendezvous
: The thing is this. That Klara segment isn't a game. Its just a movie clip and it cannot be used to argue for games when its studio is notorius about trying their damnest to remove as much of the game elements as possible. Ernest Adams, a well respected man in game development put it it like this. "Gameplay comes first. Gameplay is the primary source of enterteinment and should be the first thing to consider". Quantic doesn't use this approach, which is why their game is by many critics considered a failed experiment. It robs you of the feeling of interaction, its about as complex a game as facebook one if you look at it., its just jammed into a movie. And then the FB ones atleast don't have a pretense of being game changers.

Thus it should be compared to that of movies, becouse their games are considering cinematic elements more important than the game ones. The developer himself has outright stated this. Art is about expression and yes in ways graphic might be seen enhancing it. But it rarely, if ever does add anything else then a broader satisfaction for the audience. The games that people point to as art, that critics from both the development and the mainstream are baffled by are never the massive funds, super graphics ones. Not even Beyond; Two Souls with Ellen Page and its super quality engine in it. And I wager this was becouse the pretentious and lofty goal of trying to remove everything game wise from a game and still sell it as one. It was a movie with some buttons in it. To focused on the graphical and writing with absolutely atrocious gameplay. Quality movie though.

Spoiler

This has been hailed as art by many, myself included. the game blows anything else In my opionon out of the water. It's the perfect marriage between visuals, story telling and game elements. That's when you get art.

and this game is considered one of the most important releases in quite a while both by people like Total Buiscit and major, not at all reliable outlets like IGN. Why? Becouse it takes simplicity and gives us a beutyfull handcrafted enviroment and setting as well as a integrated combat system and shows that things like B:TS can gush over its own graphical photorealism all it wants but it still doesn't matter.

And sure. Both of them were likely helped by the fact that technology has taken a step or a hundred from the era of pacman.

But. My point stands. Graphics engines are just tools and often it is the people with less money that achieve art. Becouse they have to work with less, this pushes them to use their talents to the fullest. They can't take actors and completely mimic their face. They can't sell it on being "Super realistic graphics.". They are the true craftsmen, who takes a little clay and make a ming vase from it. Where big companies take a huge block of stone, hires a hundred artisans for it and maybe get a good looking but tacky statue from it. Imo of course.

Art evolves. We went from cave paintings to Van Gogh is all. The reason earlier games are harder to be considered a art is becouse the intentions of them, not the tools. Back then it was a emerging craft, people themselves didn't consider themselves artists nor could they see what the potential. If we had the minds of today working on them then, you'd have straight up art pieces with the simples of tools.

video games are also completely unique, which complicates the definition further. DOTA and LoL Are being considered psuedo-sports. This lands us in a territory where the Game overrides the expression. I would not call those games art, despite the effort that goes into upgrading them visually with a better and better engine. Because the intention is not be art, but a brand and sport with all that it entails. The intentions here is not expression, it is competition. Meanwhile, games like Heavy Rain are borderline Movies and tech demos and thus fail to represent games as a medium and art.

 

[Kairia]

I bought Heavy Rain solely based on the fact that it was a beautiful and cinematically impressive game. I've been a fan of the Final Fantasy series since childhood and one of the things I loved about those games were the gorgeous cutscenes, so it seemed right up my alley. What I found was the game didn't have much to offer even though Heavy Rain is known for the vast amount of options you can choose to progress the storyline. The game was beautiful and the characters were well voiced but I just couldn't connect with it. You were just walking and making decisions and watching what happens next. That's really all there was to the story. I "played" about an hour or more of it and I just couldn't bring myself to go any longer.

Spoiler Alert

...and I was really looking forward to cutting that guy's finger off.

 

[Hellis]

Heavy rain and Beyond are movies. Its all they are. There is no sense of game to them

 

[The Philosoraptor]

If God is all knowing and omnipresent then how come he doesn't know of the superior 2d waifu?

We've got bad WiFi in the clouds. I've got to go down to Earth to get on Wikipedia.

 

[fatalrendezvous]

I don't see the validity in your argument, @Hellis. I see where you're coming from, but it's contradictory. On the one hand you're telling me that "art" is an interpretation to be classified by the viewer, while on the other hand attempting to classify the same medium we're talking about.

Isn't that for the viewer to decide? I'm not trying to sound snobbish, but just to point out the flaw in your argument, I would respond with something along the lines of "Who the fuck are you to tell me that Heavy Rain isn't art?" Maybe you didn't enjoy it. But if someone else did, can they not classify it as art? Isn't art in the eye of the beholder, as we've been saying all along?

You can call it "not a game," certainly. Though "barely a game" is probably more accurate because it is playable, making it a game by definition. By your logic, The Walking Dead series of point-and-click games by Telltale aren't games either because they've taken out the gameplay, and those have been pretty critically acclaimed. In fact by your logic, any point-and-click adventure is not a game, which seems ridiculous and a bit hypocritical.

For the record, I'm aware that KARA is not a game. But I pointed it out because it's a perfect example of what games can achieve in terms of depicting and conveying emotions to an audience in a manner that games traditionally do not use.

Isn't that what we just mentioned earlier in the thread as being what art is, in the first place? The ability for a piece to invoke thought and emotion on its viewer?

Bottom line, I'm not here to start or continue an argument about what classifies (or declassifies) a game as an expression of art.

I made the post specifically to point out how emotionally powerful games can be as works of art.

In KARA, I am made to sympathize with the primary character and experience emotions related to that character within just mere MINUTES of watching. One of my points is, imagine that type of storytelling drawn out over a game played for dozens of hours, where we can really develop the character and connect with the character. That type of good storytelling is rare, even in non-gaming media.

 

[Hellis]

Walking dead actually have better and more clearly defined game play that any quantic game, so there is that. I feel it does the narrative game genre better then anyone. Its not going for heavy handed "I am not a game"cinematic, its going for choose your own adventure style from when we were playing text adventures. And it had about a million time sbetter voice actors and writing. But I digress, we are in a lock here.


The technology behind Kara is amazing, yes. But its technology, not art. Its the newest in a line of tools we could possibly use to create art. And what makes art is how we use them. That clip is a short movie. It is art In that sense I suppose. It sfunny how quantic is completely incapable of putting that kind of emotion into their games.



ANd what makes a game, per definition, is a common ruleset and gameplay. So yes. They are games in the faintest of ways. Or, they are simply multipath movies. Viewers choice I feel.

What it comes down to i thought? It's a balance of three things; Simulation, Ludology and Narratology. Heavy rain is so far down the Narratology corner its more or less a movie with different choice your own adventure. It consiststs of mainly quicktime events, which is the only thing resembling gameplay in it.

 

[Windsong]

Let's see a show of hands. Who would have sex with KARA? I mean she even DECLARES herself suitable for sexual interaction!

Also, art is the most subjective thing. Philosophers and fools have argued what is and isn't art since the dawn of time I'm sure. Krug and Lur in the cave drawing buffalo might have argued that one's interpretation of the four legged circle on the wall with horns was better.
People have looked at the Mona Lisa and gone "That's not art. It's a painting of a woman." And walked away without another word.

 

[Razilin]

Let's see a show of hands. Who would have sex with KARA?

<raises hand>

Sure, why not?

I'll try anything twice.

 

[Hellis]

Haha. Fair enough windsong. I conceded. Also, no, I would not stick it in robogirl. All those mechanical parts ;_;

 

[Windsong]

Haha. Fair enough windsong. I conceded. Also, no, I would not stick it in robogirl. All those mechanical parts ;_;

 

[Brovo]

Frankly I don't like Heavy Rain because it's a game trying so hard to be a movie that it loses the point of being a game anymore, and it also doesn't help that the story was filled with a ton of pointless dialogue before it got to anything really interesting like certain scenes involving certain fingers...

... Basically there's the game that tries so hard to be art by mimicking film or literature that it loses the one thing gaming has that they don't (interaction), and there are games that are art by virtue of how they handle their interactions with you. Example: Spec Ops The Line. It's a third person shooter that uses its story to make you question your actions, and the very reality around you. While playing you don't really feel excited so much as you feel compelled to finish the story, and the story itself makes you feel exhausted, uncertain, agitated, and gives you the same feelings as a soldier going through shell shock. It's an interaction-driven narrative. While your progression is linear, how you choose to behave is all on you: Try to save some civis, try to just pass them by, shoot some snipers shooting at civis, and so on. It forces you to act upon the world and live with the consequences of your actions. Heavy Rain tells you to push a button to continue the story. That's where, to me, a game like Spec Ops the line is an artistic game, whereas Heavy Rain is a game trying to be an artistic film.

 

[Windsong]

... Basically there's the game that tries so hard to be art by mimicking film or literature that it loses the one thing gaming has that they don't (interaction), and there are games that are art by virtue of how they handle their interactions with you. Example: Spec Ops The Line. It's a third person shooter that uses its story to make you question your actions, and the very reality around you. While playing you don't really feel excited so much as you feel compelled to finish the story, and the story itself makes you feel exhausted, uncertain, agitated, and gives you the same feelings as a soldier going through shell shock. It's an interaction-driven narrative. While your progression is linear, how you choose to behave is all on you: Try to save some civis, try to just pass them by, shoot some snipers shooting at civis, and so on. It forces you to act upon the world and live with the consequences of your actions. Heavy Rain tells you to push a button to continue the story. That's where, to me, a game like Spec Ops the line is an artistic game, whereas Heavy Rain is a game trying to be an artistic film.

You mean unlike Bioshock: Infinite? Where it tells you what to feel?

Where's that picture from the bridge in Half-Life 2 comparing it to B:Inifinishit..

 

[Hellis]

Frankly I don't like Heavy Rain because it's a game trying so hard to be a movie that it loses the point of being a game anymore, and it also doesn't help that the story was filled with a ton of pointless dialogue before it got to anything really interesting like certain scenes involving certain fingers...

... Basically there's the game that tries so hard to be art by mimicking film or literature that it loses the one thing gaming has that they don't (interaction), and there are games that are art by virtue of how they handle their interactions with you. Example: Spec Ops The Line. It's a third person shooter that uses its story to make you question your actions, and the very reality around you. While playing you don't really feel excited so much as you feel compelled to finish the story, and the story itself makes you feel exhausted, uncertain, agitated, and gives you the same feelings as a soldier going through shell shock. It's an interaction-driven narrative. While your progression is linear, how you choose to behave is all on you: Try to save some civis, try to just pass them by, shoot some snipers shooting at civis, and so on. It forces you to act upon the world and live with the consequences of your actions. Heavy Rain tells you to push a button to continue the story. That's where, to me, a game like Spec Ops the line is an artistic game, whereas Heavy Rain is a game trying to be an artistic film.

Its for the same reason, I find WD to be a better game then HR aswell. It is very clearly a game. Its not just, "press button to continue". It has the elements of point ant click adventures, and inventory management and even combat. Yet it never hampers its narrative. Meanwhile, Heavy rain as you said, is trying to be a movie.

 

[Hellis]

Atleast Infinite had charachter and story I gave a shit about.... and I got to shoot people? Man, I wonder how much better it had been if it hadn't been based on Bioshocks old system of doing things. Just imagine it as a point and clikc, Walking Dead styled game..

 

[Brovo]

You mean unlike Bioshock: Infinite? Where it tells you what to feel?

Where's that picture from the bridge in Half-Life 2 comparing it to B:Inifinishit..

Bioshock Infinite was a poorly written game anyway. People gush over it because it has a "useful" AI, who's one purpose is to use magical time warping powers that are vaguely sort of explained as hard determination that gets broken by free will which would imply the universe is not deterministic, which goes contrary to everything which was happening before, and...

...tl;dr: It trips on itself.

Also I put quotations around useful, because the AI came across to me as something ripped straight out of a Disney fairy tale. If you were a bookish girl trapped in a building for several years, you wouldn't come out looking like a 9/10 with exquisite social skills. You'd come out a psychotic mess with a complete lack of societal awareness.

Half-Life 2 is a game where the story serviced to get you across multiple pretty set pieces. The story is not the core part of Half-Life 2, the physics engine is, and how advanced it was for its time. It's not a game that pushes the limits of storytelling by any stretch of the imagination, yet the reason why people adore it so is because it's entirely interaction driven. You win or lose based on how well you play the game, not based on how well you push a button.

But then, I don't consider Half-Life 2 or Bioshock Infinite to be prime examples of artistic expression. I think they're shiny tech demos that make you feel good playing them so long as you don't think about the story too hard, and you know what? That's fine. It should still be protected as an art because it's not up to me or anyone else to define what gets to be art based on how we personally feel about it.

Bioshock, on the other hand, is artistic expression out the wazoo. It features deconstructions of religion and ideology everywhere, and a morality system that makes you think between mercy or efficiency, that plays straight into the game's core themes centered around nihilism.

 

[Razilin]

I completely forgot about that pic!