Sentient Animals - Fact or Myth?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Hey, remember that time we removed the debate thread prefix as part of an effort to stop derpbates turning into arguments here in General Chatting? Yeah, the line into stupid argument has been crossed. Take it to PMs if you want to continue it.

As much as I've been avoiding Debates myself of late... You guys had to see that coming.
People aren't going to just give up debating because a Tag is gone, the desire/itch is still there.

It's just going to worm it's way into the Discussions.

 

[Drakel]

As much as I've been avoiding meth myself of late... You guys had to see that coming.
People aren't going to just give up coke because a cigarette is gone, the desire/itch is still there.

It's just going to worm it's way into the lungs.

Holy fuck the addiction is real.

No. But in all seriousness, I think that it doesn't matter how much you as an individual wants/needs to fulfill your 'itch' in debating. It's more harmful overall to the site and the members in it along with the fact that this isn't the place for hard-core debating. This is an RP site and I think it's clear that the main heads of this site's dictatorship Modship all agree that it is best for debating to be kept to a minimum. It's not really my place to say such though I do believe that it's a rather obvious point and just thought it should be said.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

No. But in all seriousness, I think that it doesn't matter how much you as an individual wants/needs to fulfill your 'itch' in debating. It's more harmful overall to the site and the members in it along with the fact that this isn't the place for hard-core debating. This is an RP site and I think it's clear that the main heads of this site's dictatorship Modship all agree that it is best for debating to be kept to a minimum. It's not really my place to say such though I do believe that it's a rather obvious point and just thought it should be said.

I'm not defending the shit starters. I'm getting just as tried of them as the Staff are.

I'm simply saying we really shouldn't be expecting it to go away just because the Tags were gone.
If the debate starters listened that easily... The Tag wouldn't need removing and we'd able to solve it simply be asking them to calm down.

 

[Jorick]

As much as I've been avoiding Debates myself of late... You guys had to see that coming.
People aren't going to just give up debating because a Tag is gone, the desire/itch is still there.

It's just going to worm it's way into the Discussions.

Of course we knew they'd still happen, but the big blow up ridiculous flame war debates have been far less common since the removal. Slapping people for debating is to keep it from escalating further or to keep a thread on topic, not to try to prevent any and all debate.

 

[Dervish]

I agree vhole-heartedly! As supreme beings on this Earth, every other living thing exists only to support and nurish us humans. And besydes... I LOVE a good beef-steak! Fresh, wel done, and juicy. I'm very carnivorus in my diet. :)

Out of curiosity, and this is just a hypothetical situation mind you that I'm interested in your take in particular because your perspective of our rights as the dominant species to use and exploit the world's resources to our benefit, but let's say an advanced alien species comes to Earth and conquers it, subduing the human race and eliminating any chance of retaliation. After centuries, Earth is colonized by these aliens and they are using our planet for its rich resources, including what remains of the human population. It sucks for humans, but it's clear the aliens are a part of Earth now and as the Apex species.

With that in mind and how it relates to your current views, would you consider it the aliens' right to use and exploit Earth's resources because they are the de facto masters of Earth and have lived on the planet long enough that it has been multiple generations since their arrival (no one alive can remember a time before the aliens)? Would our Sapience matter, especially considering how advanced they are? To be clear, we're talking about beings that are far above what we are in ever conceivable way; we're utterly beneath them and primative seeming that it would be like us talking about any of the apes on this planet.

Anyone can feel free to answer this, I just quoted you because your perspective is quite different from the others in the thread since you seem to take a stance that our dominance gives us the right to do whatever we please, verses what I perceive to be the more pedestrian view that we're simply one species of many and as the dominant species, it's our duty to be the caretakers of the world's resources so everything can ideally thrive.

I just want to be clear that despite our snippy history the past couple months, this is not meant to single you out or be confrontrational at all, it's legitimately something I wanted to add to the discussion since it's pretty fascinating.

 

[Marchosias]

Out of curiosity, and this is just a hypothetical situation mind you that I'm interested in your take in particular because your perspective of our rights as the dominant species to use and exploit the world's resources to our benefit, but let's say an advanced alien species comes to Earth and conquers it, subduing the human race and eliminating any chance of retaliation. After centuries, Earth is colonized by these aliens and they are using our planet for its rich resources, including what remains of the human population. It sucks for humans, but it's clear the aliens are a part of Earth now and as the Apex species.

With that in mind and how it relates to your current views, would you consider it the aliens' right to use and exploit Earth's resources because they are the de facto masters of Earth and have lived on the planet long enough that it has been multiple generations since their arrival (no one alive can remember a time before the aliens)? Would our Sapience matter, especially considering how advanced they are? To be clear, we're talking about beings that are far above what we are in ever conceivable way; we're utterly beneath them and primative seeming that it would be like us talking about any of the apes on this planet.

Anyone can feel free to answer this, I just quoted you because your perspective is quite different from the others in the thread since you seem to take a stance that our dominance gives us the right to do whatever we please, verses what I perceive to be the more pedestrian view that we're simply one species of many and as the dominant species, it's our duty to be the caretakers of the world's resources so everything can ideally thrive.

I just want to be clear that despite our snippy history the past couple months, this is not meant to single you out or be confrontrational at all, it's legitimately something I wanted to add to the discussion since it's pretty fascinating.

Interesting question. But you missed one very important point. I never sayed aniwhere, that we Humans have the right to exploit other living things. Use them, yes. As food, as a source of raw materials, etc, etc. It is only natural. I mean, every pecking order has one big dog at the top rung, and in the case of Earth, we are the big dog. At least until some other species manage to topple us from that rung and take our place. Natural order of things; there are predators, and there is prey. Predators use the prey to sustain them. But they dont exploit it, because they are dependent on it. To sustain them, and provide entertainment, at times (some predator animals like toying vith theyr prey, not unlike some humans enjoy hunting for sport). Maybe it is a litle cruel, but such is life. We do seem to have come to our senses, in not hunting endangered species and actively protecting them.

So if some uber-advanced aliens came and taken-over that top rung, and we have no chance to resist them (until/unless we evolve enogh to be able to, if and when)... wel, shit happens. All I'd say is - we had a good run as the big dog so far, but all good things eventualy come to a end.

And I'm under no ilusion that we Humans wil remain Earth's supreme species forever. Evolution is a on-going process. And we are just one of MANY steps in it.

 

[Dervish]

Interesting question. But you missed one very important point. I never sayed aniwhere, that we Humans have the right to exploit other living things. Use them, yes. As food, as a source of raw materials, etc, etc. It is only natural. I mean, every pecking order has one big dog at the top rung, and in the case of Earth, we are the big dog. At least until some other species manage to topple us from that rung and take our place. Natural order of things; there are predators, and there is prey. Predators use the prey to sustain them. But they dont exploit it, because they are dependent on it. To sustain them, and provide entertainment, at times (some predator animals like toying vith theyr prey, not unlike some humans enjoy hunting for sport). Maybe it is a litle cruel, but such is life. We do seem to have come to our senses, in not hunting endangered species and actively protecting them.

So if some uber-advanced aliens came and taken-over that top rung, and we have no chance to resist them (until/unless we evolve enogh to be able to, if and when)... wel, shit happens. All I'd say is - we had a good run as the big dog so far, but all good things eventualy come to a end.

And I'm under no ilusion that we Humans wil remain Earth's supreme species forever. Evolution is a on-going process. And we are just one of MANY steps in it.

My apologies; exploited was probably the wrong word to use in that context. I meant it more along the lines of making use of something for our benefit (even if it's pretty one-sided), rather than the much more malignant use of the word. I certainly didn't mean to imply anything like you advocating abusing the world's resources because we can!

And thank you for the response, that's pretty in line with what I expected with that philosphy. It's kind of a "tough shit" situation if we were ever put in that predicament, and I don't know if we'd ever really evolve to surpass the aliens. I mean, all life keeps adapting, and they'd no doubt be evolving right alongside us... which now that I think about it gives some disturbing implications now I just thought about selective evolution and domestication.

What I mean by that is it's not unfeasible our aliens wouldn't start culling undesirable traits in the human race while breeding desirable ones, kind of like how we domesticated wolves into dogs, or arochs into cows. If you wanted us for obedient labour, you'd suppress and cull people predisposed to more independent, aggressive and rebellious traits while promoting more meek personalities and larger and healthier bodies, for an oversimplifying example.

 

[Marchosias]

My apologies; exploited was probably the wrong word to use in that context. I meant it more along the lines of making use of something for our benefit (even if it's pretty one-sided), rather than the much more malignant use of the word. I certainly didn't mean to imply anything like you advocating abusing the world's resources because we can!

And thank you for the response, that's pretty in line with what I expected with that philosphy. It's kind of a "tough shit" situation if we were ever put in that predicament, and I don't know if we'd ever really evolve to surpass the aliens. I mean, all life keeps adapting, and they'd no doubt be evolving right alongside us... which now that I think about it gives some disturbing implications now I just thought about selective evolution and domestication.

What I mean by that is it's not unfeasible our aliens wouldn't start culling undesirable traits in the human race while breeding desirable ones, kind of like how we domesticated wolves into dogs, or arochs into cows. If you wanted us for obedient labour, you'd suppress and cull people predisposed to more independent, aggressive and rebellious traits while promoting more meek personalities and larger and healthier bodies, for an oversimplifying example.

Ah, but theres the diference. Even if the aliens tryed to "domesticate" us, they'd fail. No mater how superior they are, simply because, as vas pointed out before, we humans use our sapience actively, not passivly, like animals. We are prideful, stubborn and self-important. All valuable traits for adaptation. Animals are not. Human nature does not tolerate enslavement. Never has, never will. So, we'd end up either overthrowing the aliens somehow, someday... or they'd exterminate us, because we wuld never submit to them.

As for all life being adaptive, true... but motivation also factors into it. If one is motivated to change and adapt, one wil do so at a faster rate then someone who isnt motivated. Take me for instance, and my un-dying motivation to be strong and get rid of any and all vulnerabilitys, psychological or physical, that ppl can take advantage of. If I havent had a rough (understatement) child-hood, messed-up family, and had to grow up very fast as a result, relying only on myself, I wuldnt be vhat I am today.

So yes... aliens wuld be evolving and adapting too, but we wuld be doing it faster and more eficiently, being more motivated to do so.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ah, but theres the diference. Even if the aliens tryed to "domesticate" us, they'd fail. No mater how superior they are, simply because, as vas pointed out before, we humans use our sapience actively, not passivly, like animals. We are prideful, stubborn and self-important. All valuable traits for adaptation. Animals are not. Human nature does not tolerate enslavement. Never has, never will. So, we'd end up either overthrowing the aliens somehow, someday... or they'd exterminate us, because we wuld never submit to them.

If you're talking modern day humans then yes, we most definitely wouldn't just take it.
But if the Aliens were truly so far above us then they'd likely be selectively breeding us.

Putting preference on those who are the first to coward out and bow to all the aliens whims.
Which over the generations, especially if the Aliens were watching for dissenters to kill off (like primative humans did with uncooperative wolves. Like my friends farm does with the Male chickens that pose a serious threat to the females well being).

So given time where no one left alive remembers a time without aliens? Considering the Aliens likely have means to accelerate the process far faster than humans can? And considering they likely found means for Aliens to have a much longer life expectancy (Meaning this is at least 200-300 years instead of 100, and with much faster means of selective breeding), I can definitely see the human race being reduced to livestock.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

Also known as the entire premise behind the book 'Under The Skin'.

 

[Brovo]

Mind, Gwazi, that in order to create tame humans like you would a domesticated animal, you would have to genetically modify/selectively breed them sufficiently so as to create a new species outright. Ex: Dog from a wolf, cow from their deceased ancestor species, et cetera. Only for humans, you would have to sap their willpower entirely, their need and desire for independence especially--the resultant species would be nothing like us save perhaps in appearance.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

True, reaching such a point would start to raise the question as to if they're still human or a descendent.

Another possibility also though.
Selective breeding might not even need to be a thing.
You could just damage the drain outright to change them.

 

[Marchosias]

Only for humans, you would have to sap their willpower entirely, their need and desire for independence especially--the resultant species would be nothing like us save perhaps in appearance.

Exacly. They may as wel create androids in our image instead; it wuld be faster, cheaper, more eficient and more manageble. We humans are literaly un-tameable. :) At least not vhile stil remaining - humans.

And that thing about us having shorter life-spans, thats actualy a advantage! A flame that burns shorter burns twice as bright. We'd more driven to adapt and change, then they wuld.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Exacly. They may as wel create androids in our image instead

Only if the Aliens ate metal... In which case why are humans being preserved? :P

And that thing about us having shorter life-spans, thats actualy a advantage! A flame that burns shorter burns twice as bright. We'd more driven to adapt and change, then they wuld.

Or more driven to chase the rock being thrown into the tall grass if Chickens are any standard to go by.

 

[Marchosias]

Or more driven to chase the rock being thrown into the tall grass if Chickens are any standard to go by.

So let me get this straigt... you are measuring Humans by... Chicken standards? Wel, that gives me a rather enlightening insight in-to your level of self-esteem, mister Gwazi "Identity Crysis" Magnum. :D XD I do hope I'm vrong, ofc.

Only if the Aliens ate metal... In which case why are humans being preserved? :P

Metal is a important part of any diet. :) Thats why you shuld eat plenty of lettuce, to get those bones/tendons/ligaments full of metal and make them flexible and strong! So if the aliens ate metal... at least I'd give them points for healthy eating :c As oposed to poisoning theyr systems by eating the majority of Humans, filled-up to the brim with junk food and sweets. Not exacly first-class meal hehe!

 

[Ser K+]

We're animals, and we're sapient.

 

[Astaroth]

@Marchosias

Er, "metal" and "minerals" aren't the same thing. Neither are "metal" and "iron". Iron is a metal, but not all metal is iron, and we can't even eat more than trace amounts of iron on a protein level. We need it, but we only need a little of it. That's why it can be dangerous to take supplements unless you're anemic or have a specific deficiency; high quantities POISON us.

But even if metal were healthy to eat, attempting to apply our own dietary needs to those of an alien species is ridiculous. Even different species on our own planet have different dietary needs. What is toxic to certain species is perfectly safe for human consumption, and vice versa. For all we know, a hypothetical alien physiology might very well be designed to break down high quantities of heavy metals like lead or arsenic. (Which are definitely poisonous for us.)

As to humans being fatty and sweet from junk food, well. Humans aren't known for preferring nutrition over flavor, so aliens might not be so different. It's all pure speculation though, really. It's just that the basic science here was bothering me.

 

[Marchosias]

As to humans being fatty and sweet from junk food, well. Humans aren't known for preferring nutrition over flavor,

Only those humans who lack self-discipline. Dont get me vrong, I like a good chocolate cake on ocasion too (even thogh I know its not good for me but I just cant resist it), but not at the expense of my overal health and fitness. Eating sweets every day is out of the question. 1-2 times a week, at most.

Hell, thats one of the few things that animals actualy have alot to teach us. EAT RIGHT!!! You wont see a cat eating crap, thats for sure. My cat - she is VERY picky about vhat she eats. She dont even like cat food, not those dried-up cracker things aniway. Just fresh meat, and especialy fish.

 

[Sidhe]

Only those humans who lack self-discipline. Dont get me vrong, I like a good chocolate cake on ocasion too (even thogh I know its not good for me but I just cant resist it), but not at the expense of my overal health and fitness. Eating sweets every day is out of the question. 1-2 times a week, at most.

Hell, thats one of the few things that animals actualy have alot to teach us. EAT RIGHT!!! You wont see a cat eating crap, thats for sure. My cat - she is VERY picky about vhat she eats. She dont even like cat food, not those dried-up cracker things aniway. Just fresh meat, and especialy fish.

Many domestic animals happily eat the pet food equivalent of McDonalds. I'm an extreme advocate of proper pet nutrition - especially feline nutrition - but that doesn't change the fact that many cats do eat this junk, because the pet food industry does a really good job at keeping most pet owners in the dark about what they're really feeding their animals. I have one very picky cat who only eats minimal ingredient food, but the other two? They'll eat anything. Saying that animals won't eat junk food just isn't correct. They will.

Note that I am specifically talking about domestic animals here, not wild animals. That's a whole 'nother ball park.

 

[Marchosias]

Many domestic animals happily eat the pet food equivalent of McDonalds. I'm an extreme advocate of proper pet nutrition - especially feline nutrition - but that doesn't change the fact that many cats do eat this junk, because the pet food industry does a really good job at keeping most pet owners in the dark about what they're really feeding their animals. I have one very picky cat who only eats minimal ingredient food, but the other two? They'll eat anything. Saying that animals won't eat junk food just isn't correct. They will.

Note that I am specifically talking about domestic animals here, not wild animals. That's a whole 'nother ball park.

Wel yes, domestic animals do tend to adopt some of our bad habits, since they form conections with us, thats true. Only time wild animals wuld eat anything crappy, is vhen they are literaly starving and need something in theyr stomach to sustain them a litle longer.