Gun Control- Yes, No, Maybe so?

More Gun Control?


  • Total voters
    43
Status
Not open for further replies.
No, you're not... not in America, anyway. However, you do need a "Safety Certificate." Which costs $25, on top of the DROS fee. Used to be you only needed it for handguns, but I seem to remember hearing that they've put the "need" on rifles and shotguns, as well. Not to mention requiring you to buy a lock, even if you already have a lock. Yeah, that lock you just bought is only "good" for thirty days, so if you buy another gun after that thirty days, you have to buy another lock.

Our government at work. Anal retentive as always. Heh... you should ask me just how anal retentive California is, when it comes to "gun control."
*Commiefornia, ftfw
Driving a car is not a Right, but a privilege. Keeping and bearing arms WITHOUT INFRINGEMENT is a Right, guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution. What we do have "licenses" for is carrying, so those who carry for their defense have the proper training. Even that is an infringement, however, given some states refuse law-abiding people their right to bear arms by denying them a license. And arresting them if they carry without one. Even though the Constitution says nothing about the government being able to "license" ANY of our Rights.

Would you like the government to require a "license" for Free Speech or Religion? Where would you like to go, and how far?
Using that logic is...no. Religion and Free Speech are not things you can point at people and kill, wound, or maim them with. I will agree that the 2nd Amendment expressly says that it shall not be infringed, as it is the amendment that secures the people's freedom against the possibility the government or an invading force tries to impose on us.

Back to the matter and not addressing a logical fallacy, the US constitution expressly forbids anybody from trying to lessen the ability of another to keep and bear arms. People from other countries are wont to say to us that making changes to our constitution is fine and dandy, but I truly want to disagree. I'm a staunch supporter of individual rights and letting the Federal gov't dictate who can practice their 2nd Amendment rights is ass-backwards. The fact that mentally ill people can get their hands on guns is not the fault of guns, but a failure in our mental healthcare system. You take the hands away from a murderer, it doesn't change the fact that they're a murderer. Columbine still would have happened if they had their hands on hunting rifles or knives, machetes, hatchets, pipe bombs (IIRC, they did have these) or whatever else.

Even if we lived in a world where gun control/gun bans did work, it'd still be akin to a wag of the finger and a slap on the wrist, where we still just tell the mentally disturbed to go home, you're troubled, friendo. Attacking the problem at the source by upping research on how to eliminate dangerous mental illnesses and making it easier for those in lower-income neighborhoods given over to gang violence and gang activity to move their children to better schools and away from the influences of gangster culture would do infinitely more for the American people than de-clawing the citizens.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Roose Hurro
The whole point of using a firearm for self-defense is so you don't have to give your life in the face of evil. Without the right to self-defense (the whole point of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms), then you have no means to preserve your life. If that is insanity, then I embrace it.

"Tied to a technology?" Does a right need to "float" on its own just to be a Right? I'd say no. And remember this: Your Freedom of Speech is indeed tied to a technology in this "modern" world, a tech the Founding Fathers had no conception of. It's called a "cell phone."
If you sincerely live day to day worrying that you will need something on the level of a firearm to defend yourself, you live in a delusional and paranoid world, even in the context of gun violence in the United States.

Keep in mind, holding slaves was also considered a right. One which split your country in two.

No, a cell phone is not even remotely a logical comparison to a firearm. I don't need to pick up the phone to be shot in the head. Plus, if I dislike a phone call, I can just... Close the phone. If I'm being shot at, I'm going to die. Because chances are pretty good that I'm being shot at outside of my house, which is where my firearm would be stored. Unless you propose making it legal for everyone to carry firearms wherever they go. That will end well, I'm sure.

Freedom of Speech cannot be compared to owning a gun. The former allows you to speak your mind and ignore those who you dislike. The latter allows you to own an instant death flinger without any question put into mind of what the forefathers originally imagined a gun to be.
 
Even if we lived in a world where gun control/gun bans did work, it'd still be akin to a wag of the finger and a slap on the wrist, where we still just tell the mentally disturbed to go home, you're troubled, friendo.
1zG88zN.jpg


I don't know how many times I have to post this before it gets through... But I'll just keep repeating myself until this thread is closed I suppose.
 
I didn't ignore them, I simply chose to provide info in refutation through a different source... the words of others.
Which basically is saying you let others think for you. Honestly, I'm a gun owner who's probably been the most vocal person in this thread against legislation that adversely affects gun owners, and I am capable of talking with people who may be against firearm ownership in an attempt to reach an understanding. I want people to feel safe and supportive of gun owners by demonstrating we're not all far right wing zealots who think that any form of licensing and legislation is evil and going to take away their guns. I love being able to own firearms and I will fight tooth and nail against any movement to restrict that privilege, but not thinking there's a relationship between the wrong people being able to easily obtain firearms and the vastly higher instances of gun crime in the US is willful ignorance at best. Asking for licensing isn't obscene or even restricting your rights, provided they don't limit your ability to purchase firearms and ammunition afterwards. Nobody bats an eye at needing a passport to leave the country or a license to drive a car, and just because driving is a privilege doesn't mean suddenly, cars are going to be banned. It would be impractical, stupid, and nationwide non-compliance would be the norm. The same thing with guns. The fact you feel you need guns to protect yourself from the impending invasion of your home any minute now is a symptom that maybe, just maybe, there should be some controls in place to keep those hypothetical invaders from actually manifesting?

Anyways, that's all I'm going to say about the matter, because I'm sure you're taking this all into careful weighed consideration and are capable of rational, calculated thought.
 
Driving a car is not a Right, but a privilege. Keeping and bearing arms WITHOUT INFRINGEMENT is a Right, guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution. What we do have "licenses" for is carrying, so those who carry for their defense have the proper training. Even that is an infringement, however, given some states refuse law-abiding people their right to bear arms by denying them a license. And arresting them if they carry without one. Even though the Constitution says nothing about the government being able to "license" ANY of our Rights.

Would you like the government to require a "license" for Free Speech or Religion? Where would you like to go, and how far?
Eh, no, license requirements are in no way an infringement of rights. If you want to go by the literal text of the Constitution instead of the history of interpretations which the Supreme Court has given that clarifies how the Second Amendment is actually applied, then there's a damned strong argument for saying that only those enrolled in well regulated militias should be allowed to have guns. Why? Here's the text of the Second Amendment: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." It's saying militias are important, therefore right to bear arms shall not be infringed, which could easily be interpreted to mean that only militia members have that right. Licenses could easily be required to meet the "well regulated" part of the militia thing, because licenses are totally a form of regulation, so there's no conflict there. Also, the Bill of Rights is about further limitations on Congress for the vast majority of it, Second Amendment included, so all it means in plain text is that the federal government can't infringe the "right to bear arms." State level though? Depends on the state's own laws.

Of course that's not how it was interpreted over the years, so that's not how it is. Wanna know how the Supreme Court has actually ruled on these things? In the ruling of Presser v. Illinois in 1886, one thing they noted was that the Second Amendment only prevents Congress from regulating gun ownership, not individual states. Then later in 1939, in United States v. Miller, they ruled that it was actually fine for the federal government to require people to register certain kinds of firearms, in this case meaning fully automatic weapons and short-barreled rifles and shotguns, because by their ruling such weaponry had nothing to do with the kind of arms that would be expected of a well regulated militia. Then in a couple cases in 2008 and 2010, District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago, they finally clarified that yes it's totally legal to own a firearm for legal non-militia reasons like self defense, which apparently had been sort of an unspoken understanding for a long time. EDIT: Oh, and that McDonald case was the one that finally clarified that the right to bear arms applied at a state level. In 2010. That's how recently the right to bear arms actually became applicable to state governments. Seriously. Luckily, given the previous rulings on regulation being cool, states requiring licenses is still not a violation of rights.

Either way you look at it, license requirements are not an infringement. Plain text reading would mean perhaps only militias can have guns as far as the federal government is concerned, but the state governments can do whatever the hell they want. Adding in the Supreme Court interpretations it's still totally fine for state governments to not allow people to bear arms, and it's fine for the federal government to do some regulations, but it does remove that pesky militia concern. Seriously, that no infringement thing isn't at all universal, no matter how much you'd like it to be.

Also, fun fact, until the Supreme Court ruled that actually yes the rights of freedom of speech and religion should apply to states too, it didn't. For quite a long while in the history of the US, states didn't have to give their citizens those rights. That changed because they interpreted the 14th Amendment to mean that federal protections had to be applied to states as well. Wanna know when the Supreme Court decided those rights actually applied to the state level governments too? Freedom of speech, 1925; freedom of the press, 1931; free exercise of religion, 1940; establishment of religion, 1947. For the majority of the history of the United States, the states could have absolutely required licenses for free speech or religion. The Constitution is nowhere near as far-reaching or all-inclusive as you think, and it used to be far less so before Supreme Court rulings deemed it otherwise. The plain text of the document is far less important than you may realize. Supreme Court interpretations and rulings can change and have changed these things drastically, so don't get too caught up on the plain text reading.
 
Last edited:
  • Thank You
Reactions: Dervish
If you sincerely live day to day worrying that you will need something on the level of a firearm to defend yourself, you live in a delusional and paranoid world, even in the context of gun violence in the United States.

Keep in mind, holding slaves was also considered a right. One which split your country in two.

No, a cell phone is not even remotely a logical comparison to a firearm. I don't need to pick up the phone to be shot in the head. Plus, if I dislike a phone call, I can just... Close the phone. If I'm being shot at, I'm going to die. Because chances are pretty good that I'm being shot at outside of my house, which is where my firearm would be stored. Unless you propose making it legal for everyone to carry firearms wherever they go. That will end well, I'm sure.

Freedom of Speech cannot be compared to owning a gun. The former allows you to speak your mind and ignore those who you dislike. The latter allows you to own an instant death flinger without any question put into mind of what the forefathers originally imagined a gun to be.
I don't... because I have a gun to defend myself with. Just like the criminal (remember, never bring a knife to a gunfight). Only I don't go about threatening others with my Right. Want to deal with "gun violence"...? Lock up the criminals who use guns, and throw away the key. But no. We don't do THAT, do we?

Slavery. A very messy issue, indeed: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1269536/The-Founding-Fathers-and-Slavery

But wonder of wonders, we dealt with that, and eventually fought each other over it. So, it is now in the past. Hopefully never forgotten, but neither is it something to dredge up, just to prove a point that is, in the present day, pointless. We are human, Founding Fathers and all. We make mistakes, and hopefully we learn from them.

The cell phone comparison? Is this discussion so filled with "logic" that we can't admit to strong feelings on the matter, on both sides of the issue? You did not refer to logic, you referred to technology. And made it seem like, just because the Second Amendment Right was tied to an inanimate object, it was of no worth. Why could I not apply "logic" towards the harm Free Speech and Religion has caused in the world? The violence and killing this causes. Have you not been paying attention to what ISIS is doing in the name of Religion? Or that what you say CAN get lead to you getting your head blown off... or, even in a Land Free of Firearms... could lead to someone strangling you to death for your words. I've had my fair share of religious "discussions" elsewhere, with people who argue that religion should be banned, also people who think Free Speech should be controlled by government.

Tell me, where does it all end?


I love being able to own firearms and I will fight tooth and nail against any movement to restrict that privilege...
It's not a "privilege." It's a Right. Something no one has the right to take from you. In any measure. Sorry I'm not going in more depth, but it seems I keep finding more posts to respond to, so I think it wise to let things settle.

But I have no problem with your feelings and opinions on the matter, because this issue is complex and indeed fraught with emotion. We could discuss this endlessly, and never come to an agreement. Or... we could agree to disagree, gun owner to gun owner.

And yes, I agree, we do need controls in place. I just believe those controls should focus on living, breathing people. Not on inanimate objects that are harmless in and of themselves. I just don't anthropomorphize tools. And yes, a gun is harmless, if left untouched. It's that human hand interface that makes it dangerous. Oh, and I take it you realize reasonable, law-abiding gun owners already take care of the whole issue of training and proper use? So, really, a "license" is just a governmental excuse to exert control of the law-abiding. Because they certainly don't seem able to control crime very well, do they?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: O|NoSoul
People are the problem, not guns.

And by people, Oliver's referring to those who simply yap on and on without actually looking at facts and proof that gun control does work. Y'know because, somebody would have taken that the wrong way.
 
Last edited:
The cell phone comparison? Is this discussion so filled with "logic" that we can't admit to strong feelings on the matter, on both sides of the issue? You did not refer to logic, you referred to technology.
No, a cell phone is not even remotely a logical comparison to a firearm.
Nobody credible has questioned Freedom of Speech, because it's not tied to a technology: It's tied to a fundamental element of human existence.
Please don't conflate my statements in such a way as to make them incredulous in nature. At no point did I claim that a cell phone is not technology, or that freedom of speech is a technology. Freedom of Speech is a concept. It's something we, as human beings, invented: Because we realized that the proliferation of ideas and voiced dissent does not harm another human being in a physical manner. Ergo, Freedom of Speech merely carries our thoughts into verbal and written conversation--words cannot murder you. Again: If you don't like the conversation at the other end of the cell phone, just end the phone call. If you don't like a conversation on the Internet, stop going to that part of the Internet. If someone harasses you at home, we have this concept called "harassment", it's a crime. So you have a safe place from other people's words if you don't want to hear them.

Ergo, to compare a cell phone to a firearm is a facetious tactic: Words cannot kill you. Guns are made specifically to kill things. Their entire purpose to exist is made to murder, that is the purpose of the tool. You fire at targets at a range to practice your accuracy. You murder animals to eat them. It enables one person to murder another person, with no effort, at long distance. Unless you beat someone to death with a cell phone, you're not likely to murder anyone with it.

Next time, please read what I've said. I'm not against firearms, I'm not against their existence: I sincerely believe every person should be able to own a firearm... Within reason. I think there needs to be gun control--not gun bans. I don't think gun control alone will solve all gun crime, but I think it would help in solving a portion of it... All statistics agree with it. Countries without gun control have higher rates of murder, countries with gun control have lower rates of murder.

If you don't believe me, just refer to my earlier post in which I link murder statistics. Australia is considered a violent country. It also has intense racism issues, same as America. It also has race crimes, same as America. It also has to deal with prolific amounts of smuggling, same as America. Yet, gun control being one of the primary differences, has reduced the amount of murders in the country overall, and nearly totally eliminated gun-related violence. To claim that gun control does nothing is so facetious, even a daytime television show with John Oliver on it can make that painfully clear.

Again. Just to make it absolutely clear: I'm not against firearms. I just acknowledge what they are. Just as I don't see the founding fathers as bad people: Just eminently flawed from a modern perspective because they sincerely put property rights over human rights for an entire ethnicity, to the point that slavery lasted for multiple generations, and there were people who were born slaves, and died slaves as a result of that.
 
People are the problem, not guns.

And by people, Oliver's referring to those who simply yap on and on without actually looking at facts and proof that gun control does work. Y'know because, somebody would have taken that the wrong way.
... and then we have this.

A small excerpt:

" In Australia today, police can enter your house and search for guns, copy the hard drive of your computer, seize records, and do it all without a search warrant. It's the law that police can go door to door searching for weapons that have not been surrendered in their much publicized gun buy back program. They have been using previous registration and firearm license lists to check for lapses and confiscate non-surrendered firearms."

Yes, I really think this is what we want in America. Or maybe not?
 
  • Like
Reactions: O|NoSoul
Yes, I really think this is what we want in America. Or maybe not?
Have you considered that the source is facetious and political in nature?

"Two years after the ban, there have been further increases in crime: armed robberies by 73 percent; unarmed robberies by 28 percent; kidnappings by 38 percent; assaults by 17 percent; manslaughter by 29 percent, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics."

Australian statistics disagrees with that sentiment. It's nowhere near a 73% increase, and over the past few years has been decreasing.

Please use more reliable source, like the government itself, rather than the people claiming to speak for it.
 
Please don't conflate my statements in such a way as to make them incredulous in nature. At no point did I claim that a cell phone is not technology, or that freedom of speech is a technology. Freedom of Speech is a concept.
So is the Freedom to Keep and Bear Arms, is it not?

And yes, words do indeed kill. I already provided a link to a story about a 12 year old boy killed by words. I also link to this.

So, I have to disagree. But thanks, you debate well. Oh, and this: "Within reason" by whose reasoning? Isn't this up to the individual to decide, and to take responsibility for, good or ill?


Please use more reliable source, like the government itself, rather than the people claiming to speak for it.
Oh... I should trust them, when they don't trust me? You see, this is what gets us in trouble in the first place. Remember, trust but verify. And yes, wouldn't hurt to find a better source, but that is what's out there. It's a question of who you believe.
 
So is the Freedom to Keep and Bear Arms, is it not?
No. No it's not. Because it's talking about a physical object: Arms, as in, firearms. Words are not physical objects.

I really cannot make this simpler if I tried: It is facetious to compare an incorporeal concept to physical objects. Leave alone physical objects that are made specifically to murder things.
And yes, words do indeed kill. I already provided a link to a story about a 12 year old boy killed by words. I also link to this.
#1: The 12 year old boy killed himself. Very specific difference: Suicide, while tragic, is not homicide. Again, conflating things.
#2: ... The Bible is not a good source to quote things when attempting to make an argument about law. I can do that too. If you work on a Sunday, you should be put to death.

Also, did you just quote the Bible... In a discussion about guns?
Oh... I should trust them, when they don't trust me?
Um... Because the government has no incentive to lie about statistics? Because there's multiple political parties that can do independent studies and would kill to get data that shows the ruling party in power is full of facetious fucktards lying about crime rates? Because your very own source attempted to claim government statistics without citation to verify itself?
It's a question of who you believe.
I'll believe the several hundred people who compiled statistics--any of whom would have the power to point out the government blatantly skewering statistics, seeing as how each one has access to at least a portion of the numbers--over the one guy with an obvious political agenda. I don't place blind faith in things. Yes, it's possible hundreds of people over several years have participated in a government conspiracy to black out the truth... Orrr... One guy is lying on the Internet to defend his political diatribe. :ferret:
 
"Words are not physical objects." But they are produced by a physical object... they are the equivalent of bullets fired out of a gun.

"Leave alone physical objects that are made specifically to murder things. Guns are not "magical" devices... bullets do no always kill. Guns also do not murder. Because murder implied intent, and intent cannot exist in an inanimate object.

"The 12 year old boy killed himself." Indeed he did, but, if not for the words, he'd still be alive.

"Because the government has no incentive to lie about statistics?" Says who? The government itself?

"...over the one guy with an obvious political agenda." And you believe Politicians don't have a "political" agenda?
 
But they are produced by a physical object... they are the equivalent of bullets fired out of a gun.
No, they really aren't. If I call someone a fucktard to their face, and that causes said person to jump off a bridge and commit suicide, no I don't get charged with murder. And that being an extreme case, most people might get a bit offended, but would ignore it.

If I walk up to someone and shoot them in the face with a firearm, yeah I go to court and jail afterwards. Because it's pretty hard for someone to ignore a bullet embedded in their face.
Guns are not "magical" devices... bullets do no always kill. Guns also do not murder. Because murder implied intent, and intent cannot exist in an inanimate object.
No guns do not murder people of their free will because they're inanimate. You know what their purpose is though? To kill things. That's what they're made to do. That's their purpose. That's why they were designed. Because people wanted to kill things at a distance and didn't want to use bows to do it anymore.
Indeed he did, but, if not for the words, he'd still be alive.
Or, you know the fact that most people don't kill themselves over harsh words and language?
Says who? The government itself?
Because getting caught lying about facts tends to be bad for any organization, political or otherwise? Not even organization, getting caught lying is bad?

Like, do you even read what you reply to or just ignore anything that isn't convenient for you?
Because there's multiple political parties that can do independent studies and would kill to get data that shows the ruling party in power is full of facetious fucktards lying about crime rates? Because your very own source attempted to claim government statistics without citation to verify itself?
I'll believe the several hundred people who compiled statistics--any of whom would have the power to point out the government blatantly skewering statistics, seeing as how each one has access to at least a portion of the numbers--over the one guy with an obvious political agenda.
 
When we say that guns are designed to kill people, it's worth pointing out that "killing people" is a very broad set of activities that vary in morality. I would say that all life has a right to protect itself (with lethal force if necessary). People have the right to build tools in order to do this.

Also, back to the car thing: Sports Cars are designed to go really fast, much faster than would ever be legal. Should they be illegal?
 
  • Thank You
Reactions: Roose Hurro
When we say that guns are designed to kill people, it's worth pointing out that "killing people" is a very broad set of activities that vary in morality. I would say that all life has a right to protect itself (with lethal force if necessary). People have the right to build tools in order to do this.
This is why I'm pro gun control. Gun control does not always take away people's guns. It doesn't even flatly ban all guns either.
Also, back to the car thing: Sports Cars are designed to go really fast, much faster than would ever be legal. Should they be illegal?
I don't know when cars came into this, but...
#1: Actually, there is such a thing as "street legal." There are cars which are legal to own but not legal to drive on streets specifically for this reason.

#2: You're comparing a device produced for transportation to a device made to end the lives of things with extreme efficiency. Either way, licensing should be a thing, and just as motor vehicles require progressively more specific licenses as they become progressively more specialized or exotic, so too should firearms licenses. If I require a license to drive a car, and there's a minimum age requirement for driving a car, and ingesting alcohol, there should be one for wielding an instant death stick too. :ferret:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hana
Zombehs... a person also doesn't get charged with murder for shooting someone in self-defense. As for the "purpose" of a gun? Just as a car's "purpose" is to transports you from point A to point B, a gun's "purpose" is to fire a bullet. Pure and simple. And yes, most people don't kill themselves... and most gun owners don't go around shooting people in the face. Aaand yes again, I do read... and listen. I don't know if you live in America, but I do, and our Politicians have a very long and well-known history of lying. As just one example, Obama's "promise" that "You can keep your doctor..." Oh, and the most recent lie: Hillary Clinton's claim that she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary, known for being the first to climb Mount Everest... even though he earned this "fame" six to seven years AFTER she was born. Just from what you have said, it seems I could ask you: "Have you read anything on the subject of Politics... or listened to what your Politicians are claiming? I believe I used the phrase "Trust, but verify." It seems all you've done is Trust.

But that is just my speculation on the matter.

#2: You're comparing a device produced for transportation to a device made to end the lives of things with extreme efficiency. Either way, licensing should be a thing, and just as motor vehicles require progressively more specific licenses as they become progressively more specialized or exotic, so too should firearms licenses. If I require a license to drive a car, and there's a minimum age requirement for driving a car, and ingesting alcohol, there should be one for wielding an instant death stick too. :ferret:
Funny you should say this, because there is:


"Who can buy a gun?:

According to federal law an individual may purchase a long gun (rifle or shotgun) at age 18 and a handgun at age 21, as long as the purchaser is not any of the following:
  • Anyone currently under indictment for a crime punishable by more than a year in prison
  • Anyone who has been previously convicted of such a crime
  • A fugitive
  • User of any controlled substance
  • Anyone who has been committed to a mental institution or deemed mentally defective
  • An illegal alien
  • Anyone who has been dishonorably discharged from the military
  • Anyone who has renounced his or her U.S. citizenship
  • Anyone who currently has a restraining order against him or her from an intimate partner or child of said partner
  • Anyone who has been convicted of a domestic violence misdemeanor"
 
  • Love
Reactions: Space Cowboy
Thus we enter another vicious circle of both sides locking horns on an age old debate since the conception of the firearm.

Seriously, these types of debates are tiresome and not very productive until a moderator has to finally lock the thread. I've seen this done a thousand times and the outcome are all the same.

My problem is the folks from Europe, Australia, Canada and other parts of the globe have this rather pretentious idea on how my country is "gun obsessed" and believe all the left-wing horror stories without reading between the lines. If it were up to me you would have no say-so on what should be done in my country and vice versa. What may work in Australia may not necessarily work as well in my country, although California maybe an exception. Different laws work with different societies and people, there is no 'one size fits all' one world government approach that many on the anti-gun side like to harp on at times. America has many problems yet so do other countries and many are the same problems. What makes America so sacrosanct to the issue of violence is guns is because our corporate media gets off putting it on the spotlight and only telling one side of the story.

Some gun control advocates go about it all wrong to attack the object and not the problem. I agree there needs to be a serious update on mental health factors towards the license processes to keep guns out of the hands of crazies just like you do with a vehicle. A common sense approach that fits the situation and not just this whole "ban all guns altogether" because as Americans we see it as a fundamental right to keep and bear firearms because our founders saw it as a deterrence from a tyrannical government. I do not expect someone from Finland, Australia or anywhere else for that matter to understand that.

The problem goes back to the fundamental understanding the gun is a double edged weapon. It is made to protect as it is to do harm to others. The object itself is not a single-minded instrument, it is the wielder who determines its instrumentation. It's been said many times before and I shall repeat it once more: Guns do not kill people, people kill people.

"Guns make it easier to kill people." Maybe so, but even if you take all the guns away you still have the fundamental problem of human nature. People kill and will find other ways to kill others besides with a gun. That's not a statistic or a political talking point, it is a hard fact of life. The issue is not the gun, it is a people issue. We should be asking "why do people kill" other than "do we need more gun control."
 
I think Kaddoc has said everything that needs to be said on the subject.
 
Gun control is fine and dandy, but people are missing out on one major factor. Most criminals are not getting their guns legally! Do you really think they care if more rules and regulations are put on owning/buying a gun? Hell no! They can rob a bank, get a few grand, and buy one from the guy down the street who doesn't care who he's selling it to.

What needs to happen is we need to stop giving criminals all these god damn rights, and give them actual punishments! If you kill someone with a gun, knife, or deadly force you should spend the rest of your life in prison, no fucking parole. Life in prison shouldn't have luxuries. There should be no cable TV, no computers, nothing. They should have to work to earn their food, and any sort of privileges, and whatever extra money they make should be given to their families, and if they don't have families of their own, families of the victims. Everyone says crime doesn't pay, but in the U.S it certainly does. In jail they don't have to worry about paying bills, or where their next meal is coming from, or even affording a trip to the doctors. They have little to no responsibilities, and once their sentence over and their slapped in the face with reality, they just want to go back in.

It's not gun control that's the issue, it's the criminal justice system that's failing.
YOU MUST BECOME PRESIDENT!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.