YouTubes Brown Coa... I mean Heroes!

[Gwazi Magnum]

So YouTube's now actively rewarding people to mass report videos, comments etc. Where anyone whose spent any amount of time on YouTube should know how easily abused such a thing is.

Personally I've already reported the video above to make a point of this.
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Issue reported: Hateful or abusive content > Abusing vulnerable individuals
Timestamp selected: 0:00
Additional details: This video is outright rewarding the masses to report anything they don't like. This will cause for unlawful take downs for all but the biggest of creators under YouTube's personal protection.​

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[Kitti]

I don't spend much time on Youtube, though I will say that in order to really be a pain in the ass, I think that people would have to play a long con to get to the phase where they can moderate content.
That said, I don't think it's a great idea, especially with youtube's "act first, ask later" tendencies.

But mostly, what I wanted to comment on was something that I found funny: the fact that they had the foresight to disable comments on the video. Okay youtube. Good starting vote of confidence in your community.

 

[IntrusivePenDesperateSword]

Oh no. OH NO.

Combine YouTube's fairly odd copyright- and advertising-friendliness laws, add a few ounces of its obnoxious community, then remove all borders. GENIUS!

Can't wait to see which site will take over once YT has fallen to ruins.

 

[Sidhe]

Oh no. OH NO.

Combine YouTube's fairly odd copyright- and advertising-friendliness laws, add a few ounces of its obnoxious community, then remove all borders. GENIUS!

Can't wait to see which site will take over once YT has fallen to ruins.

Honestly I doubt any. Some site will pop up and claim to be the perfect alternative to Youtube, and it'll play out just like Reddit and Voat did. Youtube will come out with some kind of compromise, people will forget what they were upset about, and the world will keep on spinning.

 

[Kagayours]

Yikes.

Does anyone remember Flipnote Hatena? That online service for DSi users where people could share content created with the Flipnote Studio app? Because that's what this reminds me of -- particularly the way that Flipnote Hatena was riddled with false reporters due to the fact that Hatena would give "colored stars" to reporters (which were otherwise pretty hard to get your hands on unless you were willing to spend real money -- and when your main demographic is kids who don't exactly have a disposable income... well...). And, similarly to Youtube, Hatena also had the issue of not having any real humans verifying any of the reports that came in -- so just about anything that was reported would go down, no matter how mundane or inoffensive it was.

Soooo I certainly can't imagine something similar going well for Youtube, especially given all of the problems that already exist with Youtube, and the fact that it is undoubtedly a much larger site than Hatena with a lot more riding on it.

Also, +2 bonus douche points for calling reporting bullies "heroes" and giving them the opportunity to be "rewarded" with even more reporting/flagging power. What the fuck.

 

[Hatsune Candy]

Um, maybe I'm missing something here, but I honestly don't think this isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. YouTube is trying their best to fix the problems with their current system. YouTube Heroes ain't perfect (for one it's a really stupid name) and it could definitely use some improvements, but I certainly think it's a step in the right direction. I mean, it'll finally give everyday users the opportunity to contact YouTube staff directly, that's a pretty huge deal. You won't need to already have connections with the people who work there or be a big YouTube star in order to get in contact with them anymore (hopefully).

One of the biggest problems with YouTube's current system is that, for the most part, it's fully automated, all reports are managed by a fucking algorithm and there's no one watching over it in case anything goes wrong; thus it's extremely easy to abuse with little to no consequence. At least this way, people will get more of a say in what happens on or to the site. Yes, of course there are still gonna be people who try to abuse the system, you all act as if there was ever not going to be.

 

[Kagayours]

Um, maybe I'm missing something here, but I honestly don't think this isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. YouTube is trying their best to fix the problems with their current system. YouTube Heroes ain't perfect (for one it's a really stupid name) and it could definitely use some improvements, but I certainly think it's a step in the right direction. I mean, it'll finally give everyday users the opportunity to contact YouTube staff directly, that's a pretty huge deal. You won't need to already have connections with the people who work there or be a big YouTube star in order to get in contact with them anymore (hopefully).

One of the biggest problems with YouTube's current system is that, for the most part, it's fully automated, all reports are managed by a fucking algorithm and there's no one watching over it in case anything goes wrong; thus it's extremely easy to abuse with little to no consequence. At least this way, people will get more of a say in what happens on or to the site. Yes, of course there are still gonna be people who try to abuse the system, you all act as if there was ever not going to be.

I think the problem comes more from the fact that people are being given incentive to abuse the system. People are being rewarded for reporting stuff. I really don't see how that's supposed to fix most of Youtube's problems -- it just means you'll get even more unfair reporting for copyright stuff as well as really anything else. And the people who can contact Youtube staff are the people who are doing the reporting and becoming "heroes". That means that the power still lies with the reporters, as opposed to the people being reported, who will now probably have even less power to defend themselves with. Yes, Youtube's fully automated report system is a problem, because it means that people can be reported for fucking anything and are essentially guilty until proven innocent, and then have virtually no means by which to prove themselves innocent. This heroes system doesn't give content creators any more sway in defending themselves, unless they decide to go on reporting sprees to rack up points, but I feel like that would be rather tedious for them, even if they're only reporting content that deserves it. Making it so that the only people who have access to real people at Youtube are the ones doing the reporting really just feels like more of a step backwards.

Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole "contact Youtube staff" thing is completely bunk anyway. Content creators who are hit with reports technically have ways to contact Youtube staff -- or at least, they're told that they do -- but that process is also completely automated. I wouldn't be surprised if even the "heroes" get minimal opportunities to be heard by a real person, if any.

And I don't think either scenario is a really good thing. We either get a system that's not only just as abusable but even gives people incentive to falsely report videos without any human Youtube employees overseeing it, or we get that same incentive-to-abuse system but with the ability to talk to actual Youtube staffers being given to those who already have more power than the content creators who still have almost no chance to defend themselves.

 

[Hatsune Candy]

I think the problem comes more from the fact that people are being given incentive to abuse the system. People are being rewarded for reporting stuff. I really don't see how that's supposed to fix most of Youtube's problems -- it just means you'll get even more unfair reporting for copyright stuff as well as really anything else.

But, like, if you watch the video, it literally says that you gain points only for reporting negative content, not any content. When you report a video, YouTube has to actually analyse the video to make sure it's not a false report. I'd like to imagine that YouTube is smart enough to only reward points to the reports that are actually justified.

Yes, Youtube's fully automated report system is a problem, because it means that people can be reported for fucking anything and are essentially guilty until proven innocent, and then have virtually no means by which to prove themselves innocent.

Eh, actually, the problem more so lies in the copyright strike system, where anyone can file a copyright claim, the video is processed by a algo and it pretty much gets instantly removed. To get it back, the creator has to appeal the claim, which takes forever because it means a human being has to actually look at the video (the horror), and all the while the creator is missing out on potential revenue. When it comes to reporting videos that break the community guidelines it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue, probably because people are more likely to falsely report a video than file a false copyright claim so the system has to be more fleshed out (at least, that's my best guess).

Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole "contact Youtube staff" thing is completely bunk anyway. Content creators who are hit with reports technically have ways to contact Youtube staff -- or at least, they're told that they do -- but that process is also completely automated. I wouldn't be surprised if even the "heroes" get minimal opportunities to be heard by a real person, if any.

Eh, well you got me there, one can only hope that doesn't become the case. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, though.

 

[Kagayours]

But, like, if you watch the video, it literally says that you gain points only for reporting negative content, not any content. When you report a video, YouTube has to actually analyse the video to make sure it's not a false report. I'd like to imagine that YouTube is smart enough to only reward points to the reports that are actually justified.

Eh, somehow I doubt that'll actually happen.

Eh, well you got me there, one can only hope that doesn't become the case. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, though.

I'm not. Not with their track record, anyway.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

But, like, if you watch the video, it literally says that you gain points only for reporting negative content, not any content. When you report a video, YouTube has to actually analyse the video to make sure it's not a false report. I'd like to imagine that YouTube is smart enough to only reward points to the reports that are actually justified.

If they weren't doing that before what reason is there to think they'll do it now? If anything this system is an indication of the reverse, YouTube wanting the community to deal with that stuff so they don't have to. Like really what their doing is getting new employees to manage content. Except instead of paying them, they give them 'points' and a gold star for being a 'hero'.

In other words, this seems like if China's work laws had a baby with a Kindergarten "Everyone's special" curriculum.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

And here's some YouTubers commenting on the matter.

 

[Hatsune Candy]

If they weren't doing that before what reason is there to think they'll do it now? If anything this system is an indication of the reverse, YouTube wanting the community to deal with that stuff so they don't have to. Like really what their doing is getting new employees to manage content. Except instead of paying them, they give them 'points' and a gold star for being a 'hero'.

In other words, this seems like if China's work laws had a baby with a Kindergarten "Everyone's special" curriculum.

300 hours of video are uploaded to YouTube every minute. Even for a big corporation that's a lot to manage, they're just trying their best to spread out the load by getting the community involvement. It may not be the greatest idea, but hey, nobody's perfect.

Honestly, I'm just playing devil's advocate, trying to get people to see things from YouTube's point of view since they seem rather hesitant to do so.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

300 hours of video are uploaded to YouTube every minute. Even for a big corporation that's a lot to manage, they're just trying their best to spread out the load by getting the community involvement. It may not be the greatest idea, but hey, nobody's perfect.

Honestly, I'm just playing devil's advocate, trying to get people to see things from YouTube's point of view since they seem rather hesitant to do so.

I understand YouTube's perspective on this. But the mistake/assumption they're making is just so elementary I'm having trouble believing they actually approved this idea.

Like, they're literally handing power to mass report over to the same people who caused the false flagging issue to begin with...
Just... How? >.<

 

[Dervish]

Ah, my bi-monthly YouTube drama. I was worried we'd go more than a few weeks without something else clogging my YouTube subscription page.

Long story short, I really don't care. This effects uploaders, not really a casual viewer. The moment I'll start taking some form of concern is if channels I follow start getting shut down. Even if that happens, I'll probably muster a "well, this sucks" and go find something else to do with the time that freed up.

 

[Shiri]

The title fooled me into thinking there was something new with Firefly.

If there's an incentive system then there ought to be a punishment system. Whistleblowers are great weapons, but there must be a way to keep them in check or there's no point in having the option. Maybe after so many false reports there's a suspension? There is at least a training system that seems to be in there. Perhaps they are setting really high goals to weed the trolls out? Its hard to say with such a vague trailer.

If they do go through with this I hope they change the name to something less...awkward.

 

[Vars]

Once again a huge dramafest over nothing.

"Points" get rewarded for certain actions, gain enough points and gain levels to access more/better tools, etc., etc. Mass flagging isn't even a thing until level 3. If you are going to try and maliciously collect points to gain access to that feature you're going for the long con.

A human being behind Youtube reviews flags. A video being flagged enough times doesn't mean it's going to be taken down. [1, 2] If someone is just going around flagging a bunch of videos that don't need to be flagged, I'm sure Youtube will either revoke that person's flagging priveledges, stop accrual of points for flagging, and/or funnel flags from malicious users into a much lower priority review pool. To think Youtube doesn't know or care about abusive flaggers is just absurd.

Furthermore, this program just seems like an expansion of a program that already exists, and has existed for some time: The Trusted Flagger Program. It works, why not expand it.

People complain about how Youtube doesn't have enough staff or oversight or whatever, well, Youtube is solving that. There is no way they'd have enough manpower to review everything that's uploaded all the time and to expect them to employ such a number of people and remain in business is laughable. What's also laughable is the renouncing of Youtube for using "free labor."

How is what Youtube is doing different from almost every single internet community ever? Take Iwaku, for instance. Users don't get paid for reporting posts that violate the rules. Users don't get paid to be a part of the moderation team. Everyone is a volunteer. If you don't want to do it, then don't. Nobody's forcing you, and nobody's forcing Youtubers to participate in the Heroes program.

Frankly, I'm a little more concerned people will start making captions that just don't make sense than this "mass flagging." If you think people didn't mass flag before this program was announced then I think we should look for the sharper knives in the drawer.

 

[Kagayours]

How is what Youtube is doing different from almost every single internet community ever? Take Iwaku, for instance. Users don't get paid for reporting posts that violate the rules. Users don't get paid to be a part of the moderation team. Everyone is a volunteer. If you don't want to do it, then don't. Nobody's forcing you, and nobody's forcing Youtubers to participate in the Heroes program.

Well for starters, Iwaku isn't rewarding people for submitting reports. I imagine people might be a bit more eager to do so if that was the case. o_o"

And I honestly can't even think of that many other internet communities that do give people any kind of exclusive perks just for reporting content. The only other thing that comes to mind is, as mentioned, Flipnote Hatena -- and it really didn't work out very well for them.

 

[Vars]

@Kagayours
I'd assume reporting a lot of threads here (that are worth reporting) would make you look a lot better if you applied to moderator. Same fashion.

For maybe a better breakdown of the system I guess Gaia would work. Normal user reporting stuff > Looks good when you apply to "Forum Assistant" (gives you ability move threads, but nothing else). Do well as a Forum Assistant > Very good path to becoming global mod > Omni Mod.

Everything is there in all these communities, it is just not publicized. I am not familiar Flipnote.

EDIT:

This isn't really in reply to you specifically, but I wanted to not doublepost.

Additionally, here are how the points get divvied up.
Earn points with YouTube Heroes - YouTube Help
Which makes it clear it's not an automatic reward. There is a review of the flag.

YouTube Heroes Program Rules - YouTube Help
Says it right there: "B. POINTS ACCRUAL.

Each YouTube Hero who is in compliance with these Rules will be able to earn points for every qualifying contribution to YouTube (such as accurately flagging inappropriate videos), that is verifiable and organic, and not gamed, improperly received or otherwise in violation of these Rules, including the YouTube Community Guidelines (each a "Qualifying Contribution"). We will determine each qualifying Contribution. "

And remember when I mentioned earlier about abusive flaggers not counting as much? Turns out I was right:
"3. Any abuse of the point system, the Program, or other violative behavior, may reduce the points accrued in your program account and/or restrict or prohibit any aspect of your participation in the Program."

Further, here's how the levels play out: Unlock rewards with YouTube Heroes - YouTube Help

Finally, this isn't something that "just happens." You have to actively seek out and apply to the Heroes program to begin accumulating points. While that won't completely stop malicious people, it definitely mitigates a lot.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

A human being behind Youtube reviews flags. A video being flagged enough times doesn't mean it's going to be taken down. [1, 2] If someone is just going around flagging a bunch of videos that don't need to be flagged, I'm sure Youtube will either revoke that person's flagging priveledges, stop accrual of points for flagging, and/or funnel flags from malicious users into a much lower priority review pool. To think Youtube doesn't know or care about abusive flaggers is just absurd.

Furthermore, this program just seems like an expansion of a program that already exists, and has existed for some time: The Trusted Flagger Program. It works, why not expand it.

Frankly, I'm a little more concerned people will start making captions that just don't make sense than this "mass flagging." If you think people didn't mass flag before this program was announced then I think we should look for the sharper knives in the drawer.

A lot of this boils down to one thing, "Actions VS Words". I'm of the stance that YouTubes actions have very consistently proven their ability to make sure flags are legit are practically non-existent. Where of course as a company their going to claim everything will be monitored as tracked, what PR branch wouldn't say that? But their word just holds no weight, it's like hearing Kojima say they're willing to innovate, Digital Homicide saying they care about consumers, Gareth claiming No Man's Sky has features, Apple saying their innovating when they force you to buy more of their stuff, me saying that I'll no longer shit post etc.

How is what Youtube is doing different from almost every single internet community ever? Take Iwaku, for instance. Users don't get paid for reporting posts that violate the rules. Users don't get paid to be a part of the moderation team. Everyone is a volunteer. If you don't want to do it, then don't. Nobody's forcing you, and nobody's forcing Youtubers to participate in the Heroes program.

There's several differences though.

1. Like @Kagayours mentioned, we don't get rewarded for reporting people.

2. Staff are selected by a human/owl/not a cat rationally thinking and deciding if someone would make a good Staff Member or not. YouTube allows points to build up and then the promotion would be automatic upon reaching a certain milestone. And given YouTubes track record, we have no reason to believe those points are being given out by a human and not being automated.

3. Iwaku is not a giant company. Like seriously, Iwaku relies on donations to make a 100$ monthly payment. Diana herself, the effective CEO on Iwaku doesn't even get paid for her work. YouTube Staff do though, cause it's their living. And now they're taking jobs that would be handled by paid employees and manipulating people into do it for free, where their perks for doing so is doing even more work and eventually being test subjects alpha testers.

"Points" get rewarded for certain actions, gain enough points and gain levels to access more/better tools, etc., etc. Mass flagging isn't even a thing until level 3. If you are going to try and maliciously collect points to gain access to that feature you're going for the long con.

Yes, but when you're dealing with trolls on the Internet? And a System that all evidence suggests will be automated? You're going to get a good amount of people be willing to grind up that XP so to speak in other to then go wild. And even if the tool ends up being shit, they're still being held up as some paragon of internet virtue for what is basically online bullying.

Finally, this isn't something that "just happens." You have to actively seek out and apply to the Heroes program to begin accumulating points. While that won't completely stop malicious people, it definitely mitigates a lot.

Only if they're investing man power into it.

If they're not, this is likely just checking for the account having no rule violations, which is very easy to work around.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

All right @everyone...

Oh wait, right. I don't have the ability to mass annoy people on Iwaku (Hint! Hint! YouTube!).

Anyways, here's some updates!

I didn't even realise that YouTube went back and re-uploaded the video. o_o
God damn those sneaky sons of bitches.