Realization: Gender Performance

[☆Luna☆]

So, I'm just going to say thank you for such a thoughtful response. It is kinda awesome that you take the time to find scholarly articles just to respond to me. I more or less just respond with the information that is top of mind with a few of my own personal observations thrown in the mix. All the information is a great resource for a deeper understanding of the subject. But, just so you know, you didn't come up as confrontational at all, and I'm 100% with you there on the jargon, that really needs to stop.

I am slightly confused by the way you word your questions. Please bear with me, and if my tone comes across as confrontational, I am not deliberately being so.

I bring up a lot of different areas to make my third response, and you definitely address and expand on those points.

The OP originally just means to state that the existing need for to understand sex through gender might be reinforcing heteronormitivity. However, in response to comments, I've been made to describe in further detail the process in which this happens.

To make this point in my expanded response, I introduce the concepts of normalcy, deviancy, the utility of an established normal gender performance which is in binary with sex, and lastly how this normal potentially limits who people choose to have sexual relations with. Hopefully that clarifies the framework of my reasoning, I think it answers a lot of the questions you present.

Physical attraction may be needed to start courtship, but it is certainly not the most important by far in a relationship - research has shown that we find our partners more beautiful and more endearing over time.

This is absolutely what I'm talking about though. Being able to initiate courtship is extremely important. While there are many people like you who want to work past the limitations of the system, the fact that effort must be put forward to get to the ideal outcome shows the dysfunction. In many cases, people don't even realize that it is something to be worked past, or understand the consequences of continuing on without adapting.

Is it gender performing to be physically attractive? If one gender performs as a physically attractive person, then it is possible that there will be negative consequences because the person who is attracted has a clear biological expectation (post-op discussion excluded). However, there are far less extreme cases of gender performance, like stereotypical macho men, effeminate men, tomboys, princesses, etc. where the gender performance really does not affect physical attraction. Therefore, it seems that there is some sort of line drawn when gender performance encroaches on the territory of physical attraction.

And this question is also fascinating. Gender performance is in some cases done to assert in which way they might be found attractive, but it is also many other roles. All I can really say here is that there is a lot to learn about why people do the gender they do. I don't claim to understand it, I just understand enough to have a discussion. Thank you for bringing this up.

 

[unanun]

As for why, about 3.5% of people in the US declare LGBT. The low prevalence rate simply suggests that not many of us ever have to deal with such a grey-zone situation in our lives. Most of us will live and die by the binaries. I myself never thought deeply about how I would handle a potential advance from a transgender person, or if they were gender performing, or if they were post-op, etc, etc.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, I'm not suggesting any action, I'm just stating that sometimes in a relationship, people value a particular gender performance.

I realize you're not actually suggesting any action. :P

When I say stuff like "Are you asking if getting rid of such a thing ______" I'm asking hypothetically.

In my case, I want to date someone who not only is female, but has a female gender performance(not they can't have masculine traits, but just mostly female). By limiting gender to only combinations that match sex, it might be the case that you are also limiting the possible number of ways that people can sexually target.

So, because say for example that women are expected to act feminine that it might make it harder to find masculine women? Or that one can't look at base mannerisms to evaluate a potential date because it shows nothing other than what they're expected to act as?

All. I'm not really asking anything so much as I am presenting information to let you come to your own conclusion.

Noted.

1. I'm not sure if I'd like to get rid of a gender-sex binary, but I would rather enjoy people looking at gender as a continuum that doesn't always correspond to sex.

In other words, don't judge/expect certain behaviors due to the persons genitalia?

2. Actually, no. If you are attracted to the other sex, that probably isn't going to change. However, I do believe that the term heterosexual would become more broad because it would include feminine men attracted to women, and masculine women attracted to men.

I thought that's how it already worked though.
Sexuality to my knowledge have always addressed the biological sexes, not gender identities.

Well, at least the main ones of: Heterosexual, Bisexual, Homosexual, Pansexual and Asexual.
That distinction tends to blur once you dig deeper into the more obscure ones.

3. Well, I think there has always been more to it. There was a day in human history where all that mattered was you had the ability to reproduce with an individual, but now it is different. For each person, there are countless traits which are significant in a relationship. Maybe you value certain activities, a particular religion, a certain political view, physical features, personalities, fetishes, and the list goes on. All I'm really saying is that gender is also a consideration that is fairly sizable for a lot of people, and the current system seems to suggest that sex and gender should always the same thing(which they aren't). It can even be seen in the English language that the words for describing gender and sex are all the same words. Sex: Boy or Girl, Male or Female Gender: Boy or Girl, Male or Female.

So being attracted to a certain Gender might make such things difficult, because the gender might not match with cultural expectations?

Like for a personal example.
I've found that I've been gaining a stronger attraction overtime to more Masculine women, but because society expects women to be feminine this can lead to some issues.

Most of us will live and die by the binaries. I myself never thought deeply about how I would handle a potential advance from a transgender person, or if they were gender performing, or if they were post-op, etc, etc.

Funny enough, even though I'm a straight guy I've been hit on by more men than women. :P

 

[AetherDream]

As for why, about 3.5% of people in the US declare LGBT. The low prevalence rate simply suggests that not many of us ever have to deal with such a grey-zone situation in our lives. Most of us will live and die by the binaries. I myself never thought deeply about how I would handle a potential advance from a transgender person, or if they were gender performing, or if they were post-op, etc, etc.

I've actually found myself in this situation once in my life about a year and a half ago. The person in question and I were pretty good friends and then one day she started asking me, "How would you feel if you really liked someone, like really liked their personality but then found out she was born a man?" I didn't know how to answer her at first and as such, expressed my difficulty surrounding the question. The more she pressed the matter, the more i began to realize that she was asking for a very specific reason. Ultimately I had to tell her that I would be unable to pursue a relationship with someone who had gone through that transition. I felt pretty bad about my response at the time and still do, but personally, there's just something that stops me at that point. She hasn't spoken to me since then.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

I've actually found myself in this situation once in my life about a year and a half ago. The person in question and I were pretty good friends and then one day she started asking me, "How would you feel if you really liked someone, like really liked their personality but then found out she was born a man?" I didn't know how to answer her at first and as such, expressed my difficulty surrounding the question. The more she pressed the matter, the more i began to realize that she was asking for a very specific reason. Ultimately I had to tell her that I would be unable to pursue a relationship with someone who had gone through that transition. I felt pretty bad about my response at the time and still do, but personally, there's just something that stops me at that point. She hasn't spoken to me since then.

Don't let yourself feel bad about that.
No one controls what they're attracted to, beating yourself up for it is really no different than someone shaming themselves for their own sexuality.

I say you did the right thing by being honest and straight forward with what your reaction would be, avoiding future drama/misunderstandings that could have happened by trying to dodge the question or sugar coat around it.

 

[☆Luna☆]

As for why, about 3.5% of people in the US declare LGBT. The low prevalence rate simply suggests that not many of us ever have to deal with such a grey-zone situation in our lives. Most of us will live and die by the binaries. I myself never thought deeply about how I would handle a potential advance from a transgender person, or if they were gender performing, or if they were post-op, etc, etc.

I will point out that the number declared and actually are likely different numbers, but yeah, this fact is accounted for in the norm generating model I present, as gender-sex binary typically goes completely unchalenged in the developmental phases.

I realize you're not actually suggesting any action. :P

When I say stuff like "Are you asking if getting rid of such a thing ______" I'm asking hypothetically.

Noted

So, because say for example that women are expected to act feminine that it might make it harder to find masculine women? Or that one can't look at base mannerisms to evaluate a potential date because it shows nothing other than what they're expected to act as?

Yes, but I would like to clarify. Some forms of gender performance are more acceptable to cross-circuit than others, and which ones those are vary based on the culture.

Noted.

In other words, don't judge/expect certain behaviors due to the persons genitalia?

Basically.

I thought that's how it already worked though.
Sexuality to my knowledge have always addressed the biological sexes, not gender identities.

Well, at least the main ones of: Heterosexual, Bisexual, Homosexual, Pansexual and Asexual.
That distinction tends to blur once you dig deeper into the more obscure ones.

Well, yes, but I'm referring more to what the typical image associated with heterosexual. If I asked someone in America to draw a heterosexual pairing, they will likely show a girl in a dress and a boy in something else.

So being attracted to a certain Gender might make such things difficult, because the gender might not match with cultural expectations?

Like for a personal example.
I've found that I've been gaining a stronger attraction overtime to more Masculine women, but because society expects women to be feminine this can lead to some issues.

Yeah, that is more or less the effect I'm talking about.

Funny enough, even though I'm a straight guy I've been hit on by more men than women. :P

Well that is because you are fabulous.

I've actually found myself in this situation once in my life about a year and a half ago. The person in question and I were pretty good friends and then one day she started asking me, "How would you feel if you really liked someone, like really liked their personality but then found out she was born a man?" I didn't know how to answer her at first and as such, expressed my difficulty surrounding the question. The more she pressed the matter, the more i began to realize that she was asking for a very specific reason. Ultimately I had to tell her that I would be unable to pursue a relationship with someone who had gone through that transition. I felt pretty bad about my response at the time and still do, but personally, there's just something that stops me at that point. She hasn't spoken to me since then.

Please don't feel bad. This is the kind of effect that happens when you grow up with particular cultural expectations, but that doesn't make you a bad person. Who you are able to be sexually attracted to is largely about how you grow up, and it has to do with far more than just sex and gender. Don't blame yourself for who you are, cause I've been around you enough to know you are awesome. That just isn't your thing, you aren't comfortable with it in the way that I'm not comfortable with a number of fetishes. I think it is just important to know how we are what we are, and work so future generations can grow up with understanding that we simply don't have.

It was very brave of you to be able to tell her that, so don't feel bad, but don't lose that empathy.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, yes, but I'm referring more to what the typical image associated with heterosexual. If I asked someone in America to draw a heterosexual pairing, they will likely show a girl in a dress and a boy in something else.

Oh yea. :/
That is definitely still prevalent in modern culture.

Well that is because you are fabulous.

*Self Ego Levels Up*