Philosophy

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FILOZOPHEEEEHH!
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Apparently becoming frustrated with someone is grounds to walk away from an argument and never resolve it. I'm only human. My viewpoints have never changed this entire discussion, but I have searched for more efficient and concise ways to express myself. I'm not das ubermensch o_o.
M-M-Marxist theory was replaced by better stuff... as was Freudian theory and most of what Plato said.... They haven't remained intact. They've been disassembled and stripped for parts and carried through into other philosophies.
I'm not so sure about that. Let's take it case by case.

Marxism exists so long as people believe in it. There is an entire spectrum of socialists who will argue with you on that. What nations adopt as an ideology depends on the current societal sentiment of the people, which is dependent on technological uptake to a large (but not complete) degree. For example, compare the political spectrum of 1st world countries to developing to 3rd world. They tend to range from moderate to capitalist/laissez-faire to anarchy-dictatorship-censorship.

Freudian was dismissed because he was able to make falsifiable claims. Psychology and social sciences frequently dance at the very edge of what is testable, which is why psych studies in general are so open to interpretation and can only hope to give us general guidelines into the mind (hopefully neuroscience helps here). I say they are on the edge because their observables are very subject to debate. Whereas in physics, speed is speed is speed.

As for Plato, I'm sure his stuff is kicking around somewhere. Like the guy in the paper I linked said, the fact that his works are still considered important in the exact form written shows that there is discussion to be had about his view point. In contrast, no one reads Einstein's works anymore. Better derivations and more pedagogical explanations have come about. All that matters is that his idea persisted, not the exact form in which he wrote it down.
Does science lead to civil rights upheavals? Does it bring emancipation? Does it redefine morality? No - that's philosophy. And in the redefining of culture we expand the width and depth of the widgetosphere.
I think this is where I would argue with you on two points:

- What produced all this division of rights in the first place? You could argue that philosophy itself did that, especially religious philosophy stemming from a lack of education and knowledge of physical law. The point is, it is entirely possible that a thousand years in the future society has 'regressed' to a state where all-pervasive state control is accepted as philosophical truth of governance. We just happen to be living in 'good' times.

- Technological uptake absolutely leaves to upheavals, but where they go is not up to science. Printing press - education. Gunpowder - the common soldier trumps the knight. Mechanization - freeing many people from serfdom. Industrialization - concentrating people in cities that arguably leads to increased productivity. Internet - freedom of information. And so on ... I am not convinced that philosophy was able to a) use the disruptive revolutions to catalyze social change, and b) could have predicted such a thing would have happened. For example, the in vogue philosophical assignment of human value has changed remarkably with history. View points have not been squashed; they just multiply and adapt according to whatever policy some statesman wants to use to dupe his populace.
 
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I am trying to convince you of my viewpoint - why would it change? I have tried to be the most polite, and I have apologized if my attempts at communication have come off wrong. Yet I have been said to be 'redefining terms with wanton abandon,' even as I try to explain to why I interpret definitions that way, just as you are steadfast in your interpretation. You are projecting your frustration with my inadequate communication skills onto my viewpoint and my person, and using that to dismiss my viewpoint as something not worth discussing. There's probably a name for that somewhere. Some logical fallacy you guys keep quoting me on.

The very fact that I continue to remain means that I respect - although disagree with - your opinion enough to keep talking about it.

My attempt at redefining the discussion unambiguously:

Measurable philosophy converges towards a single viewpoint, and in the context of physical sciences, gives us a clearer view of - and increasing mastery of - nature over time.

Other philosophy never converges to a single viewpoint. It is subjective and no opinion is demonstrably false. Thus we are doomed to debate about other philosophy forever, and whatever trickles down into society just happens to be whatever is in vogue with current social context.


Was resoundingly flippantly dismissed. I can only thank Asmodeus for respecting me enough to keep talking with me o_o.
 
Who cares if my viewpoint remains unchanging o_o? We are trying to show which one is false (let us avoid true, since you don't like that idea of certainty ...) regardless of horrible a person I am.

Let us assume an infinitely kind and reasonable gentleman advances the idea to you that philosophy does not produce falsifiable points of view. That is his opinion. How do you respond?
 
regardless of horrible a person I am.
I didn't call you a horrible person. You're making assumptions about my opinion, my state of mind in how I consider you, when I explicitly stated ages ago...
I'm... Honestly not sure we can have a discussion on equal ground here, when our perspectives are obviously so far flung from each other that I appear to be speaking Spanish to you, and you appear to be speaking Mandarin to me. We're just not translating at all, so I'll politely leave you with the last word if you should so choose to have it, and be merrily on my way.
My reaction was confusion because my attempts to explain the subject to you were deflected by stating that the words I was using were impossible to measure in some objective manner. First it was progress, which I debunked. Then it was superiority, which I didn't bother with continuing because it was plain and obvious that, again, as I said before...
Now, before someone jumps on me for proclaiming Viewpoint Nazism or some other absurdity: No, I don't necessarily think Unanun is wrong. He could very well be making a great point and I'm just not capable of seeing it with my current set of beliefs and practices
You and I are never going to see eye to eye on this. Why? Because...
Who cares if my viewpoint remains unchanging o_o?
Your viewpoint is never going to change, and your argument (which you've repeated several times) is not satisfactory to me compared to the evidence of the psychological impact philosophy has had both on the collective of humanity and on the individual. I've made this clear, repeatedly, but you're not going to bother to listen, because...
I am trying to convince you of my viewpoint - why would it change?
You're not out to have a discussion, you're here exclusively to prove that you are right. Well, this isn't a classroom setting, and I'm not your pupil. I didn't come to this thread to be told what to think and how to feel and what to believe, I came to have a discussion. Part of being a good debater is knowing when your opponent is never going to budge from their position no matter how much logic and reason you throw in their path, no matter how you argue. You're never going to change your views in this thread--you've stated this in black and white. So why should I continue to discuss this content with you? So that you can continue to echo chamber a philosophical view I don't agree with?

It's not disrespectful to walk away from a discussion when it's going nowhere fruitful. It's disrespectful to point at people who walk away. Especially when after pages of debate, the only thing he can respond with is...
Let us assume an infinitely kind and reasonable gentleman advances the idea to you that philosophy does not produce falsifiable points of view. That is his opinion. How do you respond?
Really? We've debated with you for pages on this, and your only response is to paint yourself out as this victim who hasn't gotten an answer?

This is why I walked away. This is why others are walking away. You don't hold discussions, you hold seminars. Pastor, I ain't liking the message you're selling, so I'm walking out of your church instead of lighting it on fire, ya dig?
 
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Really? We've debated with you for pages on this, and your only response is to paint yourself out as this victim who hasn't gotten an answer?
The gentleman isn't me. It's a hypothetical person who wishes to talk to you. I am trying to divorce the viewpoint I am holding from myself, so you can't find reason to dismiss the viewpoint based upon my character. We have spent a long while getting to the essence of the argument. I am not a perfect representation of the falsification viewpoint, or the 'no-progress' one. But I have finally chanced upon a preferable statement of the problem.

For all your effort to find reason to dismiss me, you have still yet to answer the question:

Does philosophy produce falsifiable viewpoints?
 
The gentleman isn't me. It's a hypothetical person who wishes to talk to you.
The hypothetical person is you, and it's a paper-thin veil really, but I'm glad you're ignoring the rest of what I said again.

Also.
Does philosophy produce falsifiable viewpoints?
The problem is that the definition of superior in and of itself is nebulous
I'd like to see you pick an arguing point and stick to it.

Anyway, yes, philosophy can produce falsifiable viewpoints. Like this one. Easily proven wrong.

If you're looking for an answer about philosophical views on concepts like the purpose to life, no, because it's a belief. Beliefs aren't useless, however, as beliefs drive a person towards a goal and act as a compass for a person's views on the world, life, and their place in it.
 
For all your effort to find reason to dismiss me, you have still yet to answer the question:

Does philosophy produce falsifiable viewpoints?

Every time someone answers you, and that answer doesn't conform to what you think, you redefine and change the topic of discussion to better guide things towards your way of thinking. Continuously retconning the discussion to better suit your needs only serves to aggravate people and show that you're not looking for a discussion; you're looking for people to agree with you. And those are two very different goals.
 
To answer your question.

Let us assume an infinitely kind and reasonable gentleman advances the idea to you that philosophy does not produce falsifiable points of view. That is his opinion. How do you respond?
I say, "You are absolutely right. Nothing is falsifiable."

That is, assuming we're talking in a no-context situation. Once we start setting boundaries that we can work with, then yes, it can be falsifiable. The same goes for science, just in case you were planning on countering with that. Without predefined boundaries, it is not falsifiable.

The boundaries may seem automatic to you. But that does not mean they do not exist.
 
No, it actually isn't. I already said I wasn't perfect, so the, uh, lady (still not satisfied?) represents an agreeable person who would like to talk about this with you. That way you can't use my disagreeable personality as an excuse to dismiss my viewpoint. For the sake of discussion I acknowledge you have seen through my thinly veiled attempt at playing the victim. You've outplayed me. Let's move on to more interesting topics, because the last page is descending dangerously close to name calling. From now on, I'll stick to the meat of the discussion.

Moving on ...
I'd like to see you pick an arguing point and stick to it.
One thing at a time. There is a clear order to this process, one follows logically from the prior. Let us first settle on whether philosophy makes falsifiable viewpoints.

(The next step would be then to pontificate about whether progress means a contraction or expansion of viewpoints. On that we may never agree.)

Easily proven wrong.

Jewish people, who are by far and away the nobel prize carriers in science, are white. How is white supremacy wrong?

Let me qualify this outrageous statement: had Germany in the 1930's marshaled its military properly, you may be growing up thinking that Aryans are a master race and there would be mountains of philosophical work with pseudoscience (skull measurements and all that junk) to back it up - in fact, all of those things existed and convinced a number of people - and still do. You say 'of course white supremacy is wrong', but there is an alternate reality where humanity totally believes it is true.

You must learn to divorce your idea of something that is 'obviously wrong' from present social context. If you were an unfortunate chap growing up in 1930's Germany, you would have done your damnedest to convince me of Aryan philosophy. In fact, if you were born in the middle east right now, it is quite possible you may have been cajoled into blowing yourself up or chopping someone's head off. The mere possibility that these things could have occurred should go a long way against your argument that '[x] supremacy' (white, islamic, asian, japanese, aryan supremacy .. all equivalent viewpoints in their motive) is universally false regardless of context. As long as ISIS is killing people, '[x] supremacy' can never be provably false.

This stands in contrast to the laws of ballistic motion. A bullet leaving a rifle behaves in a completely predictable way, regardless of the belief of the man pulling the trigger ...

Let us go one step further. We can try to disprove white supremacy. The most obvious answer is genes - we have shown humans are 99% similar (or thereabouts). Furthermore, we are doing psychological research into the idea of nature versus nurture. We are asking the question about culture, where Ashkenazi jews impart their famous work ethic and somehow end up producing nobel prize winners with startling frequency.

So in a way, we are able to slowly chip away at this claim, and get to the point that it is not really white people who are supreme (that's just a function of the sun or something ..?) but rather the peculiar chaotic path of history and other immeasurably complex factors that resulted in the West achieving some sort of dominance over the rest of the world. So maybe white surpremacy is not about skin colour, but about a geographical region of people. Wait ...

... is white supremacy falsifiable? It seems like it is one of many lenses through which you peer at history.
If you're looking for an answer about philosophical views on concepts like the purpose to life, no, because it's a belief. Beliefs aren't useless, however, as beliefs drive a person towards a goal and act as a compass for a person's views on the world, life, and their place in it.
Correct. Philosophy provides us points of view. They are personal and we are all free to accept or reject them based upon our internal compass. But a falsifiable philosophy eventually becomes true regardless of point of view - you fall whether you like it or not.

I apologize in advance for any rudeness.
 
Without predefined boundaries, it is not falsifiable.
Can you please tell me what the boundaries are? I do not see any in my daily practice that prevents me from making falsifiable claims. Is it something about instrumentalism or something, or the assumption about reality? Examples would go a long way to helping me understand you.

So, let us go back to our familiar example of inertial motion. What about this claim is not falsifiable?
 
No, it actually isn't. I already said I wasn't perfect, so the, uh, lady (still not satisfied?) represents an agreeable person who would like to talk about this with you. That way you can't use my disagreeable personality as an excuse to dismiss my viewpoint.

When your "hypothetical person" holds the exact same views and questions as you, you're making a hypothetical version of yourself. Flipping the sex of the hypothetical person doesn't suddenly change that. I also answered your question and didn't use your disagreeable personality as an "excuse", considering I've answered your question multiple times throughout this thread.
One thing at a time. There is a clear order to this process, one follows logically from the prior. Let us first settle on whether philosophy makes falsifiable viewpoints.
Already done, but I suspect you were reading my post and countering each point one by one rather than reading the sum of it and then writing a counter, so in all fairness, I'll give this a pass-over.
Jewish people, who are by far and away the nobel prize carriers in science, are white. How is white supremacy wrong?
...

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Okay. I think I have learned more about your views than I ever wanted to know. Ever.

In all seriousness though, how to disprove White Supremacy.

Are white people capable of doing anything more efficiently or in a manner superior to other ethnic groups, collectively, as a group, against the other groups? No.

Bam.

Done.

Why you even tried to argue this is beyond me. I set up a false dichotomy for you: And you actually played it straight. I'm actually mildly impressed right now.
If you were an unfortunate chap growing up in 1930's Germany, you would have done your damnedest to convince me of Aryan philosophy.
#1: We're not arguing if the people who held the belief, believed they were wrong. You asked me to find you a falsifiable philosophical belief, and, there you go. It's right there.
#2: White Supremacy is still a belief held by thousands across the planet. They're an obvious minority of the population, but you don't... Really think they don't exist anymore... Do you? I mean, considering your previous response, I have to ask this. I'm sorry.
#3: Considering the German people tried to assassinate their own Fuhrer over forty times, I'd say that it's obvious that there were some unfortunate chaps growing up in 1930's Germany who were more than happy to disagree. The state however, repressed them. Because of a faulty philosophical belief that white people are inherently superior to others.

I've done what you've asked. "Is there a falsifiable philosophical view?" Yes. Absolutely. Obviously. It's right there. The fact that you choose to ignore it is not my problem.
 
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Can you please tell me what the boundaries are? I do not see any in my daily practice that prevents me from making falsifiable claims. Is it something about instrumentalism or something, or the assumption about reality? Examples would go a long way to helping me understand you.
So, let us go back to our familiar example of inertial motion. What about this claim is not falsifiable?
Well, you did give two good examples yourself, but here are the ones I think of.

Boundary number one: we assume that observation allows us to access reality.
Boundary number two: we assume that we are able to measure accurately its lack of movement.
Boundary number three: we assume that there are no forces acting upon it.
Boundary number four: we assume the frame of reference—in this case, I'm guessing the observer—also to be inertial.

And boundaries continue.

For any given scientific fact, we isolate it from most everything else. We assume that the things we observe right in front of us are the explanation for why it does this particular thing. There are potentially infinite things that could be affecting the experiment that we are fully incapable of comprehending.

So we make it simple. We set boundaries that are reasonable for practical application. Within those boundaries, we can prove and disprove things. Only within those boundaries can something be falsifiable.
 
TIL: Unaun uses science as a excuse to act like a prick, believes in white supremacy, Has no idea how to carry himself as a debate at all and reminds me of a less scientifically illiterate O'Reiley.


How about you address even half the criticism and point levied against you. You won't, you cherry pick and change the topic and then try to repeat a certain reasoning as if it would make you right in spite of everything else.

"One thing at a time. There is a clear order to this process, one follows logically from the prior. Let us first settle on whether philosophy makes falsifiable viewpoints."

No. You do not get to go "One thing at a time" when you ignored large chunks what people have written and switched arguing points many times BEFORE "falisfiable viewpoints" was brought up. It is downright hypocritical of you to try and tell others to stick to one thing. And as Brovo said. He had already proven and mentioned it. Face it, you have nothing but your own supposed PHD in a entirely unrelated field of expertise that has nothing to do with the topic and yet you tried the incredibly vain thing and used it as a lever for your argument earlier.

Sweet baby Satan this so dumb.
 
Well this is obviously going fucking nowhere anymore. I don't think that unanun is actually trying to resurrect the Fuhrer's noble Aryan Empire, but that's for you lot to decide I suppose.

LET'S CHANGE THE TOPIC TO SOMETHING ELSE PHILOSOPHY-RELATED. LIKE HOW AWESOME DAVID HUME IS.
 
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