Liberty or Security?

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Is it acceptable for people's rights to be violated in the name of security?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • No

    Votes: 11 55.0%
  • Under the right circumstances

    Votes: 6 30.0%

  • Total voters
    20
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SacredWarrior

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Original poster
"Those who would give up a little liberty in exchange for a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

That quote pretty sums up my thoughts. I don't think people's rights should be violated by government and state simply for the sake of false security that never prevents tragedies like people think they do. Screw stop and frisk, the TSA, NSA, and Patriot Act honestly.

This video kinda sums up my thoughts:

 
The state should be limited to its most basic functions: courts, military/police, and emergency response teams if we're going to be consistent about favoring liberty over true security. Which I'm in favor of.
 
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Yes, certain rights and freedoms should be restrained or even taken away given the appropriate circumstances. These circumstances, granted, are extreme, and should only be acted upon in cases where there is no other choice--liberty should be the ideal for which all of society strives in unison. That, however, cannot be achieved without the ability of the State to modify or restrict certain rights and freedoms for the good of the collective.

#1: A right is only as effective as one's ability to exercise that right. Equal Opportunity can only be achieved if thresholds and equalizing mediums are created and maintained so that those in the poorest and most disenfranchised groups of society can start climbing the ladder. If businesses are allowed to discriminate based on colour, sexuality, gender, and creed, you end up with a fractured society where the majority can bully the minority into silence or non-existence.

#2: Rights often overlap and conflict, and their extremes can cause bodily or mental harm, thus requiring quantifiable limitations on those rights. Which right is more important: The Right to Private Property, or Freedom of Religion? An atheist buys a bar and sticks a sign on it that says "no Bibles allowed." Who is in the wrong: The Christian who walks into that bar and practices his Freedom of Religion, or the Atheist who is practicing his right to Private Property? Does Religious Freedom extend to allowing adults to send their children out of country to Bible Camps in places like South Africa and Cuba, where they get viciously starved and abused against their will as pseudo-prisoners in foreign lands? Does Freedom of Speech extend to explaining, in detail, how to kill the President while he sits in the Oval Office, or in making threats of rape to a woman on the subway?

#3: Human Rights are a Human Invention, and can only be practically enforced by the State. Without the State--without Police, without Military, without the ability to enforce the rules of society forged in the bonds of Social Contract--you have no rights. Mother Nature doesn't care about your right to private property, animals will walk into it. Mother Nature doesn't care about your right to religious freedoms, she'll murder you while you're praying to God for help. The very State that is often spat upon is the very entity that creates, enshrines, and maintains the rights and freedoms that people practice every day.

#4: In times of great emergency, there has been justification to revoke rights and freedoms temporarily. During World War 2, we (the western democratic world) were facing an enemy like we had never seen before. The Fascists had no regard for the rights and freedoms we exercised every day and mass conscripted their own people to commit mass murder on a scale none had ever witnessed before. The Draft became a required evil that the State enforced against the male population in order to achieve a military strength significant enough to not only defend itself, but eventually to push back and defeat the very enemies that had sought to destroy our way of life. During mass riots and violence, in order to protect the civilian population, Martial Law has been invoked many times across Western Countries to great effect in ensuring that local populations were not harmed or killed by violent protesters or against terrorist threats. A specific example comes to mind in how Martial Law was declared in the 1970's by Canada to deal with the FLQ crisis.

#5: The Founding Fathers are not the most morally sound people to take advice on running a modern country from. The Founding Fathers never thought that any of you should get a vote. They thought that only white, land owning males should get the vote, because they honestly believed that the common population was too stupid to run its own affairs. They wrote about "liberty for all men" on paper and ink afforded to them by the labour of slaves. Thomas Jefferson cheated on his wife with one of his slaves for years. When it came time for the first elections, after Washington, the very same people who worked together to defeat the British ran smear campaigns against each other in newspapers they fucking owned that makes Trump look positively kind hearted and restrained in comparison.

Granted, these people were born in a very different time. They lived by very different rules in a very different country. I respect and admire them for what they are: Progress-makers, in a backwards time. Hell, they were surrounded by monarchies, and natives who scalped prisoners of war after raping the women--the fact that they came through with as many powerful human rights as they did is stunning. They are, by all rights, heroes. The Americans and the French paved the way for others to follow, and for that, I--as a Canadian, no less--will admire all the sacrifices and painstaking struggles these countries endured during their flirtations with enabling the common man to greater heights than ever before.

A new, raw country, with many great ideas, that eventually molded into a world superpower. However, even the Founding Fathers thought they maybe perhaps fucked up a bit with their original documentation and created a Bill of Rights that added not one, not two, but ten amendments to the US Constitution--including the right to keep and bear arms, which Republicans are super duper fond of whenever they masturbate to the unrealistically perfect image they have for their Founding Fathers. After that, there was another 17 amendments added over the years, for a total of 27 amendments to the US Constitution.

The Founding Fathers made mistakes. They even knew that they made mistakes--mistakes they argued about how to fix. They're not perfect people, the laws they made are not perfect, the statements they made--however wise--are not always true. The only two truths in the world are taxes, and death, and not necessarily in that order. However, the Founding Fathers knew they were not perfect, and admitted as such multiple times. They created a State that was capable of changing and adapting to the world around it, and as such, their original dream grew. The disdain for the common man changed when white men gained the right to vote, then all men, then women. Laws were made to ensure that the right to vote could not be taken away by majority bullies. Freedom of Expression was expanded upon, The Great Awakening saw the rebirth of Christianity--some crazier, some more chill--and this amazing country evolved over time to reflect the values and needs of its citizens of the time.

Change is necessary for survival. Change sometimes means adjusting how we look at Rights and Freedoms. The State is bound to the will of the people, and so long as it remains united in cause and purpose, no man--no matter how wealthy or cruel--can sap away the united power of the united people.

Which is why today is such a depressing state of affairs. So many groups, divided on so many petty lines. Stirred into identity politics, stirred into looking at each other not as Americans, but as blacks, or women, or white men. People scared of each other, instead of holding their government accountable for what it does in their name.

Liberty dies with the sound of a thousand voices, all selfish and fearful of one another.

tl;dr: I think I've made my points clear. Rights and Freedoms can be sacrificed for Security, given the right circumstances. This has been historically proven time and again. The problem is less security--because no government, no matter how tyrannical, can maintain power over the people if the people choose to reject it. The problem is rampant fear and hatred. The classic strategy of "divide and conquer" applied by the classes against the masses.

Also, the fetishizing of the Founding Fathers needs to stop. It's distorting history and their real accomplishments--and, more importantly, their real flaws and failures.
 
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I haven't voted in this poll, because I don't think that the answer is a yes or no one. At least not for me.
 
I haven't voted in this poll, because I don't think that the answer is a yes or no one. At least not for me.
I think now would be a good time to advocate for an option 3. Perhaps yes, under the right circumstances and when absolutely necessary. This isn't one of those cut and dry questions... it's just a little more complex.
 
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Yes, certain rights and freedoms should be restrained or even taken away given the appropriate circumstances. These circumstances, granted, are extreme, and should only be acted upon in cases where there is no other choice--liberty should be the ideal for which all of society strives in unison. That, however, cannot be achieved without the ability of the State to modify or restrict certain rights and freedoms for the good of the collective.

#1: A right is only as effective as one's ability to exercise that right. Equal Opportunity can only be achieved if thresholds and equalizing mediums are created and maintained so that those in the poorest and most disenfranchised groups of society can start climbing the ladder. If businesses are allowed to discriminate based on colour, sexuality, gender, and creed, you end up with a fractured society where the majority can bully the minority into silence or non-existence.
I think the right of businesses to discriminate is far more important than equal opportunity. I don't care much for societal cohesion when it's enforced at gunpoint (thus it is tyrannical). The collective is a meaningless term, as it is entirely composed of individuals that operate on completely different levels. Ayn Rand's attitude towards the collective ought to be the default of mankind, mostly in how the trade of liberties in any form is hypocritical.
 
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I think the right of businesses to discriminate is far more important than equal opportunity.
This x1000. If a business is racist, sexist, or homophobic, let them do what they want. The free market will take care of them and show them how those behaviors are reacted toward in modern society. The answer is not very friendly.
 
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I think the right of businesses to discriminate is far more important than equal opportunity. I don't care much for societal cohesion when it's enforced at gunpoint (thus it is tyrannical). The collective is a meaningless term, as it is entirely composed of individuals that operate on completely different levels. Ayn Rand's attitude towards the collective ought to be the default of mankind, mostly in how the trade of liberties in any form is hypocritical.
If businesses gain the right to discriminate and eliminate entire groups of people based on uncontrollable factors, they become the tyrants. The only difference being that our governments are beholden to the people through democracy and the collective ability of the people to mobilize and reject their government. A corporation is beholden to the shareholders (overwhelmingly the super rich) and nobody else.

Governments are democratic. Corporations are bureaucratic dictatorships. Giving more power to the latter rather than the former is to admit you prefer a plutocratic regime that favours your particular groups over those of others.

All men in society are chained together irrevocably. To restrict the rights and freedoms of one damages the whole.
 
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If businesses gain the right to discriminate and eliminate entire groups of people based on uncontrollable factors, they become the tyrants. The only difference being that our governments are beholden to the people through democracy and the collective ability of the people to mobilize and reject their government. A corporation is beholden to the shareholders (overwhelmingly the super rich) and nobody else.

Governments are democratic. Corporations are bureaucratic dictatorships. Giving more power to the latter rather than the former is to admit you prefer a plutocratic regime that favours your particular groups over those of others.

All men in society are chained together irrevocably. To restrict the rights and freedoms of one damages the whole.
Corporations are beholden to the markets, which in some forms are democratic. In a free market, a purchase is like a vote. The more you support a company or its products, the more it is able to serve the public's wants. I cannot escape the influence of a government, whereas I can stop interacting with a company that I do not approve of and find a better one.

Furthermore, a business which discriminates would themselves collapse by cutting off potential revenue.
 
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A corporation is beholden to the shareholders (overwhelmingly the super rich) and nobody else.
And if said shareholders don't agree with their views and actions? Let's not forget the media and any sponsors the company may have. Again you're underestimating the power that people have over the market. There have been numerous examples where people have come together and opposed disgusting business practices, causing said businesses to suffer and in some cases go out of business.

The gaming industry is a perfect example of this. Just look at what happened with Digital Homicide recently. And let's not forget about Konami. What about other companies like THQ that have gone out of business or companies like SEGA who are stuck in a huge financial rut? Those things happened because gamers were sick of their shit.

A corporation is beholden to consumers as well because without them, they wouldn't even be in business.
 
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Corporations are beholden to the markets, which in some forms are democratic. In a free market, a purchase is like a vote. The more you support a company or its products, the more it is able to serve the public's wants. I cannot escape the influence of a government, whereas I can stop interacting with a company that I do not approve of and find a better one.

Furthermore, a business which discriminates would themselves collapse by cutting off potential revenue.
#1: They are a shitty form of democracy. When 1% of the population holds 20% of the vote, that's a broken system. When entire generations of people can be bred with far greater voting power via hereditary gains, that's a broken system. This is plutocracy, especially considering the gap between poor and rich keeps growing--not shrinking. Putting your bet on the free market eventually winds down to a few owning all the processes, and blocking out all competition. The only thing that breaks this is anti-monopoly laws, which are enforced by...

The Government.

The inherent flaw in Capitalism is assuming that everyone is equal, when the very demonstration of the accumulation of wealth proves otherwise.

#2: An industry only collapses if it runs out of revenue. There are millions of Christians will happily pay businesses more to eliminate LGBT consumers, for example. This is called the tyranny of the majority. It is why it is so absolutely vital and that rights and freedoms are distributed equally across a collective population.
 
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An industry only collapses if it runs out of revenue. There are millions of Christians will happily pay businesses more to eliminate LGBT consumers, for example. This is called the tyranny of the majority. It is why it is so absolutely vital and that rights and freedoms are distributed equally across a collective population.
Is that why Chik-Fil-A is worth so much less than Church's Chicken, KFC, and Popeye's? You also forget to mention the other Christians who oppose this behavior. Your argument can be used against cis white men as well and my point would still stand.

he only thing that breaks this is anti-monopoly laws, which are enforced by...

The Government.
Ironically they also create monopolies as well. Uber, Lyft, online gambling, and Bitcoin are examples of things the government and state want to get rid of so they can have a monopoly on those industries.
 
#1: They are a shitty form of democracy. When 1% of the population holds 20% of the vote, that's a broken system. When entire generations of people can be bred with far greater voting power via hereditary gains, that's a broken system. This is plutocracy, especially considering the gap between poor and rich keeps growing--not shrinking. Putting your bet on the free market eventually winds down to a few owning all the processes, and blocking out all competition. The only thing that breaks this is anti-monopoly laws, which are enforced by...

The Government.

The inherent flaw in Capitalism is assuming that everyone is equal, when the very demonstration of the accumulation of wealth proves otherwise.

#2: An industry only collapses if it runs out of revenue. There are millions of Christians will happily pay businesses more to eliminate LGBT consumers, for example. This is called the tyranny of the majority. It is why it is so absolutely vital and that rights and freedoms are distributed equally across a collective population.
All democracy is tyranny by the majority. All it would take to reinstate slavery are enough voters supporting it.

Coincidentally the government itself sets out to be a monopoly in terms of power wielded. Perhaps the wealth gap wouldn't be so large if we didn't have a 74,000 page tax code, a multitude of subsidies, bailouts for the wealthy, strict regulations that snuff out small businesses, and other typical failings of large governments. I'll include the minimum wage onto that list as well.
 
Is that why Chik-Fil-A is worth so much less than Church's Chicken, KFC, and Popeye's? You also forget to mention the other Christians who oppose this behavior. Your argument can be used against cis white men as well and my point would still stand.
I'm not talking about Chik Fil A. I'm talking about small towns becoming bastions of anti-gay by small business dominated church towns eliminating them from their markets, this creating insulated communities.

Ironically they also create monopolies as well. Uber, Lyft, online gambling, and Bitcoin are examples of things the government and state want to get rid of so they can have a monopoly on those industries.
Because there are some things the government regulates for the sake of rationality and the preservation of human lives. Uber gets around regulations ensuring taxi drivers are licences and insured so passengers aren't potentially being picked up by financial liabilities on wheels. Online gambling had bankrupted thousands of people with gambling addictions and, again, often waltzes around laws about gambling real world establishments have to obey to do business. Bitcoin is a currency with no centralized system to control its value, and is all electronic--no way to control the market and ensure the currency doesn't get dumped on and devalued tomorrow.

Use better examples.

All democracy is tyranny by the majority. All it would take to reinstate slavery are enough voters supporting it.

Coincidentally the government itself sets out to be a monopoly in terms of power wielded. Perhaps the wealth gap wouldn't be so large if we didn't have a 74,000 page tax code, a multitude of subsidies, bailouts for the wealthy, strict regulations that snuff out small businesses, and other typical failings of large governments. I'll include the minimum wage onto that list as well.
Uh, no. There are laws stopping that sort of thing from happening. The balance of power between executive, legislative, and judicial ensures that significant autocratic change doesn't happen without the utmost of scrutiny.

I am not arguing with you about the validity of the free market. It is more efficient than government, every time. However, free market operates off of the profit motive and nothing else. Human rights are not profitable. In fact, often, they introduce new costs to running a business, new restrictions.

Don't leave the fox in the chicken pen. Corporations overwhelmingly refer to human beings as "human capital"--ie, currency. Resources. Tools. It would be incredibly stupid to leave a dehumanizing efficiency machine with the keys to civil rights.
 
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Use better examples.
Banning marijuana.

I'm talking about small towns becoming bastions of anti-gay by small business dominated church towns eliminating them from their markets, this creating insulated communities.
It's unfortunate but that's their right. They have the right to believe what they believe and they have the right to their property. Yes it's disgusting and bigoted but so is the world in general. There are many other ways to counter this than shoving government down their throats.
 
Banning marijuana.
Something the private prison industry has spent millions to ensure continues. :p
It's unfortunate but that's their right. They have the right to believe what they believe and they have the right to their property. Yes it's disgusting and bigoted but so is the world in general. There are many other ways to counter this than shoving government down their throats.
No. It should not be their right. The majority should not enforce its will over individual human beings in terms of their most basic of human freedoms. This is the same mindset that justified all white towns, no colors or blacks.
 
No. It should not be their right. The majority should not enforce its will over individual human beings in terms of their most basic of human freedoms. This is the same mindset that justified all white towns, no colors or blacks.
Jim Crow was supported by government and state. I'm against them discriminating against others in their services and in services they fund. However you can't stop private businesses from doing so because property rights. As long as those businesses in that town aren't funded by government or state, then they have the right to operate how they see fit.

Small towns aren't the majority. The city is. The mayor of that city can't stop them from being bigoted now can they?
 
Uh, no. There are laws stopping that sort of thing from happening. The balance of power between executive, legislative, and judicial ensures that significant autocratic change doesn't happen without the utmost of scrutiny.
A proslavery electorate could choose a proslavery legislature and executive, thus giving us a proslavery judiciary and off goes the 13th Amendment. Checks and balances mean nothing when the majority of people agree on a single issue.
 
Yes, there are times that rights should be revoked for the sake of security.
 
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