Your Princess is in another castle!

Discussion in 'THREAD ARCHIVES' started by Asmodeus, May 31, 2014.

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  1. I read this article randomly, and it raises good points.

    As a GM I'm constantly hammering mythic storytelling into people. I teach that love is the elixir won by those willing to suffer. But the mechanic of "rewarding" protagonists has its own ugly side. In Ilium (Iwaku's mass roleplay) there are a lot of strong female leads, surrounded by males who are trying to "win them over" in certain ways. I think this may be a result of the culture described below.

    Nerdy guys aren’t guaranteed to get laid by the hot chick as long as we work hard. There isn’t a team of writers or a studio audience pulling for us to triumph by getting the girl.

    I was going to write about The Big Bang Theory—why, as a nerdy viewer, I sometimes like it and sometimes have a problem with it, why I think there’s a backlash against it. Then some maniac shot up a sorority house in Santa Barbara and posted a manifesto proclaiming he did it for revenge against women for denying him sex. And the weekend just generally went to hell.

    So now my plans have changed. With apologies to Big Bang Theory fans, this is all I want to say about The Big Bang Theory: When the pilot aired, it was 2007 and “nerd culture” and “geek chic” were on everyone’s lips, and yet still the basic premise of “the sitcom for nerds” was, once again, awkward but lovable nerd has huge unreciprocated crush on hot non-nerdy popular girl (and also has an annoying roommate).

    This annoys me. This is a problem.

    Because, let’s be honest, this device is old. We have seen it over and over again. Steve Urkel. Screech. Skippy on Family Ties. Niles on Frasier.

    We (male) nerds grow up force-fed this script. Lusting after women “out of our league” was what we did. And those unattainable hot girls would always inevitably reject us because they didn’t understand our intellectual interest in science fiction and comic books and would instead date asshole jocks. This was inevitable, and our only hope was to be unyieldingly persistent until we “earned” a chance with these women by “being there” for them until they saw the error of their ways. (The thought of just looking for women who shared our interests was a foreign one, since it took a while for the media to decide female geeks existed. The Big Bang Theory didn’t add Amy and Bernadette to its main cast until Season 4, in 2010.)

    This is, to put it mildly, a problematic attitude to grow up with. Fixating on a woman from afar and then refusing to give up when she acts like she’s not interested is, generally, something that ends badly for everyone involved. But it’s a narrative that nerds and nerd media kept repeating.

    I’m not breaking new ground by saying this. It’s been said very well over and over and over again.

    And I’m not condemning guys who get frustrated, or who have unrequited crushes. And I’m not condemning any of these shows or movies.

    And yet…

    Before I went on Jeopardy!, I had auditioned for TBS’s King of the Nerds, a reality show commissioned in 2012 after TBS got syndication rights to, yes, The Big Bang Theory. I like the show and I still wish I’d been on it. (Both “kings” they’ve crowned, by the way, have so far been women, so maybe they should retitle it “Monarch of the Nerds” or, since the final win comes down to a vote, “President of the Nerds.” Just a nerdy thought.)

    But a lot of things about the show did give me pause. One of them was that it was hosted by Robert Carradine and Curtis Armstrong—Lewis and Booger from Revenge of the Nerds. I don’t have anything against those guys personally. Nor am I going to issue a blanket condemnation of Revenge of the Nerds, a film I’m still, basically, a fan of.

    But look. One of the major plot points of Revenge of the Nerds is Lewis putting on a Darth Vader mask, pretending to be his jock nemesis Stan, and then having sex with Stan’s girlfriend. Initially shocked when she finds out his true identity, she’s so taken by his sexual prowess—“All jocks think about is sports. All nerds think about is sex.”—that the two of them become an item.

    Classic nerd fantasy, right? Immensely attractive to the young male audience who saw it. And a stock trope, the “bed trick,” that many of the nerds watching probably knew dates back to the legend of King Arthur.

    It’s also, you know, rape.

    I’ve had this argument about whether it was “technically” rape with fans of the movie in the past, but leaving aside the legal technicalities, why don’t you ask the women you know who are in committed relationships how they’d feel about guys concocting elaborate ruses to have sex with them without their knowledge to “earn a chance” with them? Or how it feels to be chased by a real-life Steve Urkel, being harassed, accosted, ambushed in public places, have your boyfriend “challenged” and having all rejection met with a cheerful “I’m wearing you down!”?

    I know people who’ve been through that. And because life is not, in fact, a sitcom, it’s not the kind of thing that elicits a bemused eye roll followed by raucous laughter from the studio audience. It’s the kind of thing that induces pain, and fear.

    When our clever ruses and schemes to “get girls” fail, it’s not because the girls are too stupid or too bitchy or too shallow to play by those unwritten rules we’ve absorbed.

    And that’s still mild compared to some of the disturbing shit I consumed in my adolescence. Jake handing off his falling-down-drunk date to Anthony Michael Hall’s Geek in Sixteen Candles, saying, “Be my guest” (which is, yes, more offensive to me than Long Duk Dong). The nerd-libertarian gospels of Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and how their Übermensch protagonists prove their masculinity by having sex with their love interests without asking first—and win their hearts in the process. Comics…just, comics. (too much to go into there but the fact that Red Sonja was once thought a “feminist icon” speaks volumes. Oh, and there’s that whole drama with Ms. Marvel for those of you who really want to get freaked out today.)

    But the overall problem is one of a culture where instead of seeing women as, you know, people, protagonists of their own stories just like we are of ours, men are taught that women are things to “earn,” to “win.” That if we try hard enough and persist long enough, we’ll get the girl in the end. Like life is a video game and women, like money and status, are just part of the reward we get for doing well.

    So what happens to nerdy guys who keep finding out that the princess they were promised is always in another castle? When they “do everything right,” they get good grades, they get a decent job, and that wife they were promised in the package deal doesn’t arrive? When the persistent passive-aggressive Nice Guy act fails, do they step it up to elaborate Steve-Urkel-esque stalking and stunts? Do they try elaborate Revenge of the Nerds-style ruses? Do they tap into their inner John Galt and try blatant, violent rape?

    Do they buy into the “pickup artist” snake oil—started by nerdy guys, for nerdy guys—filled with techniques to manipulate, pressure and in some cases outright assault women to get what they want? Or when that doesn’t work, and they spend hours a day on sites bitching about how it doesn’t work, like Elliot Rodger’s hangout “,” sometimes, do they buy some handguns, leave a manifesto on the Internet and then drive off to a sorority house to murder as many women as they can?

    No, I’m not saying most frustrated nerdy guys are rapists or potential rapists. I’m certainly not saying they’re all potential mass murderers. I’m not saying that most lonely men who put women up on pedestals will turn on them with hostility and rage once they get frustrated enough.

    But I have known nerdy male stalkers, and, yes, nerdy male rapists. I’ve known situations where I knew something was going on but didn’t say anything—because I didn’t want to stick my neck out, because some vile part of me thought that this kind of thing was “normal,” because, in other words, I was a coward and I had the privilege of ignoring the problem.

    I’ve heard and seen the stories that those of you who followed the #YesAllWomen hashtag on Twitter have seen—women getting groped at cons, women getting vicious insults flung at them online, women getting stalked by creeps in college and told they should be “flattered.” I’ve heard Elliot Rodger’s voice before. I was expecting his manifesto to be incomprehensible madness—hoping for it to be—but it wasn’t. It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part about mass murder.

    I’ve heard it from acquaintances, I’ve heard it from friends. I’ve heard it come out of my own mouth, in moments of anger and weakness.

    It’s the same motivation that makes a guy in college stalk a girl, leave her unsolicited gifts and finally when she tells him to quit it makes him leave an angry post about her “shallowness” and “cruelty” on Facebook. It’s the same motivation that makes guys rant about “fake cosplay girls” at cons and how much he hates them for their vain, “teasing” ways. The one that makes a guy suffering career or personal problems turn on his wife because it’s her job to “support” him by patching up all the holes in his life. The one that makes a wealthy entrepreneur hit his girlfriend 117 times, on camera, for her infidelity, and then after getting off with a misdemeanor charge still put up a blog post casting himself as the victim.

    And now that motivation has led to six people dead and 13 more injured, in broad daylight, with the killer leaving a 140-page rant and several YouTube videos describing exactly why he did it. No he-said-she-said, no muffled sounds through the dorm ceiling, no “Maybe he has other issues.” The fruits of our culture’s ingrained misogyny laid bare for all to see.

    And yet. When this story broke, the initial mainstream coverage only talked about “mental illness,” not misogyny, a line that people are now fervently exhorting us to stick to even after the manifesto’s contents were revealed. Yet another high-profile tech CEO resignation ensued when the co-founder of Rap Genius decided Rodger’s manifesto was a hilarious joke.

    People found one of the girls Rodger was obsessed with and began questioning if her “bullying” may have somehow triggered his rage. And, worst of all, he has fan pages on Facebook that still haven’t been taken down, filled with angry frustrated men singing his praises and seriously suggesting that the onus is on women to offer sex to men to keep them from going on rampages.

    So, a question, to my fellow male nerds:

    What the fuck is wrong with us?

    How much longer are we going to be in denial that there’s a thing called “rape culture” and we ought to do something about it?

    No, not the straw man that all men are constantly plotting rape, but that we live in an entitlement culture where guys think they need to be having sex with girls in order to be happy and fulfilled. That in a culture that constantly celebrates the narrative of guys trying hard, overcoming challenges, concocting clever ruses and automatically getting a woman thrown at them as a prize as a result, there will always be some guy who crosses the line into committing a violent crime to get what he “deserves,” or get vengeance for being denied it.

    To paraphrase the great John Oliver, listen up, fellow self-pitying nerd boys—we are not the victims here. We are not the underdogs. We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people’s entitlement. We’re not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.

    We are not Lewis from Revenge of the Nerds, we are not Steve Urkel from Family Matters, we are not Preston Myers from Can’t Hardly Wait, we are not Seth Rogen in every movie Seth Rogen has ever been in, we are not fucking Mario racing to the castle to beat Bowser because we know there’s a princess in there waiting for us.

    We are not the lovable nerdy protagonist who’s lovable because he’s the protagonist. We’re not guaranteed to get laid by the hot chick of our dreams as long as we work hard enough at it. There isn’t a team of writers or a studio audience pulling for us to triumph by “getting the girl” in the end. And when our clever ruses and schemes to “get girls” fail, it’s not because the girls are too stupid or too bitchy or too shallow to play by those unwritten rules we’ve absorbed.

    It’s because other people’s bodies and other people’s love are not something that can be taken nor even something that can be earned—they can be given freely, by choice, or not.

    We need to get that. Really, really grok that, if our half of the species ever going to be worth a damn. Not getting that means that there will always be some percent of us who will be rapists, and abusers, and killers. And it means that the rest of us will always, on some fundamental level, be stupid and wrong when it comes to trying to understand the women we claim to love.

    What did Elliot Rodger need? He didn’t need to get laid. None of us nerdy frustrated guys need to get laid. When I was an asshole with rants full of self-pity and entitlement, getting laid would not have helped me.

    He needed to grow up.

    We all do.
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  2. [​IMG]
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  3. Funny, I just stumbled over that article myself before I got to Iwaku! O__O

    Fun facts, I have been on the receiving end of guy rage MANY MANY TIMES. I've always been a confident girl when it comes to dating. I know what I want out of my relationships. When I said "Sorry, I'm just not interested." I've had guys flip their shit at me. The whole "you're a bitch.", "you won't know unless you try it out", "LOL I'll just keep asking, and asking, and asking until you finally say yes.", "I've been your friend for __ and this is how you treat me?"

    There is the guy called me a twat because I told him fuck off after he said "You're a VIRGIN?" and spent the whole night trying to get me to screw him so he could win my 18 year old v-card. >:[

    There is the guy that started to stalk me to the point of driving by my house at 3am to "check on me" because he thought that shit was romantic and if he kept trying I would eventually say yes.

    There is the guy that pulled the niceguy "we're good friends, why can't we date?" routine on me and then call me a shitty friend when I kept shooting him down.

    I'M a prude and a bitch because I wasn't interested. >:[ And that shit always pissed me off. You can sure as hell bet the minute those dudes pulled that crap on me they were out of my life in a heartbeat. Any dude that ever tried to tell me I don't REALLY know if we'd work unless I gave us a shot. Gone. Fuck. those. guys. I think I know what I find attractive and what I feel could be a good match for me. I KNOW what -I- want, and if I want to say no, fuck you. You don't freaking argue about it with me. >:[ You are not going to win me over with persistence, you're going to irritate me or scare the shit out of me and I will make sure I never see you again.

    And now I am happily married, so when I guy freaks me out, I let Gibs destroy them. 8D
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  4. The entire idea of a "friendzone" and the entitlement issues that come with it just tick me off.

    It also ticks me off, though, that this is considered a male issue. Fact is, it's an everybody issue, and women are almost as bad at perpetuating it as the guys themselves.
    Yes, that guy that bitches about all the kindness quarters he put into the sex vending machine- he's part of the problem.
    That girl who said loudly to everyone who would listen how romantic Edward Cullen and/or Heathcliff are? She's part of the problem too.

    It's like prostitution. The ones doing it are the problem, but the ones making it a rewarding and useful system are also the problem. Remove the incentive. Remove the idea that it's OK. Boycott romances that reward disrespectful males and simpering females. Don't give in to pressure- and don't just let your friends go around making mistakes. We've all seen Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, right? Remember Neville. Standing up to your friends is the hardest part, but that's what we've gotta do. Remind your girlfriends of how creepy and rapey the media they watch is. Tell your guyfriends it's not OK to harass women or bitch about the ones that don't sleep with you. Cultivate a culture of respect and single standards- we can't blame guys for the friendzone when female-oriented films still glorify stalking and power abusing situations.
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  5. Warning: Laggy gets fucking angry at shit. Like, "punch a wall, chug sulphuric acid, breathe fire" angry.

    I'm going to put it out there, I was one of those "Why don't girls like me because I'm a nice guy?" types. Key word, WAS. Not to the point where it was creepy, but I had the mindset. I was angry at people, because I thought that they were against me. That there was something going on, and I was at the business end of it. But you know what happened?
    Life happened.
    Life made me shut up, and nut up. I looked at things and thought "So I'm not going to get a romantic encounter. Who the fuck gives a shit?"
    I focussed on other things. I focussed on school. On my hobbies. I focussed on making something out of my life. And, while all this was going on, I changed, and I made myself look t my life, and rethink it. I grew the fuck up. Truth is, I couldn't accept that anything I did was my fault. I was a self-centred, arrogant, attention-seeking arsehole. Maybe I still am. Who knows? Point is, if you're the kind of guy/girl/whatever the fuck, you need to pull your head out of your arse and see what you're doing to yourself and others.

    And, let me ask you this: If you're such a nice guy, why're you being nice? Are you being nice because you genuinely like that person? Or is it because you see that person as a potential fuck? Because if you're just being nice to get in their pants, how nice are you actually being?

    I'd also like to add that being nice will only ever get you so far. You've mastered basic conversational skills and you're able to talk to someone without pissing them off? Congratu-fucking-lations! See, it's kind of like this. Imagine a guy's car breaks down, and you and your mechanic buddy happen upon him. You both offer to fix it up. You step in first, but you can't do anything, because you're not the guy the car owner wants. The car owner wants the mechanic. You simply don't fit that role. It doesn't matter how much you insist you're a nice guy, you're not being a mechanic any more than you were a second ago. You're not doing what that car owner needs you to, but your mechanic buddy's sure s hell capable of it.
    If someone wants someone else for something they are that you aren't, well, too bad. Because that's what happens. You're not rejected because you're being nice. Most of the time, the person they ARE going for is nice. How many douchebags do you think people are attracted to? Not fucking many! You don't get friends/girlfriends/boyfriends/whoever by being a complete and utter shithead to people! I certainly wouldn't be attracted to you if you treat me like crap!

    Do you know what you do if you're a nice guy who can't get someone? You go home, you look at yourself in the mirror, and you do something with yourself. Play an instrument, read some books, learn a language, just be someone! You can't just walk out and take your pick of girls, just because you feel entitled to them! Just being nice doesn't entitle you to shit! You've got to be someone that someone'd be interested in! And if they aren't? You build a bridge and get the fuck over it, because crying over unreciprocated feelings isn't going to get them to like you any more.

    I might just be talking shit here, but I am just really, REALLY, pissed off about this stuff.

    I don't know if anyone's going to read this, but whatever, I need to get this off of my chest.

    I've got a little sister, and I love her to bits. She's the sweetest girl you could ever know. It might just be me being a protective big brother, but I honestly couldn't love her more. Where am I going with this? I'll tell you where I'm going with this.
    She knows the world's not a fantastic place, but she still loves it. Approaches each day with her biggest complaint being that her class never has the same science teacher for more than a month. If you could spend just one hour with her, you'd want to just hug her. And you're telling me that you want to ruin this girl's life - this innocent, loving, caring girl's life - because you wanted to stick you dick in her?! Well, you can take step back, and literally FUCK YOUR OWN FACE. Don't you DARE tell me that you don't care that you're ruining someone's life because you're a fucking psychopath!
    Now, I haven't directly seen it happen to anyone, and it's not happened to anyone I know. But I've read about it. I've seen what happens when things like this get out of control. And let me tell you, this shit is NOT ON. You think I'm fucking around?! I have read stories - 100% bona-fucking-fide stories - of people who've been scarred for LIFE by people like this! And people still have the balls to say that there isn't a problem?! LOOK ME IN THE EYES, MOTHERFUCKER. LOOK ME IN THE EYES, AND TELL ME THAT IT ISN'T A PROBLEM THAT I WORRY FOR EVERY WAKING HOUR ABOUT MY LITTLE SISTER GOING OUT. TELL ME THAT IT ISN'T A PROBLEM THAT I AM CONSTANTLY HEARING ABOUT RAPISTS AND STALKERS WHO DON'T SEEM TO GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN BEING CAUGHT. LOOK ME SQUARE IN THE FUCKING EYES, AND TELL ME IT ISN'T A PROBLEM, WHEN YOU CAN'T ADMIT THERE'S A FUCKING PROBLEM! I AM DEAD SERIOUS, SHITFACE! PEOPLE HAVE DIED BECAUSE YOU COULDN'T SEE A PROBLEM WHILE YOUR HEAD WAS SHOVED UP YOUR OWN ARSE!


    I'm sorry, that was... Well, it's my two cents. Take it as you will.
    #5 Laggy Lagiacrus, Jun 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2014
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  6. I don't get hit on a lot (thank christ) but I have seen this behaviour IRL; people - especially men, but I've seen the situation in reverse a lot, too! - seem to think that if they just "try harder" or give "more attention" or otherwise work at it long enough, the person of their affections will eventually give in. This is just as stupid as the whole concept of people having "leagues" that a person can be in or out of. Whether they're a man or a woman, if you talk to someone like a person, and get to know their personality, interests, ambitions, morals, fears, and all those other people things, instead of just thinking about getting with them like it's the prize at the end of a social game, you might actually understand why you're getting shot down! You may not have anything in common to explore together, you may disagree on something way too crucial to ignore, you may be accustomed to way too different ways of life to be able to comfortably find a living situation together; there are thousands of perfectly legitimate reasons to deny a relationship with someone, and the idea that you "deserve" their approval is just ludicrous. This isn't a contest; you didn't score too low and need to practice more; it's just a bad fit. And everything Diana said about the "you don't know if you don't try!" is stupid, too. The very concept of saying something like that makes no sense; "if I pressure this person by indicating s/he will regret not dating me, s/he will love me" is all I hear when people demand that they be "given a chance". Everybody wants to be loved, people don't turn down an opportunity to find love if they havn't thought about it; this person has a reason for turning you down; not taking no for an answer only decreases your chances; people want respect as much as they want love, and you're showing you have no respect for them at all when you don't respect their decisions! And the whole concept of "friendzone" as it's been explained to me, is entitled bullshit. Apparently we aren't allowed to value friendships anymore, and if you befriend someone but stop being their friend if they refuse to date/have sex with you, YOU'RE the victim? What the actual fuck, people.

    **could go on but won't**
  7. One look at my profile on here would clue someone in that I might have a problem with heterosexuality as a concept, or at the very least, I have a little bit of trouble understanding it. The reason for it lies here, in the attitude of a society that brushes debates on the presence of misogyny aside because it's such an ugly word, like 'depression' in an economic sense. I'm careful about what I wear when I go outside (long skirts and pants, usually with long sleeves or a big hoodie; no makeup) just because I don't want to have to deal with people casually asking me for sex. Or telling me how much they'd like to do stuff to me. It gets to the point where I'm not very subtle about telling someone no, depending on how persistent someone is, yet I've been told time and time again that bending someone's finger backwards when they place it on my body after I tell them they don't have a chance is "going too far."

    I could be polite when rejecting someone. Asking someone out is generally how "adults" these days get to know one another, but I'm a little too old fashioned for that and would rather hang out, talk video games / books / food, or just walk around or something (I'm *very* exciting :c) until I know someone well enough to think of them as anything more than an acquaintance (someone to b/s around with) or a pest (someone who wants to b/s but can't take the hint that I'd rather be alone). So then people started talking to me about "friend-zone," and I thought this was a fantastic thing! A zone for me to keep all of my friends inside of! How awesome would that be?! I could hang out with all of my friends and we could drink and play video games and we wouldn't have to worry about any assholes complaining about being someone's friend-and-nothing-more, when they should be happy to be someone's friend!

    I've been called a bitch for telling someone roughly twenty years *at minimum* my senior that I would not go out with him.

    I've been called a whore for telling someone that, if given a choice between a male romantic partner and a female romantic partner who had the same personality, I would choose the female.

    I've been told I need to be more open-minded and give guys a chance, and I've responded to the guys who told me to do this thing that maybe they should try getting with a guy.

    I've been told, "You just haven't met the right guy yet," in regards to my preference for feminine people of either gender.

    I've been told that I should feel flattered that people are paying attention to me, approaching me for sex that I don't want to have, and telling me I should smile more because I'm "pretty," which really just means that they want to fantasize about someone who's smiling while they stare at them.

    I've had people de-value my opinions or interpretations of fictional characters (yes, I know this isn't important), assume I don't know how to fix a computer or connect a few cables or do high school level algebra without a calculator because I'm female.

    I've been told I'm "living in sin" for not trying to get a husband, when I was worrying more about how I'm supposed to eat for the next few months. And a virgin. Presumably by somebody who wasn't a virgin.

    I've been given incredulous looks for a belief that all vampires are off limits when it comes to romance, because necrophilia is gross (and let's not ignore the fact that a thousand-year-old is getting involved with someone in her twenties, or a teenager).

    It's led to me playing almost exclusively as a male on the internet, just because I hate being seen as a "girl on the internet." It gets you way too much attention, people ask questions that are way too personal (and when you call them out for being nosy, the excuse is always "I'm just asking, gosh!" or "I'm just makin' conversation!"), people always try to push romance on you, and when you tell them you aren't interested in sex, they react like you were the one wasting their time by letting them acknowledge your existence. Never mind that you have your own hobbies (lol like cooking?) or writing projects (vampires and werewolves and damsels, amirite?) or musical tastes that fewer than twenty other people you've ever met in your entire life would appreciate (Nickelback?!), you're female and I'm single, so do you have a boyfriend? I specify boyfriend because I don't care if you have a girlfriend. All women want men because men are better romantic partners, and if you don't dump her for me then I'm okay with having two girlfriends. But so help me if I find you with another man I will shoot you, because you are my property. I'm glad your idealized-to-fit-my-standards version lives inside of my head now :)

    But y'know, some guys actually are pretty cool, and not just because they're secretly women. Some guys don't buy into the steaming load the media spoonfeeds everyone.

    I guess there's a draw to roleplay, being someone besides yourself on the internet, or on stage, but while some would go for the badass amazon who never answers to any man (Hah! What a fantasy), I try too hard to live to that ideal enough every time I go outside. On some days, I would rather not acknowledge my problems with social activity, and just stay away from everyone.

    But on other days, I'm glad I had a DM who was very strict about his "don't creep the female players out; yes this includes flirting" rule. For a twenty-one year old, that's pretty drat awesome.
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  8. I could get on a major soapbox about this in real life, but I think I'm just going to discuss my experience with this in storytelling, which is a much shorter narrative.

    I have an RP that I'm very serious and excited about, where at one point my strong female protagonist has her life saved by a guy. (It's not at all realistic in the story for her to save herself, even though I would prefer that. It would require insane levels of suspension of disbelief and/or sheer stupidity on the part of her enemies.) Even though in our culture, a movie would have them totally get together, I refuse to put it in the plot. Like, I warned my partner yesterday that even though I've played with the idea, I'm not going to do it. There are many story reasons that we can make it just not work, and/or she might just say she's not interested.

    Now don't get me wrong, I think it's a "cute" mechanic that two people can go through hell, help each other, and then make each other happy in the end, but I'm trying to avoid perpetuating stereotypes. But too many guys internalize this story as "well, if I'm nice to this girl, then I'll 'get' her," even if in the relevant stories, they both went through hell and back for their happy ending.

    So the point is, I think a large part of suspending this belief in our culture is not continuing to write media where it happens, at least not all the time. Find other ways to give your characters a happy ending.
  9. No one owes you shit. Important life lesson.
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  10. Interesting article and thank you for sharing it.
    I never had too much of a problem with guys, I wasn't really ever the 'hot' nerdy chick. (Then again I live in a small town and the problems I did have may or may not have resulted in violence because I have 5 brothers and 2 are older than me.) I was always pretty out there and weird. I spent a lot of time in the library researching black holes and sea turtles and all I ever spoke about was social issues because my best friends mothers would rally together and I'd listen in.
    Anyhow, the problems I had on this subject were my mother and grandmother. I don't really get along with either, but uh you kind of have to fake it when your living space is on the line. Both are very religious, which may be part of it. But neither are excused, I mean after the shooting my grandmother kind of nodded and said that the guy "Just wanted love" and she "Felt bad for him". Then proceeded to lecture me on how men liked families and to be breadwinners and take care of things because that's how god designed them and this is what happens when females go from housewives to making money and having families by themselves. I said nothing, I know by now arguing with her is like speaking to a brick wall. But it disgusts me, and she passed it down to my mother as well. Although this is only a small example, the small things add up. At a young age myself I thought that was the main goal in life was getting a boyfriend, settling down and having kids. I was taught from my mother this lovely motto "Boys come for the goods and stay for the personality" so around 12 or so I started getting into the makeup and dieting and dressing in weird trendy fashions because that's what my mom did. I then began to develop eating disorders and such which is not good. it really didn't matter how I looked though because I was still weird as shit. Which made me feel like I was purposeless in life and if no one wanted me then why am I even living?

    Then I got into an actual relationship with a boy later on and I was so happy. Then really fucking upset, because I absolutely hated that relationship. At one point he tried to kiss me. To which I responded by punching him in the nose and calling him gay. I have no idea why those were the first words out of my mouth but I panicked. Also I accidentally convinced him I was a man after he said he couldn't be gay because I was a female, and I responded a little too blankly "Female? Right oh yeah..." I also realized I was gay a little later on because uh yeah females man. It's kinda awful that I really didn't think life was any more than having babies until I found out I was a lesbian which really fucked me up because I mean, I love being a female and I was always taught lesbians just wanted to be guys. Plus the religious stuff and everything else you go through. My whole life changed purpose. It was tough, but eventually I educated myself and became more comfortable. Anyway I had a point in all this to say women are also taught that men are allowed and supposed to be this way too and then go on to tell their daughters that yes your main goal in life is love and babies and whatever you can do to get a man to love you, do that. Which is bullshit and yeah. Im angry about it. But at the same time, how do you fix it? How do I stand against it? How do I change it? When I speak out about it everyone brushes me off as a liberal, a feminist, or a lesbian man-hater. I don't know. I think talking about it is good, but I have no clue as to if it'll ever change really. Because if only 50% of the population was doing it, maybe we could point out this bullshit. But it's an all-gender, all-age, inexclusive thing where a lot of the population justifies it. I would venture to say the majority. And that sucks.
    #10 Kitty, Jun 10, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2014
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