Why "Smile, baby," is unacceptable.

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@york Ok, nit picking your words maybe, but this is not a debate. There is no debate over whether street harassment happens, or on its severity. Women are affected and hurt by this. End of story there. Also, yes, I am emotional, because this is a problem that affects me personally, affects all the women I know and love in my life, is on a trend to continue to affect most all the women that will come after me, and seems to be swept under the rug unless people get emotional and loud.
 
@york Ok, nit picking your words maybe, but this is not a debate. There is no debate over whether street harassment happens, or on its severity. Women are affected and hurt by this. End of story there. Also, yes, I am emotional, because this is a problem that affects me personally, affects all the women I know and love in my life, is on a trend to continue to affect most all the women that will come after me, and seems to be swept under the rug unless people get emotional and loud.
Alright, again, not saying these problems aren't big ones but what I am saying is that perhaps trying to reach out to more people with this stuff can indeed boil down to a debate, which is currently kind of happening here. These problems do need to be dealt with but that takes time, effort, and alot of patience. Just to put this out there though; I'm playing the devils advocate here more or less to see if there are any potential flaws to be found in arguments for this cause to 1) to see how thought out these arguments are 2) to lessen the chances of such flaws becoming sometimes particularly devastating weak points later along the line and 3) to iron out my own flaws when it comes to debates/arguments like this. So one thing I'd like to request is not to take these arguments of mine too personally.
 
@Lucian Ravenscar - do you genuinely want to talk about this? Because if you continue with your tone, this thread will be locked. That is the one certainty of this discussion.


The ugliest sides of all human behaviour are swept under the rug. This is part of life. It's how we leave the house each day without collapsing in a puddle of despair. You have to see the best in people, or what's the point of continuing? Change comes very slowly, especially with racism and sexism. Getting "loud" on an Iwaku thread will solve nothing. Only informed conversation will help change people's minds.

Maybe there's a future misogynist on Iwaku right now, looking through the threads. How is this one going to change his life? He sees Koori posting gifs, you being abrupt, and others decrying the evils of men. Is that going to rock his world and give him a revelation? I don't think so.

What WILL rock his world is realizing that there are subjects that need to be thought about intelligently before emotional resorts are taken. If we set up THAT precedent, and establish THAT environment, then maybe we can steer some people in the right direction.




I will say nothing more. Enjoy the discussion.
 
Y'know I'm really not sure I should be posting here, but I'm just going to go out on a limb and insert my raw opinion. The truth is that I cannot take that article seriously. Not only does it use widely discredited claims like '1 in 5 women gets raped' but it goes slippery slope from aggressive flirting to criminal offences. There's a giant wash-list of bullshit in it, that really doesn't help to highlight or solve anything. In fact it's got a rather destructive mindset.

As for the issue itself, I'm not going to deny harassment exists. I'm not going to deny it contributes to women feeling uncomfortable in public spaces. But I do want to point out there's a difference in severity. "Smile, baby" might not be particularly endearing to everyone, but that's the kind of retarded first world country complaint you should get over, unless you are tested for anxiety disorder or something. You don't like aggressive flirting or that type of pick-me-up. That's fine. You're free to turn it down and go about your day however you feel like. It's kind of like someone telling me my loved ones are in a better place after a recent death. On account of my stance on religion, I wouldn't appreciate that kind of condolence; but there is no destructive intent and it's only as big of an issue as I allow it to be.

The article goes on to talk about more touchy-feely kinda guys, and I do get that. I don't like it when some random drunk cougar grabs my ass and calls me stud either. In my case I react something among the lines of "Yo, fuck off." and I think others have a rather similar mindset when it comes to unwanted sexually charge contact. While I don't think it's socially acceptable, I'm not going to the police with it either. Unless they're a repeat offender, of course, I'd write it off as social incompetence.

Then we go on to persistence. Been there too. I've had the pleasure dealing a guy who didn't get words like "No", "I'm not into guys" and "Dude I have a girlfriend." Though admittedly that situation is a lot less scary when you're able to twist someone's arm and tell them you'll break it if they don't go fuck their selves. I do think this behaviour is unacceptable and that people forcing their selves upon you against your will should be kicked off the streets or out of clubs. Disrespecting a person's limits after they've repeatedly told them to you goes under harassment and is unacceptable. Especially in the workplace.

Random guys on streets yelling or slinging insults at you is also bad. However, don't assume you're the only one here. If I look wrong at one guy yelling shit at me, chances are he and his buddies are going to swing slurs at me too, possibly beat me up if I give them lip. There are people looking for trouble out in this world, but rather than giving it to them, ignore them. They're not worth your time, nor the risk of provocation. And I'm going to inB4 because this generally puts people on the edge; I'm not saying victims of abuse deserve to be harassed, beaten up or raped or whatever. What I am saying is that if you walk into a pit of vipers, the vipers may technically be at fault for killing you, but you can't expect them not to bite when you set foor in their pit. That is their instinct; however wrong that instinct may be. When people yell slurs at you, it is really best not to give them a reaction or a reason to up their game. Especially when these people are in groups. At the end of the day, these people are sexually frustrated low-lifes and it's not worth it getting yourself into danger when you don't have to. When you're at a safe distance, feel free to call the cops on them.

Then there are things like actual physical abuse and stalking. These are criminal offences and already are not tolerated by society. They're also miles away from "Smile, baby."

As for men not taking a stance against these behaviours... Well, one is that most men actually avoid conflict. Stepping in and saying "Hey man, that's no way to treat a lady." is a potential one-way-ticket to a nose-reconstruction. A lot of guys are just as scared of the harassers as you are. If you're not willing to defend your own honour, how can you expect someone else to do it for you? That's not equal treatment. And how many women are going to step in if that cougar I mentioned before grabs my junk? Not too many. Especially not her friends. Likewise a lot of guys are also scared of losing the approval of their peers. Not a valid excuse, but a behaviour that applies to both men and women. Almost everyone protects their own well-being and relationships.

I'm not trying to tell you it's okay that society doesn't always stand up for what is right. However, do understand there are various levels of danger related to how you choose to deal with situations. Standing up for something or someone may put you in danger. It's probably safer to slap an arm around that perverted uncle and drag him off saying "Let's get another drink like old times, just you and me, you old bastard!", than to put your hands on your hips and tell him "Nu-uh. That ain't right." Where you risk damaging your relationship.

Also, at the risk of echoing Asmodeus; crying on fora or social media is an ineffective way to change society. Giving people role models and positive examples works a hell lot better, even if slowly, and teaching people how to deal with difficult situations to the best of their ability will have a far greater immediate effect than to try and single out every bastard in the universe.

But hey, that's just my 2 cents. Here's to hoping I don't regret posting.
 
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