What's so bad about vaccines?

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That's rough, I hope she has a clear bill of health moving forward, because with what I've had to deal with, I'd be screwed if I had a phobia. Last trip to the hospital involved daily bloodwork at 3am, creating a new IV site every 3 days, and the afformentioned drain tube. Before that, my medicine was self administered with an autoinjector.

I still have visible marks from the IV sites I had in January, and the bruising from 3 burst veins in February took weeks to clear.
Ouch. You must have really tiny veins. I'm the same way, but my veins roll too, so I'm doubly screwed every three months when it's time to get blood drawn.
 
Ouch. You must have really tiny veins. I'm the same way, but my veins roll too, so I'm doubly screwed every three months when it's time to get blood drawn.
No, they're a regular size, and I have no cardiovascular problems, I just think the day they decided to explode on me was a combination of dehydration (gee, you fast me for 30 hours for an MRI you decide to cancel without telling anybody, I wonder why I'm dehydrated) and stress from the daily needles and tape ripping.

My veins do like to shift like yours, so that's a pain in the ass for everyone involved.
 
Personally though I don't like anyone relying on Herd Immunity unless if it's an outright medical necessity.
Allergies I can understand, because a lot of bad shit (like death in extreme cases) can happen from it.
Anxiety? No matter how bad it is you have one miserable day and then you're out.

And normally I try to be really understanding of people with such fears.
But it crosses a line once it puts the well being of children in danger.
Except. There isn't a danger. Because herd immunity is good enough. That even with people not getting vaccinations because of phobias. People are still protected. Just like this was the case. Before the anti-vaccine movement. And it's only now. That this is a problem???

At any rate, if people can really put themselves through that kind of anxiety and get themselves vaccinated then more power to them. But you can't expect that from everyone. And saying "you're too scared to get a vaccine and that makes you just as bad as the anti-vaccers" is fucking insulting.

There are plenty of good people out there who want to get vaccinated and who know that they're putting themselves (and possibly others!) at risk, but, when it puts people into a fucking panic attack where they are literally so scared that they think they're going to die... I'm sorry, but I can definitely understand where these people are coming from and I don't think they should be given any grief for it. They know that they're putting themselves and others at risk, but, if it's that bad of an experience... I can't blame them.

And, like I said, if anti-vaccers didn't exist, then people with phobias wouldn't be a problem, because herd immunity would be strong enough that these few people not getting vaccinations wouldn't cause any issues for themselves or for anyone else.

So if you want to claim that anyone is "putting children at risk", tell it to the anti-vaccers, or to the people who don't get vaccines because they think they "don't need them". Those are the people putting children at risk, because they're the ones preventing herd immunity from being effective. If everyone, save for the people who can't get vaccines because of allergies or because it made them think they were about to fucking die, got vaccinated, then there wouldn't be a problem. Children wouldn't be at risk. Before the anti-vaccine movement, measles was nearly extinct, and it likely would've become extinct if the anti-vaccine movement didn't happen. In which case, people with phobias could continue to not get vaccinated and they wouldn't be harming people because of it, since these diseases would still be on the decline.

In an ideal world, it would be great if everyone could be brave enough or have enough resources to feasibly find a way to get vaccinated, regardless of their phobias. But acting as if everyone should and that they're just as bad as anti-vaccers if they don't (or even simply saying that they're contributing to the problem) is a fucking horrible thing to say to people who want to get vaccinated and wish it were easy but can't -- people who maybe have tried to get vaccinations but just couldn't control their fears well enough to let it happen, who broke out in a fucking panic, screaming and crying and hyperventilating as they tried to swat the thing out of the doctor's hands and hide in the fucking corner, curling up in a ball and trying their damnedest not to let anyone poke anything inside them because they thought they were about to die. If someone's phobia is that bad (and to many people I'm sure it is), then I really don't think they should be judged for it -- especially since, if anti-vaccers didn't exist, then the people who have phobias wouldn't be presenting enough of an issue to threaten herd immunity or to put anyone at any legitimate risk.

Edit: And bear in mind I'm talking about adults whose phobias are bad enough to do these things to them. If getting a vaccine was that bad of an experience for you, Gwazi, would you be able to go through with it every time it was necessary? Maybe you would -- and that's great, I'd commend you for it. But you can't expect it from everyone. And saying that someone isn't brave enough to overcome that kind of irrational fear and is therefore contributing to the problem of anti-vaccers is not only inaccurate but also plain insulting.
 
That's.... That's really brutal. o_o
Should such a thing be easily available for stuff like that?

I'm talking a lot less than 10%, I'm talking just the cases where for someone they didn't already get a lethal shot as a child.
Basically if it's a brand new vaccine, or if they happened to have an anti-vac parent and then snap out of it later.

They had other, stronger drugs that they chose not to give me before hand because they thought the freezing (probably spelling that wrong) would be enough. This is after I was expressing pain and discomfort at something as small as them poking around with the ultrasound to find out where the abscess that was pressing out against my skin and building in pressure was so they could tap into it. Out of all the things I've had done to me by doctors and other medical professionals over my entire life, that was the only time I felt violated and grossly mistreated.

Even so, for reasons Kaga mentioned, anesthetics are typically only used when surgery is involved. My point was that if the option to suddenly get anesthetics for something like a vaccine were made available in bizzaro world, the already overburdened healthcare system would be even worse strained. Anesthetics require a bed to recover in, and it's not unheard of for people to be stuck waiting in a lobby overnight, if not a couple days, for a bed to free up for urgent care.
 
Except. There isn't a danger. Because herd immunity is good enough. That even with people not getting vaccinations because of phobias. People are still protected. Just like this was the case. Before the anti-vaccine movement. And it's only now. That this is a problem???

At any rate, if people can really put themselves through that kind of anxiety and get themselves vaccinated then more power to them. But you can't expect that from everyone. And saying "you're too scared to get a vaccine and that makes you just as bad as the anti-vaccers" is fucking insulting.

There are plenty of good people out there who want to get vaccinated and who know that they're putting themselves (and possibly others!) at risk, but, when it puts people into a fucking panic attack where they are literally so scared that they think they're going to die... I'm sorry, but I can definitely understand where these people are coming from and I don't think they should be given any grief for it. They know that they're putting themselves and others at risk, but, if it's that bad of an experience... I can't blame them.

And, like I said, if anti-vaccers didn't exist, then people with phobias wouldn't be a problem, because herd immunity would be strong enough that these few people not getting vaccinations wouldn't cause any issues for themselves or for anyone else.

So if you want to claim that anyone is "putting children at risk", tell it to the anti-vaccers, or to the people who don't get vaccines because they think they "don't need them". Those are the people putting children at risk, because they're the ones preventing herd immunity from being effective. If everyone, save for the people who can't get vaccines because of allergies or because it made them think they were about to fucking die, got vaccinated, then there wouldn't be a problem. Children wouldn't be at risk. Before the anti-vaccine movement, measles was nearly extinct, and it likely would've become extinct if the anti-vaccine movement didn't happen. In which case, people with phobias could continue to not get vaccinated and they wouldn't be harming people because of it, since these diseases would still be on the decline.

In an ideal world, it would be great if everyone could be brave enough or have enough resources to feasibly find a way to get vaccinated, regardless of their phobias. But acting as if everyone should and that they're just as bad as anti-vaccers if they don't (or even simply saying that they're contributing to the problem) is a fucking horrible thing to say to people who want to get vaccinated and wish it were easy but can't -- people who maybe have tried to get vaccinations but just couldn't control their fears well enough to let it happen, who broke out in a fucking panic, screaming and crying and hyperventilating as they tried to swat the thing out of the doctor's hands and hide in the fucking corner, curling up in a ball and trying their damnedest not to let anyone poke anything inside them because they thought they were about to die. If someone's phobia is that bad (and to many people I'm sure it is), then I really don't think they should be judged for it -- especially since, if anti-vaccers didn't exist, then the people who have phobias wouldn't be presenting enough of an issue to threaten herd immunity or to put anyone at any legitimate risk.

Edit: And bear in mind I'm talking about adults whose phobias are bad enough to do these things to them. If getting a vaccine was that bad of an experience for you, Gwazi, would you be able to go through with it every time it was necessary? Maybe you would -- and that's great, I'd commend you for it. But you can't expect it from everyone. And saying that someone isn't brave enough to overcome that kind of irrational fear and is therefore contributing to the problem of anti-vaccers is not only inaccurate but also plain insulting.
If the zombie apocalypse ever happens, it'll be because of anti-vaxxers, I guarantee it.

"I'd rather Timmy become a flesh eating ghoul than get autism!" They shriek, and not because Sally is currently munching through their thighs.
 
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If the zombie apocalypse ever happens, it'll be because of anti-vaxxers, I guarantee it.

"I'd rather Timmy become a flesh eating ghoul than get autism!" They shriek, and not because Sally is currently munching through their thighs.
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They had other, stronger drugs that they chose not to give me before hand because they thought the freezing (probably spelling that wrong) would be enough. This is after I was expressing pain and discomfort at something as small as them poking around with the ultrasound to find out where the abscess that was pressing out against my skin and building in pressure was so they could tap into it. Out of all the things I've had done to me by doctors and other medical professionals over my entire life, that was the only time I felt violated and grossly mistreated.

Even so, for reasons Kaga mentioned, anesthetics are typically only used when surgery is involved. My point was that if the option to suddenly get anesthetics for something like a vaccine were made available in bizzaro world, the already overburdened healthcare system would be even worse strained. Anesthetics require a bed to recover in, and it's not unheard of for people to be stuck waiting in a lobby overnight, if not a couple days, for a bed to free up for urgent care.
The risks for anesthesia aren't very high, but there's still risks. However, I'm one of those people who believe in order to deal with a fear, you have to face it at some point. A fear of needles is no reason not to have your kid vaccinated. Yes, I know every time I took my daughter to the doctors I was going to have to hold her down, but I'd much rather subject her to a few minutes of fear than a possible lifetime of scars that she could get if she ended up with measles or chicken pox, or the chance she could end up paralyzed if she happened to catch Polio.

Whenever they give you an immunization, they give you a pamphlet on the possible risks and side effects of it, both common and rare. There is, as there is with all medication, always a chance of death. There are things that someone can be allergic to and not aware of, there are always possibilities for things to go wrong. But the chances of those things happening as so small that people tend to not to even think of the possibility. As a parent, I was more worried about the fevers and swelling than I ever was about sudden blindness or death. Not that the fear wasn't always in the back of my mind, but you rarely hear stories of things like that happening.
 
The risks for anesthesia aren't very high, but there's still risks. However, I'm one of those people who believe in order to deal with a fear, you have to face it at some point. A fear of needles is no reason not to have your kid vaccinated. Yes, I know every time I took my daughter to the doctors I was going to have to hold her down, but I'd much rather subject her to a few minutes of fear than a possible lifetime of scars that she could get if she ended up with measles or chicken pox, or the chance she could end up paralyzed if she happened to catch Polio.

Whenever they give you an immunization, they give you a pamphlet on the possible risks and side effects of it, both common and rare. There is, as there is with all medication, always a chance of death. There are things that someone can be allergic to and not aware of, there are always possibilities for things to go wrong. But the chances of those things happening as so small that people tend to not to even think of the possibility. As a parent, I was more worried about the fevers and swelling than I ever was about sudden blindness or death. Not that the fear wasn't always in the back of my mind, but you rarely hear stories of things like that happening.
You be doing the parenting thing right. I absolutely agree; while I can't speak for people who have phobias, the only real way to overcome your fears is to face them. I think part of the reason I never really developed a strong fear or phobia over anything is because at a young age, I decided to ask myself why something was scary and looking at it way more objectively than any primary school kid probably should have. I went from being pretty freaked out by spiders, for instance, to catching horse and black flies to place in their webs, and in one particularly memorable case from when I was about 8 years old, I had a Street Shark hand puppet on one of the posts on my bed, and apparently a spider decided to lay eggs in there and they decided to hatch and crawl all over my bed sheets and pillows. I wasn't really freaked out, but I did take forever trying to catch them.

Anyways, that's going way off topic. I just wanted to emphasize the point that I think I dodged a bullet from developing a full blown phobia by deciding to face my fear head on as a kid. Obviously, one size doesn't fit all, and what worked for me is hardly a universal thing.

I'm also getting to the point where I only half listen to all the astronomical horrific side effects, because hell, basically everything has them. It's just usually a case of one or two people in history died or were crippled from an otherwise safe and proven medication that they still have to warn you it's a possibility. I figure I have a better chance of burping so hard it'll stop my heart than getting killed from most medication. It's kind of like how plane crashes don't freak me out about flying because the odds of it happening are supremely low, like I had a far greater chance of getting in a fatal car crash on my way to the airport low.
 
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Except. There isn't a danger. Because herd immunity is good enough. That even with people not getting vaccinations because of phobias. People are still protected. Just like this was the case. Before the anti-vaccine movement. And it's only now. That this is a problem???
It's a bigger problem now as a result of the anti-vac movement.
Because like you said, it causes diseases that were dying out to now spike again.

But even if Anti-Vac wasn't a thing? I'd still take issues though cause of the cases where one of then could still catch it, and then pass it on to a kid.
It'd be a much smaller concern, but still a concern.
So if you want to claim that anyone is "putting children at risk", tell it to the anti-vaccers, or to the people who don't get vaccines because they think they "don't need them".
Never said I didn't also apply it to them (if not more strongly).
But they're not the groups people are defending here, so it's not something I need to be making a case for right now.
they're just as bad as anti-vaccers
Also this needs to stop. I already said several times I don't put them on the same level, but you keep putting these words in my mouth.
they thought they were about to die.
Thought =/= Does

Hence why I'm not going after people with allergies.
And it's also why I'm suggesting something like anaesthetic rather than simply saying "Suck it up and do it" (at which point it becomes a topic of if giving that is practical).
I'm sympathetic to the fear, but not to the point I think it counts as reason to not get it.
And saying that someone isn't brave enough to overcome that kind of irrational fear and is therefore contributing to the problem of anti-vaccers is not only inaccurate but also plain insulting.
Except in regards to allowing them to spread, they do contribute in our current climate. And before the movement was a thing they still technically were, just not to the degree it prevented the disease slowly dying (but still left holes however small for individuals to still catch it), so I would call it accurate to say their contributing. What it's not accurate to say is that they're just as bad, or doing all the same things.

And I'm fine with coming off as insulting when children's safety is on the line.
They had other, stronger drugs that they chose not to give me before hand because they thought the freezing (probably spelling that wrong) would be enough. This is after I was expressing pain and discomfort at something as small as them poking around with the ultrasound to find out where the abscess that was pressing out against my skin and building in pressure was so they could tap into it. Out of all the things I've had done to me by doctors and other medical professionals over my entire life, that was the only time I felt violated and grossly mistreated.
Honestly, this sounds like you had a shitty doctor that time. :/
Even so, for reasons Kaga mentioned, anesthetics are typically only used when surgery is involved. My point was that if the option to suddenly get anesthetics for something like a vaccine were made available in bizzaro world, the already overburdened healthcare system would be even worse strained. Anesthetics require a bed to recover in, and it's not unheard of for people to be stuck waiting in a lobby overnight, if not a couple days, for a bed to free up for urgent care.
I'm aware of the extra burden this puts on the medical system. But every proposal to try to help people with new services will have that effect, we can't shy away from it because of that fear. We need to look at ways to improve the health care system so we can keep such slowdowns to a minimum.

Plus, a vaccine isn't urgent-urgent, so people can afford to schedule a day to get friends to drive them home after the fact which would reduce the need for beds.
I still want to see a comedy sketch of a 'zombie apocalypse' except instead of zombies it's Autistic people, and instead of a virus the autistic people are running around stabbing people with vaccines.
And I say this as an Autistic person. XD
 
The risks for anesthesia aren't very high, but there's still risks. However, I'm one of those people who believe in order to deal with a fear, you have to face it at some point. A fear of needles is no reason not to have your kid vaccinated. Yes, I know every time I took my daughter to the doctors I was going to have to hold her down, but I'd much rather subject her to a few minutes of fear than a possible lifetime of scars that she could get if she ended up with measles or chicken pox, or the chance she could end up paralyzed if she happened to catch Polio.

Whenever they give you an immunization, they give you a pamphlet on the possible risks and side effects of it, both common and rare. There is, as there is with all medication, always a chance of death. There are things that someone can be allergic to and not aware of, there are always possibilities for things to go wrong. But the chances of those things happening as so small that people tend to not to even think of the possibility. As a parent, I was more worried about the fevers and swelling than I ever was about sudden blindness or death. Not that the fear wasn't always in the back of my mind, but you rarely hear stories of things like that happening.
I'm not saying that it isn't worth the risk -- I'm saying that, if grown-ass adults are deciding that they can't handle the awful anxiety of going through with an immunization, then they shouldn't be given grief about it. And it definitely shouldn't be said that they're contributing to the problem of anti-vaccers, which is A) insulting, for people who want to be vaccinated and hate the anti-vaccine movement as much as they next guy but just can't bring themselves to do it, and B) inaccurate, since, if anti-vaccers didn't exist, herd immunity would be effective enough that not only would people with phobias be protected, but they also wouldn't be causing any harm to anyone else. The fact that anyone is at risk right now for diseases like measles and polio is because of anti-vaccers, not because of people with phobias.

My point was that saying people are contributing to the problem just because they can't man up and do it is insulting. It's a complicated problem, and I don't think it should be as simple as saying "well, people with phobias should just find some way to suck it up and make it work", because unless you've experienced that same level of fear, I don't think it's fair for anyone to act as if it's an easy thing for other people to do*.

*Bear in mind, however, that I'm talking about giving adults grief over this. Whether or not you should force your children to get vaccinated if they have a fear of needles is a totally different debate that I'm not even going to get into. I'm only talking about adults, capable of making their own decisions, who hate the anti-vaccine movement and who want to get vaccines, but just can't bring themselves to do it because it's just too awful of an experience -- and telling those people that they're to blame all because they can't face their fear... >_> Phobias aren't as simple as a "just face your fear and get over it" sort of thing. Honestly, I see them as being pretty much akin to mental illness -- something that a person can't control and can make certain things very difficult to someone despite it being so seemingly easy to everyone else. And, just like mental illnesses, I just don't think it's right to judge other people and say that it's as easy as "just do it" when it isn't. If an adult with a fear of needles says that they wish they could get vaccinated but that their fear is just too much for them, I don't think we should give them grief for it.

Throwing the public safety aspect of vaccines makes this a more complicated issue, I'll admit. But, at the very least, all I was trying to say is that it should be accepted as a complicated issue -- and not as simple as "nah, having a phobia isn't an excuse -- people should either have to face their fear or knock themselves out or something". If you still think that not getting vaccinated leaves risks for a person and everyone around them, then, yeah, I agree with you -- but I also think that, well... if I was a person who had a crippling fear of needles and who wasn't getting vaccinations because of it, even though I already hate the anti-vaccine movement, and I know that I'm putting myself and others at risk and I already feel guilty about that... well, being called "part of the problem" all because of a phobia that I wish wasn't an issue for me and that I've already tried and failed to overcome would probably sound incredibly insulting, and even damaging. >_>

And if someone can find a way to get vaccinated despite their fears, then, that's great -- I wish it were that easy for everyone. But unfortunately it isn't. And if an adult decides that their fear is just too crippling, then I don't think they should be given grief about it or act like they're a bad person for not being able to overcome a crippling, irrational fear.

Not to mention the whole fact that, if anti-vaccers didn't exist, then people with phobias could remain un-vaccinated and diseases like measles would still be on the path to extinction because herd immunity would be effective enough that people with phobias would still be protected and not present a risk to anyone else, so... yeah.

But, I know, anti-vaccers do exist, which makes this a more complicated problem -- I just don't think people with phobias should have the blame shouldered onto them just because they've tried and failed to overcome a fear that they can't control. So, while it's unfortunate that people with phobias aren't being vaccinated, I don't think they should be blamed for it -- if anything, we should be blaming anti-vaccers, because, once again, if they didn't exist, then people with phobias wouldn't be presenting a problem by remaining un-vaccinated.

That's all I was trying to get at.
 
And I'm fine with coming off as insulting when children's safety is on the line.
I want to say "I guess that's where we disagree, and I'll step away from this conversation now", but that would probably make me look like a horrible person who places people's ~feelings~ over the lives of others, and I wouldn't want that to be my last contribution to this discussion. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to explain myself any better than I already have, so...

This post is a trainwreck and I have no idea how to put my thoughts into words right now. ...And I guess that is a pretty good reason to step away from this debate.
 
I'm not saying that it isn't worth the risk -- I'm saying that, if grown-ass adults are deciding that they can't handle the awful anxiety of going through with an immunization, then they shouldn't be having children.
Fixed it!

I can't even count how many times I had to deal with needles when I was pregnant. I had to get an amniocentesis while I was pregnant my middle daughter to ensure that her lungs were fully developed so that I could be induced. You haven't experienced agony until you've had a needle shoved through skin that's already stretched beyond limits, and then wiggled around to search for minuscule pockets of fluid while trying to avoid a fully developed infant.

If they don't like needles, they shouldn't be having kids, and if they're worried about their kids freaking out about needles....well, they shouldn't be having kids. Immunizations aside, there are dozens of other reasons why a child will have to deal with a needle. That argument is absolutely pointless, and invalid. Unless they're planning on their kids living in a bubble with padding everywhere, and then they're just twisted. =/
 
Fixed it!

I can't even count how many times I had to deal with needles when I was pregnant. I had to get an amniocentesis while I was pregnant my middle daughter to ensure that her lungs were fully developed so that I could be induced. You haven't experienced agony until you've had a needle shoved through skin that's already stretched beyond limits, and then wiggled around to search for minuscule pockets of fluid while trying to avoid a fully developed infant.

If they don't like needles, they shouldn't be having kids, and if they're worried about their kids freaking out about needles....well, they shouldn't be having kids. Immunizations aside, there are dozens of other reasons why a child will have to deal with a needle. That argument is absolutely pointless, and invalid. Unless they're planning on their kids living in a bubble with padding everywhere, and then they're just twisted. =/
Like I said, I'm leaving kids/parenting out of the discussion.

I was talking specifically about the idea of giving other adults grief for not being able to vaccinate themselves (not anyone else...), despite having tried and failed to get over it. Like I said, it's a complicated issue. That's all I wanted to say.
 
The Anti-Vaccers arguments stem from "research" that doesn't stand up to peer review. It is a movement born from misstrust of science and goverment, fuelled by scare-tactics and ignorance.
I love it when people type my thoughts for me. It's very convenient.
 
If an adult doesn't want to get vaccinated, that's a different story. They're old enough to make their own choices, and they have to live with them. I don't really have the choice. As a diabetic, my doctors recommend that I get every vaccination, and maintain my boosters, and I do. For me it's not an option. I'd rather have some line of defense against something that could potentially put me in the hospital for weeks, or at worst, kill me. If a little shot can do that, then sign me up. I've had every vaccine out there, including the flu shot, and I haven't experienced a problem yet. But that's me. I know a lot of people who end up getting violently sick after the flu shot, and they refuse to get any afterwards. That's on them. Adults are capable of deciding what they want to do.

However, I do think they need to be responsible for their actions. If they know they're not vaccinated for something, and they're going around someone with a compromised immune system, they should warn that person.
 
Personally I'd put bigger criticism on the adults than the children for a few reasons.

1) Child aren't nearly as good with fear. To expect them to cope as well as an adult is flat out unrealistic.
2) They don't have the legal authority over their shots. If they have them or not is strictly up to their parents, so it's the parents who should be judged and critiqued.
3) A Child also likely lacks an understand on the ramifications of illness, all they see is the needle and scream.

If we're going Parents of Unvaccinated Children VS Unvaccinated Adult though? The parent get's the bigger critque.
But let's not pin anything on the kids themselves, they're victims in this as the full mercy of their parents (sometimes bonkers) views.
 
Personally I'd put bigger criticism on the adults than the children for a few reasons.

1) Child aren't nearly as good with fear. To expect them to cope as well as an adult is flat out unrealistic.
2) They don't have the legal authority over their shots. If they have them or not is strictly up to their parents, so it's the parents who should be judged and critiqued.
3) A Child also likely lacks an understand on the ramifications of illness, all they see is the needle and scream.

If we're going Parents of Unvaccinated Children VS Unvaccinated Adult though? The parent get's the bigger critque.
But let's not pin anything on the kids themselves, they're victims in this as the full mercy of their parents (sometimes bonkers) views.
Sometimes people forget that there are plenty of parents out there who let kids make their own decisions. Yes, I know how idiotic that sounds, but it's the truth. There are some times I will let my kids decide things, and there are some vaccinations where I let them make the choice. Those were the optional vaccines that aren't really required, or I think aren't entirely necessary for them at their age. The immunization for HPV was one of them. When the nurse asked me, I told them to talk to my kids about it. They aren't sexually active, and I don't see that happening anytime in the near future, so I figured it was better for them to make the decision, because there is going to come a time when I'm not in the doctor's office with them, and they're going to have to learn how to make those sort of choices for themselves. However, these are my older two children who are teenagers. When they were younger and it came time for shots, they could cry all they wanted, but they were getting them whether they liked it or not. Yes, some people would call me heartless, but I really don't care. I'd much rather be heartless for five seconds of their life and know that I did what I could to protect them from an illness, than have them suffer through something a whole lot worse than one little pin prick.

But there are parents out there who aren't like that. Their kids cry, and they cave in. It doesn't matter that their child isn't old enough to make an informed decision. No is no, and that's all they hear.
 
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Sometimes people forget that there are plenty of parents out there who let kids make their own decisions.Yes, I know how idiotic that sounds, but it's the truth. There are some times I will let my kids decide things, and there are some vaccinations where I let them make the choice. Those were the optional vaccines that aren't really required, or I think aren't entirely necessary for them at their age. The immunization for HPV was one of them. When the nurse asked me, I told them to talk to my kids about it. They aren't sexually active, and I don't see that happening anytime in the near future, so I figured it was better for them to make the decision, because there is going to come a time when I'm not in the doctor's office with them, and they're going to have to learn how to make those sort of choices for themselves. However, these are my older two children who are teenagers. When they were younger and it came time for shots, they could cry all they wanted, but they were getting them whether they liked it or not. Yes, some people would call me heartless, but I really don't care. I'd much rather be heartless for five seconds of their life and know that I did what I could to protect them from an illness, than have them suffer through something a whole lot worse than one little pin prick.
That's all fine (in fact I support it for teaching independence), if done responsibly. Keep it to more convenience shots like Flu Shots since those are rarely lethal, just annoying. Something like HIV isn't outright denied but rather delayed (though personally I wouldn't advise delaying this, cause you both don't know about what heat of the moment could happen. And/or someone they meet might just be a very sick individual) cause that's not something that can't be caught passively, it has to be done with a very specific act.

But, the important thing to remember here is this is also highly dependent on the parent still regardless. That child was raised by the parent, so they're likely going to make whatever choice they were raised towards growing up. A child has a parent who believes Vaccines cause Autism? They could choose no just cause they were raised to think that, but the parent can then feign "I didn't do it! My kids did!". And in those cases I'd still be putting the judgement on the parents for messing with their child's head like that.
But there are parents out there who aren't like that. Their kids cry, and they cave in. It doesn't matter that their child isn't old enough to make an informed decision. No is no, and that's all they hear.
And those parents deserve critique just the same. It's their responsibility to do what's best for their kids, may they complain or not.
 
However, I'm one of those people who believe in order to deal with a fear, you have to face it at some point. A fear of needles is no reason not to have your kid vaccinated.
While I do agree with this, I have a few problems with it. When it comes to extreme fears, such as trypanophobia (fear of needles), it's best to ease into it slowly; going in guns blazing like that is far more likely to make it worse than it is better. If you want your child to not be afraid of needles, I can tell you right now that holding them down is not the way to go.

Of course, I am not a parent, and I don't claim to know how to raise a child, I'm just speaking from my general knowledge of psychology as well as personal experience. Take that as you will.
 
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I say to any anti-vaxxer out there is that you're just plain wrong.

Vaccines helped us eliminate smallpox, as in kicked its ass into next week. Yes, there's still strains of it, but as long as the gov doesn't fuck things up, it's going to stay there. These little things have helped us keep various deadly diseases under control by providing a controlled 'simulation' for the immune system to fight against. Is it perfect? Hell no, but are we humans perfect? Again no. However, just like evolution, it can be adapted to become more suited(and thus better) towards pathogens. Yes some people are allergic which is why you sign a wavier and acknowledge the fact that someone might get harmed.

I have also personally been vaccinated and never suffered any long term problems. I did feel pain though, but it's better than having a fever that would wreck me. In the end, vaccines are beneficial and perhaps one day everyone can see its wonderful effects... oh who am I kidding, there's always going to be one nut job screaming it's the end of the world.

But at least we nearly eradicated smallpox. Has any other plant or animal done that?!
 
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