What's so bad about vaccines?

Discussion in 'THREAD ARCHIVES' started by Mid, Mar 23, 2016.

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  1. The Anti-Vaccers arguments stem from "research" that doesn't stand up to peer review. It is a movement born from misstrust of science and goverment, fuelled by scare-tactics and ignorance.


    There is no real link to autism, the man who claimed it and published the find has been discredited and lost his medical licence, yet people quote him like gospel. Vaccines are a major factor as to why we don't all die from smallpox and the like. herdimmunity and immunization are vital to a species such as us, who live packed into cities by the millions.
     
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  2. Nope. Not going to get into it! I'm just going to say that I completely despise the entire anti-vaccination movement, and I hope they all end up with hooping cough. >_>
     
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  3. Let's bring back Lepresy!
     
  4. The sexiest disease of them all! I'll bet if that starts going around, all those women will be fighting over which one of there kids is getting vaccinated first.
     
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  5. The following is the most nuissanced and comprehensive video about anti-vaxxers on the internet.

     
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  6. No, this video isn't actually supporting the anti-vaccine movement, because that would be stupid -- but it does do a pretty good job of explaining how this movement got started and why so many people are buying into it.

    The problem with the anti-vaccine movement, though, is that it isn't just the anti-vaccers who are at risk for all these diseases they're bringing back. I mean, firstly, I certainly wouldn't want the innocent children of anti-vaccer parents to catch any of these awful diseases just because their parents said no. And then, beyond that -- there are plenty of people, kids and adults, who just can't get vaccines, for a number of reasons. Some people are allergic to certain compounds in the vaccine, some people have a crippling fear of needles (I'm talking legit phobia levels) that makes getting a vaccine way too stressful of an experience. And these people certainly exist -- I've met people from both camps. And in both cases, these were people who understood that vaccines were good and who knew that they otherwise should get vaccines, but... given their circumstances, I certainly couldn't blame them for not getting vaccinated.

    Now, here's the thing -- normally, these people, even though they can't get vaccines, are protected by herd immunity. Even though they aren't vaccinated, everyone around them is -- which means that the disease is very unlikely to spread to them in the first place. So, if everyone who could get vaccinated did do so, then the people who unfortunately can't get vaccinations would still be fine. The problem is that the anti-vaccine movement is causing a lot more people to not get vaccinated, which means that herd immunity isn't working anymore. The people who can't get vaccines now are at risk, because of people stupidly buying into the anti-vaccine movement.

    So, while I know that all you meant to say was "I hope the anti-vaccers catch these horrible diseases because they deserve it", let's not forget that anti-vaccers not only put themselves at risk, but also put their innocent children at risk (exposing them to diseases that could be fatal -- much more fatal to infants than adults, anyway), and they also do the same to plenty of kids and adults who would be getting vaccinated if not for allergies or phobias that make it either impossible or unfeasibly difficult for them to do so. And... yeah, I wouldn't wish this kind of shit on any of those innocent people. >_> I mean I hate to pull out the ol' "think of the children" cliche, but... seriously, think of the children. @_@ The anti-vaccine movement is some seriously bad fucking news that's putting lives at stake. Lives that don't really have a say in all of this.
     
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  7. Let's not forget that getting vaccinated doesn't make you immune to any one disease, it just makes you far less likely to get it. However, if the people around you stop getting vaccinated, then the likelihood of getting sick goes up quite a bit. Anti-vaccinators are putting more than a relatively small group of people at risk, if things keep going at this rate, the entire population is at risk for getting a whole slew of potentially deadly diseases that are otherwise easily avoidable. It's really sad the amount of people who don't understand the concept of herd immunity, because I'd imagine that if they did, we wouldn't be having this problem right now. Honestly, why isn't the government trying to education people about this?
     
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  8. Short answer? People double down on their shitty, misguided beliefs when faced with contrary evidence. You could literally suffocate them with medical journals, and those would be rendered invalid by a single crappy website that reaffirms their shitty beliefs.

    It also doesn't help that trust in the government is at a huge low right now (seriously, a huge part of Trump's appeal and success is he's marketed himself as an outsider who isn't a political stooge), and people idolize celebrities because we created a culture that obsesses over them, so when an insane bitch like Melissa McCarthy makes a claim that vaccines gave her son autism, despite that claim being proven so so wrong on multiple occassions, people flock to her because it's an emotional response.

    Individually, humans are intelligent. As a group, we're fucking dumb as a sack of retarded, inbred jellyfish that have been deprived of stimuli their entire lives.
     
    #10 Dervish, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
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  9. Because the people following the anti-vaccine movement wouldn't trust the government, anyway. It would just be perceived as more propaganda, and more attempts at "covering up the truth", and would be promptly disregarded.
     
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  10. ^The best visual I've seen as to why being Anti-Vax is completely idiotic.
    Even if we the "Vaccines cause Autism" rumour was true.

    Now, I will grant the anti-vac movement one thing. Incidents like the H1N1 proved the quality of them are not perfect, that there was a clear case/incident that a lot of awful effects snuck through testing because public panic demanded that the vaccine got made quickly. Is it a reason for people to go anti-vaccine? Nope. Is it a reason to limit yourself to the vaccines for lethal diseases and be more critical of the field? I'd say so.
    My Mom is actually one of the Anti-Vac people and the fact the doctor lost his license is actually a reason she does listen to him.
    They don't view the loss of license as "This guy isn't legit" but rather they go full on conspiracy mode and view it as "This guy gave up his Career for us! And the Doctors try to cover it up! This man's a hero!".

    I'd find it rather hilarious if it was wasn't an actual view among my own family members. o_o
    I'd have to disagree with this being a valid defence though.
    If that big a deal they can take it while asleep.

    Even if it's terrifying they're doing the same stuff the Anti-vaccers do.
    They make themselves an exception, and rely on others to cover them, while they themselves remain a medical danger to those around them.
     
    #12 Gwazi Magnum, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
  11. OH, and, let's not forget, there are also a lot of people out there who don't get vaccines because they think they don't need them, fueled by the anecdotal evidence of them being lucky enough to have not caught the flu during seasons when they didn't get vaccinated (and while there are a number of reasons why this could've been the case, luck being one of them, it doesn't change the fact that not getting vaccinated still puts others at risk...). And people who think that vaccines just don't work or that they actually make people sick, because of that one time that they tried to get a flu shot and then got sick with the flu shortly after. ...Despite the fact that the flu shot takes a little while to really be effective anyway, and they probably just got vaccinated too late into the season for it to do them any good. ...And, nevermind the fact that the flu shot is never a guaranteed success anyway, seeing how scientists have to predict what the most prevalent strains of the flu will be each season, and they can't always be 100% correct, but... Yeah, there are a lot of people out there who aren't exactly strongly anti-vaccine, but still just don't get vaccines for themselves, primarily due to just not understanding how vaccines and herd immunity work... >_>
     
  12. Yes, because it's totally practical to put people under anesthesia every single flu season. >_> I'm sorry, but it just isn't practical for a lot of people, and I can understand why they wouldn't want to go through the hassle of it. (Never mind the fact that being put under with anesthetic always has a slight risk to it, so undergoing anesthesia an unnecessary number of times is really not recommended.)

    And no, they aren't doing the same thing that anti-vaccers do -- because anti-vaccers preach that vaccines are bad and that no one should get them, and they prevent their children from getting vaccines, as well. Anti-vaccers aren't expecting other people to cover for them -- they often happen to be covered by other people and they're lucky for it, but they aren't hoping for it -- because they want all those other people who happen to be keeping them alive to also stop getting vaccinated.

    People with phobias of needles, however -- assuming they aren't also of the anti-vaccer variety -- do know that vaccines are good and that they shouldn't be getting them, they just... can't bring themselves to do it, because of a crippling phobia. They tell other people to get vaccines and recognize that they're good, but can't get them for themselves for reasons that are totally understandable. Hell, one of my friends falls into this category, and not only does she wish that it were easier for her to get vaccinated, but there have also been a few times when she's managed to find some roundabout way of getting vaccinated (apparently some vaccines are offered in the form of nasal sprays as opposed to injections, specifically for cases like hers). And if she can get those vaccinations then she does. But she can't handle needles because they throw her into a fucking panic attack and sometimes even make her faint. So I can understand why she wouldn't try to get vaccinated if she doesn't have an alternate choice -- especially since, knowing her financial situation, I'm willing to bet that her insurance doesn't cover needing to be put under with anesthetic every time she gets a fucking flu shot, and that such an option wouldn't even be affordable, even if it was practical. (And I'm fairly certain the free vaccine clinics that you'll find at someplace like CVS don't offer anesthetic, either.)

    So no, I don't think that people with phobias fall into the same category as anti-vaccers, at all. >_> They aren't preaching that vaccines are bad or causing other people to jump on that bandwagon -- they just personally have something that prevents them from getting vaccines (and phobias aren't exactly contagious, unlike ideologies). And the best part is that, normally, such a small percentage of the population would be protected by herd immunity. And people with phobias of needless aren't threatening herd immunity -- anti-vaccers are.

    And, I'm sorry, but I think telling people with phobias of needles that they're just as bad as anti-vaccers, despite the fact that they want to get vaccinated and want people to know that vaccinations are good and hate the anti-vaccine movement as much as the next guy, all because they can't be expected to go above and beyond and have themselves knocked out every single flu season, be it for reasons of practicality or even simply not being able to afford it, is kind of a shitty thing to say. >_>
     
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  13. I'm not talking the one's that avoid people taking sick days, I'm talking the lethal diseases here.
    I never said they were just as bad, I said they had the same effect.
    Ok, I'll grant that one.
    America seriously needs to wake up and get over it's fear of people being allowed medical assistance.
     
  14. If they didn't put me under when they literally stabbed an 1/8 inch drain tube through my abdomin (they only used numbing ointments; I fucking almost screamed in agony), they aren't going to do it for someone who has a fear of needles. There's a lot of prep work and questions and tests hospitals do before they use anesthetic, and for something as simple and quick as a vaccine? I doubt any doctor would do that. Imagine how overburdened hospitals would be if they had to put even 10% of people getting vaccinated under. At most I can see some anti anxiety medication, but past that? Doubtful.
     
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  15. Aren't the more lethal diseases usually the ones that people are vaccinated against when they're an infant, though?

    And if not... well, if someone really wants to get vaccinated then I suppose being put under is an option for the more serious things. But if that isn't practical for someone then I can totally understand why they would remain un-vaccinated. Again, these people would normally be protected by herd immunity -- and that's good. That's why herd immunity is worth protecting. It's the people who can easily get vaccinated but aren't (or who aren't letting their kids be vaccinated, for no reason other than their own stupid biases) who are the problem.

    People with these kinds of phobias were protected by herd immunity before the anti-vaccine movement was a problem. It's only when the anti-vaccine movement came up that a lot of these diseases are even being thought of as legitimate risks again.

    Except, they don't. Like I said, prior to the anti-vaccine movement, people with crippling phobias were basically in the same boat as people with allergies -- a small handful of people who would get vaccinated but can't, and who are protected by herd immunity, therefore making it so that those few people not being vaccinated really isn't a problem at all. It's the anti-vaccine movement that's putting other people at risk, because it's a movement, not an isolated handful of people. It's encouraging other people to not get vaccinated, and it means that children who have no say in what's going on also aren't being vaccinated, despite them being at a way higher risk of dying from a lot of these diseases than adults.

    So no, they really don't have the same effect. If anti-vaccers didn't exist, people with phobias really wouldn't be presenting an issue, because herd immunity would be strong enough to protect them, just as it was strong enough to protect them before the anti-vaccine movement started.

    The only thing these people have in common with anti-vaccers is that they themselves aren't getting vaccinated. They differ in the sense that they aren't getting vaccinated because of factors that they can't really control, and they differ in the sense that they aren't encouraging other people to follow in their footsteps, or trying to stop their kids from getting vaccinated. In this way, they have a lot more in common with people who are allergic to vaccines than anti-vaccers.

    And my point was that saying people with crippling phobias are "basically just as bad as anti-vaccers" is downright insulting to the people who wish they could easily get vaccines and who also hate the anti-vaccine movement because of all the needless disease and death it's causing. Even if we pretended for a moment that every country in the world offered free healthcare, being put under is still a more risky and more difficult procedure to even schedule an appointment for. And when getting vaccinated means needing to either A) allow your entire brain to think that you are fucking dying and sending you into a panic attack that is the most terrifying and nightmarish experience possible, or B) going through a thousand phone calls to schedule an appointment for being put under, accepting the slight risk that you might not wake up (which is always present when anesthesia is in the picture -- slim, but present), and then needing to find a friend who can drive your drugged ass home while you recover... yeah, I can understand why vaccination just really isn't possible for a lot of people who have crippling phobias. Which is precisely why I said that trying to blame these people, and claiming that they're contributing to the same problems that anti-vaccers contribute to, is a really shitty thing to do.
     
  16. My oldest daughter has a serious phobia about needles. It took me and six nurses to hold her down for her to get her 7th grade immunizations. Fortunately, she's pretty much done until she's ready to go to college. X_x
     
  17. That's rough, I hope she has a clear bill of health moving forward, because with what I've had to deal with, I'd be screwed if I had a phobia. Last trip to the hospital involved daily bloodwork at 3am, creating a new IV site every 3 days, and the afformentioned drain tube. Before that, my medicine was self administered with an autoinjector.

    I still have visible marks from the IV sites I had in January, and the bruising from 3 burst veins in February took weeks to clear.
     
  18. Usually. But then there can be two exceptions.

    1) New Vaccine for a new deadly disease comes out later
    2) You had an anti-vac parent, realized their theory was shit but still avoid it because of the phobia
    Personally though I don't like anyone relying on Herd Immunity unless if it's an outright medical necessity.
    Allergies I can understand, because a lot of bad shit (like death in extreme cases) can happen from it.
    Anxiety? No matter how bad it is you have one miserable day and then you're out.

    And normally I try to be really understanding of people with such fears.
    But it crosses a line once it puts the well being of children in danger.
    I get they aren't actively trying to make the situation worse.
    But they still act as potential carriers.
    That's.... That's really brutal. o_o
    Shouldn't such a thing be easily available for stuff like that?
    I'm talking a lot less than 10%, I'm talking just the cases where for someone they didn't already get a lethal shot as a child.
    Basically if it's a brand new vaccine, or if they happened to have an anti-vac parent and then snap out of it later.
     
    #20 Gwazi Magnum, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
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