>Implying kilts are skirts
I think I'm legally obligated by my government to murder you, now.
I think I'm legally obligated by my government to murder you, now.
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Kestrel
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Well, you have my IP address, so when should I expect you? Would you like sugar in your tea? Would it be inappropriate to make William Wallace or toxic masculinity jokes?
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Dervish
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@Kestrel Ah, sorry. Misinterpretted what you were asking.
For me and I imagine most men, probably not. There's still deep seated cultural norms that are hard to shake, and I think subconsciously most people respond to "traditional" (Quotes because that changes all the time with each generation) gender expectations.
However for what I mentioned as traits being masculine, it's kind of weird to explain in a satisfactory way, but I think a woman can embody the same traits and be feminine while doing so. It's not so much "masculine is this, feminine is that", I don't think. There's a crossover appeal to the traits I mentioned, I think. To use something as a unisex example that can be masculine or feminine, cooking. It's equally impressive to find someone of either gender who does it well.
I really hope I got what you were asking for this time.
For me and I imagine most men, probably not. There's still deep seated cultural norms that are hard to shake, and I think subconsciously most people respond to "traditional" (Quotes because that changes all the time with each generation) gender expectations.
However for what I mentioned as traits being masculine, it's kind of weird to explain in a satisfactory way, but I think a woman can embody the same traits and be feminine while doing so. It's not so much "masculine is this, feminine is that", I don't think. There's a crossover appeal to the traits I mentioned, I think. To use something as a unisex example that can be masculine or feminine, cooking. It's equally impressive to find someone of either gender who does it well.
I really hope I got what you were asking for this time.
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Dervish
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Exactly it. Of course, there's always going to be exceptions, but some traits aren't gender specific, I don't believe.
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Kestrel
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I believe you've linked these before and I read quite a bit of it. What I'm interested in, though, is how you view this topic personally.
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Kooriryu
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Personally-personally?
I think #thediscourseisamess but peep that entire 33 seconds of embarrassment put on National U.S. Television.
EDIT: But y'know, I realized was just too fuckin' lazy to clarify the last coupla times I've linkdump shit is that, y'know, okay, good for you booboo for readin' these things I've linked (though I'm kinda puzzled at the "before" since this is the first time I've linked shit specifically about masculinity) are mainly for the kids who haven't read about these sorta things, never thought to read about these sorta things, and never knew these sorta things were being discussed much less written about in academic contexts for years. All those individual word links, and that goodreads booklist are for those kids. Open up their horizons'n shit, get them to realize things don't happen in a vaccuum because blah blah, children are our future or whatevs. kbai
<3 xoxoxoxoxoxo
EDIT: But y'know, I realized was just too fuckin' lazy to clarify the last coupla times I've linkdump shit is that, y'know, okay, good for you booboo for readin' these things I've linked (though I'm kinda puzzled at the "before" since this is the first time I've linked shit specifically about masculinity) are mainly for the kids who haven't read about these sorta things, never thought to read about these sorta things, and never knew these sorta things were being discussed much less written about in academic contexts for years. All those individual word links, and that goodreads booklist are for those kids. Open up their horizons'n shit, get them to realize things don't happen in a vaccuum because blah blah, children are our future or whatevs. kbai
<3 xoxoxoxoxoxo
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Well I wasn't going to put my two cents in this well but I was thinking about the thread it was inspired on and decided to say my bit.
I think masculinity means something different to each person, and for me personally, its definition is becoming more and more vague as mascuilinity itself becomes less and less important to me.
I define masculinity in the dictionary sense as being things associated with being male. Most of them are in my opinion super dated, like being physically strong, reliable, etc. Women can be physically strong and reliable as ell, but these traits are nowhere near being perceived as feminine. I guess the only traits I would agree are definitely masculine are scientifically factual things, like facial hair or deep voices, but I don't think a clean-shaven guy with a higher voice is any less a man, or do I think of him as being feminine or androgynous, so again, idk.
Overall like I said, the concept of what is or isn't masculine and whether or not a person fits the definition of being masculine is just something I care less and less about.
As a straight female, I'm attracted to men, not necessarily traditional masculinity. I've had just as massive a crush on tall, broad-shoudlered guys with beards, bass voices and traditionally masculine interests as I have on slim, clean-shaven nerdy guys who speak in falsetto, so I think it's safe to say that degree of masculinity has nothing to do with what I find attractive.
Majority opinion of what's masculine is, in my opinion, 1) severely dated and based on archaic gender roles that need to die. A lot of things considred masculine, especially in regards to interactions with women, are straight-up offensive when you think about them. 2) so flexible that they defy an overall definition. No matter how obviously 'masculine' something appears to be, there will always be a group that disagrees; it's impossible to define a hard list of masculine traits because it's different to every person.
I kinda rambled a bit, but yeah
TLDR: It's different in defintion to everyone, and for me personally, I mostly just don't care about it. I think it represents archaic gender roles that we should be trying to get past.
I think masculinity means something different to each person, and for me personally, its definition is becoming more and more vague as mascuilinity itself becomes less and less important to me.
I define masculinity in the dictionary sense as being things associated with being male. Most of them are in my opinion super dated, like being physically strong, reliable, etc. Women can be physically strong and reliable as ell, but these traits are nowhere near being perceived as feminine. I guess the only traits I would agree are definitely masculine are scientifically factual things, like facial hair or deep voices, but I don't think a clean-shaven guy with a higher voice is any less a man, or do I think of him as being feminine or androgynous, so again, idk.
Overall like I said, the concept of what is or isn't masculine and whether or not a person fits the definition of being masculine is just something I care less and less about.
As a straight female, I'm attracted to men, not necessarily traditional masculinity. I've had just as massive a crush on tall, broad-shoudlered guys with beards, bass voices and traditionally masculine interests as I have on slim, clean-shaven nerdy guys who speak in falsetto, so I think it's safe to say that degree of masculinity has nothing to do with what I find attractive.
Majority opinion of what's masculine is, in my opinion, 1) severely dated and based on archaic gender roles that need to die. A lot of things considred masculine, especially in regards to interactions with women, are straight-up offensive when you think about them. 2) so flexible that they defy an overall definition. No matter how obviously 'masculine' something appears to be, there will always be a group that disagrees; it's impossible to define a hard list of masculine traits because it's different to every person.
I kinda rambled a bit, but yeah
TLDR: It's different in defintion to everyone, and for me personally, I mostly just don't care about it. I think it represents archaic gender roles that we should be trying to get past.
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ASTA
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Masculinity's role in modern society, at least to me, is intricately entwined with the role of men in society: they are the ones who maintain and advance contemporary civilization by tending to its infrastructural needs, shielding it from outside invasions and internal incursions, protecting its most vulnerable members from physical harm, and conceiving novel innovations and technological wonders. Men are guardians and providers. That's what evolution engineered us to be.
I guess you could say that I define it biologically---mostly because I've read too many anthropology articles, books, and blogs to sincerely believe that gender is a mere social construct and that a male's sense of masculinity can be fundamentally redefined by simply telling him that he can be a girl if he really wants to and if he really tries hard enough.
I guess you could say that I define it biologically---mostly because I've read too many anthropology articles, books, and blogs to sincerely believe that gender is a mere social construct and that a male's sense of masculinity can be fundamentally redefined by simply telling him that he can be a girl if he really wants to and if he really tries hard enough.
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I like a man to be - a man. That is to say; dependable, reliable, self-confident, and inteligent. As for being "manly" in that personality-wise sense, sure, its also a nice thing to see. Assertiveness, decisiveness, strength of will. As long as being manly dont translate to being chauvinistic/sexist, vhich can be a very thin line, IMO. And many men dont know how to toe that line. Knowing how to toe that line is also a sign of a "real man", for me, vho can be manly and sensible, at the same time.
Modern society (at least in the West) dont make much distinction betwen masculinity and chauvinism/sexism, imo. Men become far too "effeminate" and watered-down, passive, in order to conform to it. Thats the negative consekvence of liberalism, and I dont see much suprise there. I wont go in-to more elaboration on the subject, since I think my views there are kuite wel known by now. Aniway, part of the problem is the attitude of some women too (thankfuly a minority), vho see masculinity as "threatening". That only denotes ther own insecurity and fear, so they tend to want to bring men down to that "level" too, in order to feel less thretened themselvs. And to me, that tendency leads to overall indecisiveness and weakness in a society as a vhole, since the trend is to go "down" in resolve, instead of "up". There is a middle-ground betwen the two, and I think ppl shuld strive for that.
Also, I think the terms "masculine" or "feminine" in general, are way too exclusive, and based in archaic societal norms and dogma. Vhy cant any one person be both, to one degree or another, regardles of gender? I have alot of traits that ppl wuld consider "manly". I'm direct, assertive, and I like many of the things that wuld be considered "manly". That doesnt make me any less "feminine", vhen I want to be.
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- Fantasy is my #1; I will give almost anything a chance if it has strong fantasy elements. Post apocalyptic, superhero, alternate history, science fantasy, some supernatural, romance, and a few fandoms (especially Game of Thrones) are also likely to catch my eye.
I like to start out from a biological and evolutionary perspective (because we evolved as a sexually dimorphic species and that has a huge impact on gender things), then add on the purely social aspects as secondary because they vary so greatly from culture to culture. Thus, due to biology and how our species developed, I see the core aspects of masculinity as physical strength and endurance and being protectors and providers. Here in the United States, the social stuff added on to that includes stoicism (low emotional affect, minimal complaining in general, enduring shitty things), confidence, independence, self-sufficiency, valuing logic over emotion, being extroverted, ambitiousness, and then general appearance things like facial hair and short/medium hair and certain colors being socially coded as masculine or feminine.
However, it's worth noting that the differences between masculinity and femininity are highly blurred nowadays, especially in the US and other western nations. It's more appropriate to say the above explanation is traditional masculinity, because in modern times things like independence and self-sufficiency are valued traits in women as well. Hell, most of the traditionally masculine traits are now more neutrally valued in people in general, and only people who hew to a traditional view of masculinity and femininity will really give a crap about whether or not someone fits into them. The majority of people (at least here in Portland, Oregon, which is a pretty progressive place so it could be vastly different in other parts of the country) seem to not care about people fitting into one category or the other, and that's for the best imo.
However, it's worth noting that the differences between masculinity and femininity are highly blurred nowadays, especially in the US and other western nations. It's more appropriate to say the above explanation is traditional masculinity, because in modern times things like independence and self-sufficiency are valued traits in women as well. Hell, most of the traditionally masculine traits are now more neutrally valued in people in general, and only people who hew to a traditional view of masculinity and femininity will really give a crap about whether or not someone fits into them. The majority of people (at least here in Portland, Oregon, which is a pretty progressive place so it could be vastly different in other parts of the country) seem to not care about people fitting into one category or the other, and that's for the best imo.
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Shadon Xarian
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It didn't mean anything to me really. I always assumed I was quite weak, so if I was feminine, then so be it. I was me ^^ (Later I discovered I was actually quite strong, though by that point I was already set in how I saw masculinity so being what one would consider masculine didn't effect me at that point... And I was in the middle so I didn't have the ego boost from it, nor did I fall victim to it. I was considered Masculine in my strength, and views of things, yet feminine in things like my "Impossibly smooth fingers" (Quote from my friend)
And what's it's role in modern society? To me, just social groups. When I see masculinity, I normally stay away as I don't like that group of people. So it's more of a warning sign in my eyes rather than playing a role. I'm sure it plays a role in society in a greater sense, but I honestly don't really know what it would be.
And what's it's role in modern society? To me, just social groups. When I see masculinity, I normally stay away as I don't like that group of people. So it's more of a warning sign in my eyes rather than playing a role. I'm sure it plays a role in society in a greater sense, but I honestly don't really know what it would be.
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