What is Equality?

[ASTA]

This isn't how genetics works. Things like handicaps and mental disorders can appear in families with no genetic history of such things.

I know, but the objective is to reduce their relative frequency within the given human population as subsequent generations come and go, not to erase them entirely. Most mutations are injurious to a species, but a fair assemblage of them do, in fact, prove practical in the long run (so long as the environmental medium that a species is in permits those beneficial mutations to accumulate and express themselves more thoroughly within the gene pool by way of successful procreation between surviving carriers of the mutant genes).

While it is true that if you kept breeding specimens for ideal traits over a number of generations (ex: cattle), your theoretical "master race"...

I'm not gunning for a Nazi experiment, Brovo.

This takes thousands of years.

For species that number in the thousands. Humans are seven billion strong. The more of a species you have, the greater the frequency of mutations, and the faster evolution plays out.

The more logical--and humane--scientific study to pursue, should you continue to wish scientific progress to the issue of equality, would be biological engineering. We already know it works because we've applied it to our food in things like GMO's. We could use said biological engineering to remove disadvantageous traits at birth, ala GATTACA, such as mental disorders, birth defects, and so on. There are still a number of human rights issues that go along with it, such as the "homo superior" argument, but not nearly as numerous or profoundly disturbing as with the field of Eugenics.

Look, how is eugenics even remotely more disturbing than biological engineering? Both result in the eventual outmoding and following replacement of distinct segments of select human demographics and neither has to result in the unnecessary suffering of innocents. If you're going to call eugenics inhumane, you're going to have to push the same degree of antipathetic scrutiny against biological engineering (and even natural selection itself). The latter is absolutely unforgiving and cares little for the petty man-made concepts of civil rights, but the former has the potential to bring about inequality of an entirely new--and downright intimidating--breed.

Eugenics is largely state-supported selective breeding. People are free to practice this by consciously abstaining from mating with certain members of civilization or aborting defective fetuses when they are detected. Artificial genes aren't needed and no one has to go and try to compete against some Kenyan with artificially-induced myostatin-related muscle hypertrophy in a foot race while they're still running off of last year's muscular system.

Why not combine eugenics and biological engineering? Lay the foundation for biological engineering by upgrading the current human stock. You'll have less to worry about when refined biological engineering technologies inevitably surface.

I may be wrong, but it sounds like you've read one too many biased, anti-eugenics texts and you're therefore automatically associating the "e-word" with firing squads, Zyklon B chambers, and yawn-inducing Nazi mad scientists from the Wolfenstein series.

It doesn't have to be like that. That's why I support ethical eugenics, not the crap the US or Germany pulled off.

 

[Brovo]

For species that number in the thousands. Humans are seven billion strong. The more of a species you have, the greater the frequency of mutations, and the faster evolution plays out.

Um... What? The size of the population is completely irrelevant to the rate of mutations. It's the rate at which multiple, successive generations can be produced that matters. This is why microscopic organisms that go through thousands of generations on a yearly basis evolve much faster than human beings do, even if you sequester them into tiny numbers in tiny jars. This is why species variation in, say, insects, is significantly greater than that of mammals, totally irrelevant of population density: Because insects generally have much shorter lifespans than humans and thus derive a significantly greater number of mutations in the same time frame as humans do.

Just to get dogs out of wolves and cows out of Aurochs took us thousands of years of selective breeding. Mammals don't evolve all that fast by the time frame of an individual human life. The only way to even remotely achieve rapid change within a mammalian species generally requires a lot of inbreeding, which is why ferrets (my favourite animal ever), especially white ferrets, have huge health complications and can die from diseases as simple as the common cold.

See, the reason I can't advocate for eugenics, is specifically because I've studied the consequences and tradeoffs of selective breeding. It's simply more logical to research the capacity to remove genetic defects at birth than it is to strip away the civil rights of the human race to choose who it is they wish to breed with, and whether or not they're allowed to breed in the first place--which is core to eugenics.

Look, how is eugenics even remotely more disturbing than biological engineering?

Which should answer this question quite handily: Because biological engineering doesn't require stripping away basic human rights and freedoms to function properly in the first place. If we have to sacrifice our humanity for progress, then the progress hardly matters at all, because the generations who inherit it will know not a reason to enjoy their genetically superior lives.

Eugenics is largely state-supported selective breeding. People are free to practice this by consciously abstaining from mating with certain members of civilization or aborting defective fetuses when they are detected.

Yes, people can choose to do this, and they can choose not to do this. The inherent value of someone's life is not for you or I to decide. It's certainly not the place of a government to decide this, either. The value of a human life is sacrosanct, you can't put a numerical value to human life. At least, not one that can be considered remotely humane. Look at Stephen Hawking, he is physically incapable of even a simple act like walking, and yet he's contributed significantly to the scientific literature. Had he been judged at birth by your metric, he would have been aborted for the sole crime of losing in the genetic lottery.

Do you see what I mean yet? It's one thing to have an abortion because you're not ready to be a parent. It's totally another to have one because you feel that your imperfect child isn't worth your love and care. Human beings aren't machines: We're not just tools. We're a lot more complicated than that, as frustrating as that is.

 

[ASTA]

Do you see what I mean yet? It's one thing to have an abortion because you're not ready to be a parent. It's totally another to have one because you feel that your imperfect child isn't worth your love and care. Human beings aren't machines: We're not just tools. We're a lot more complicated than that, as frustrating as that is.

No, because your argument hinges profoundly on idealogical and ethical sentiments that I do not agree with rather than on quantitative data and sound reasoning that I could not hope to counter or refute. I could literally come forth and say that the cognitively impaired are costing US tax payers billions of dollars each year in medical fees and misconduct costs and you would still find it wholly necessary to hammer me into utter submission with your own special brand of ethics.

I could see if eugenics was ineffective or didn't outright work in principle or practice, but that's simply not the case. I'm a eugenics proponent because I believe that it could elevate many of the internal and external issues that are ravaging developing (and developed) countries around the globe. Biological engineering (which has a long way to go before it becomes an effective replacement for modern eugenics) is just a plus in the short and long run.

Not interested in going in circles with you over this. It's just going to degenerate into an internet yelling match between two dickwads who think that the other is undeniably wrong for X reason.

Doesn't help that I've been censoring myself during this entire discussion as well, so my counterpoints are going to be both disingenuous and diluted by default.

Enjoy the rest of the thread. I'm done.

 

[Peter Feels]

^lol

 

[ASTA]

^lol

Anything to avoid the ban and preserve my sanity.

 

[October Knight]

*Reads the thread title then all posts*

Equality is cutting the pizza slices so that everyone get's the same size piece.

 

[unanun]

Eugenics isn't going to solve anything. If you actually looked at the problems with third world countries, one of which includes crippling IMF loans and ethnic violence, I don't see how you could breed that out of people. Also, it's kinda hard to breed poverty and reduced socioeconomic opportunity out of people.

Anywho, here's something interesting to consider: most of your life, traditionally, after 25 was kinda pointless. Why? At that point, you've passed on your genes, so evolution doesn't care about the bad things that happen later in your life. However, with professionals choosing to reproduce later and later, that makes the next 10 years of genes more relevant. I expect a gradual lengthening in lifespan, controlling for medical advances.

 

[Jorick]

You guys realize that eugenics really has nothing to do with the topic started by the OP, right? Make another thread for a eugenics debate if that's what you're into, but it has already gone on way too long in this thread that isn't actually about eugenics. :|

 

[Brovo]

^lol

 

[Peter Feels]

You guys realize that eugenics really has nothing to do with the topic started by the OP, right? Make another thread for a eugenics debate if that's what you're into, but it has already gone on way too long in this thread that isn't actually about eugenics. :|

This guy makes an excellent point.


To me equality is I get to slap you all once pretty good. Then you all get to slap me once pretty good. And we then all go about our business.

 

[Hellis]

This guy makes an excellent point.


To me equality is I get to slap you all once pretty good. Then you all get to slap me once pretty good. And we then all go about our business.

What if the slap is a double tap?

 

[Peter Feels]

What if the slap is a double tap?

You're over thinking it, sport.

 

[Nitro]

If you dumbass's want equality, then I'll tell you how to get it.

First off, STOP MAKING A BIG DEAL OUT OF IT.
Seriously, If a white person dies due to a shooting caused by a black person, no one bats an eye. You take that person, who is marked as armed and dangerous and you shoot him because he pulled his gun on you first, POLICE BRUTALITY, HE WAS DEFENDING HIMSELF.
Bullshit. He is armed and dangerous, his has committed a murder, assaulted a police officer, resisted arrest.

But take that same scenario, but make the shooter white... Makes it not matter as much dont it.

Second, Your holding yourselves back.
I think you figure out that one

 

[Lucia the Light]

Equality and equity aren't the same. Equality means everyone gets the same thing. Equity is when everyone gets what they need.

Think of it like this: Take a child from a middle class family in North America and a child who grew up in poverty in Uganda. The child from North America needs a laptop for school. The child from Uganda needs somewhere to get clean water.

Equality is giving them both a laptop. Equality is giving them both a well with water in it.

Equity is giving each child what they need.

 

[Asmodeus]

Equality would be if everyone in this thread wasn't made cocksure by anonymity, wasn't afraid of being drowned out, and had the prospect of social embarassment.

All the discriminatory and hurtful things said so far are because posters know they can get away with it, because they are afraid they won't get ratings if they're not edgy enough, because they've been encouraged by a fellow douchebag, or because it's been established as a mark of honour to daub the walls of the internet with rhetoric.

Sparse resources; inherited ideology; broken consequences. This thread reflects society.

If all of us were put into a room, face-to-face, we'd be really polite and cooperative at first. But the moment someone had the chance to hide, mutter to his bro, leave the room or post on Twitter, the equality would fall apart. You would need a teacher in the room to slap those people with a ruler.

Inequality is caused by misbehaving children.

Equality is making sure we all hold the ruler.

 

[Select]

If 'equality' is the condition of being equal in magnitude and value, then everyone should start the game with the same gear and weapons! Everyone should embark on the journey together in a tight cluster so that nobody is first or last. And when we reach the entrance of the dungeon, we should attempt to squeeze through at the same time! That should definitely work! Because as physics tells us, many things can occupy the same space at once!

 

[Lucid]

This is one of the reasons why I dislike this group. I've been here several different times. It would seem that each time I come on the lack of an actual group declines. One comes to a site to escape the crap of what goes on in the world but here it feels like being in the middle of a shoot out. Everyone is so eager to share their opinions as being right, backed with facts as if they know something when in reality none of you know anything. You feel justified by what you read, you haven't actually experienced anything. It is really laughable to be honest. You think you all matter because some of you donate to this group but in reality would you be so quick to state your opinions outside a forum? I doubt it. Iwaku has become a nesting ground for teenagers, college students, and those with no real worth than to troll or drama induced whiny bitches believing they are entitled to be douchebags for whatever disease they believe they have.

 

[Torsty]

TIME TO LOCK ME UP, BITCHES!!!



I mean - the thread. Lock the thread.

 

[Hellis]

TIME TO LOCK ME UP, BITCHES!!!



I mean - the thread. Lock the thread.

STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!



Iagreefullywithyoursentiment.

 

[Saito Hajime]

Wurds

Such seemingly in depth knowledge of Iwaku for someone that joined today, hmm? ;)