VAULT WAR - Chat & Questions

unanun said:
Why is dice [randomness] such an integral factor to the discussion?
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mostly because the discussion has moved on to maybe using the Wushu/Asmo's Greed systems, which are built around being awarded extra dice for moves by roleplaying well.. Those systems don't really work without dice.
 
Porg said:
mostly because the discussion has moved on to maybe using the Wushu/Asmo's Greed systems, which are built around being awarded extra dice for moves by roleplaying well.. Those systems don't really work without dice.
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There are ways of playing Wushu diceless. In fact, before the Wushu wiki got hacked, there were at least one or two diceless houserulings but that's not so important.

This is what's important:

Asmodeus said:
I was told to do mind-numbing simplicity, and I attempted just that. And I did so with the assumption that it would be so simple that no major holes would be picked in it and roleplaying would remain centre-stage.
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My sentiments are similar.

I came late to this hoping to see spiffy writing and cooperation--a brave new chapter of the Mythos well under way.

What I found was the rules steadily being de-simplified, roleplaying de-emphasized to the point of some prefunctory afterthought, and an aversion to dice that strikes me as odd in light of all the other things people are willing to impose.

But non-automated dicerolls are iffy? True. I guess it drives us back to the real problem: There's more competiveness and distrust between the lot of us than interest in collaborative creation and good sportspersonship. :P

I think the key things I need to say are

1)To my disappointment, Vault War, to the players, seems to be no longer--if it ever was--about the roleplaying. I was interested to know what everyone's plans for their characters and their emotional arcs might be and how these incarnations of our characters might change even more. Maybe I skipped over those parts in my rush to catch up? Someone link me to the posts, if I did.


2)Let's all forget about Wushu for a moment. We can all agree this game is facing a problem. The competitive aspect is completely overshadowing the roleplaying, but the competitive aspect was part of the original point. It's a conundrum.

Vault War has a competitive aspect which is apparently critical enough that it looks as though VW's resurrection or doom lies in making the gaming aspect work. I mean, it's dominated just about all OOC talk.

If we aren't just accepting that the roleplaying aspect is being completely relegated to afterthought flavor text, and we aren't completely jettisoning the conquest aspect into being a separate IC-only thing, then it seems reasonable to somehow connect invested attempts at roleplaying to rewards of tactical advantage. Whether Wushu, Asmo's Greed, or something else heretofore unmentioned, dice in themselves mean nothing to me and probably anyone else in favor of them. The thing is finding a solution somehow pleasing to enough people for this thing to limp along.

Until someone proposes something else that seems functionally sound, I'm personally leaning toward Asmo's Greed or dropping the gaming aspect altogether for some collaborative/semi-collaborative over-arching freeform plot.

The purpose of this post was to clarify my feelings and logic.

My opinion is that fixating on strategy yet complaining about dice seems like trying to have one's cake and eat it too. If dice seem too constraining, then let's go full freeform. If we can't go full freeform because arbitration is necessary... Well, again, trust. No system or refusal of system will remedy that. It begins with the players and unity of purpose.
 
I JUST WANTED TO CONQUER SAKURA MUSUME AND COMPLETE MY BRAINWASHED IDOL GROUP OF EVIL ;_;

On serious note: I never really cared about the rules until people started complaining and the game was closed down. I only asked if I could do this/that within its scope, but I was always fine with whatever it was that made the concept run. Now that this has been closed down, I'm seriously discussing/creating balanced rules in hopes of getting the game running again.

However, I share Coffee and Asmo's sentiment with regards to just roleplaying the concept - as long as I get my gosh-darned IDOL GROUP OF EVIL.
 
Well, I'm all for freeform.

I could judge the outcome of battles and tell people when victory conditions have been met.



We could even have different objectives, depending on the location of the battle, the stats you want to buff, or the powers you're using. Maybe we can "Mythosequate" the monthly themes that we have on Iwaku. So instead of Pirate Month we have an alignment in the Vault that causes pirate worlds to be powerful places, or unstable places. Call them "Genre Storms" or some such, that ravage the Abyss.


The random element can be in the ever-shifting nature of locations, the twist of victory conditions, and what people want out of the scene. Even roleplaying a gritty defeat could lead to a bonus for you. Hero's Journey and all that...
 
I like how everyone's characters were hanging out, that was fun. If this thing gets up and running again I'm going to try and role play more.
 
I'd like to thank everyone who honored my request to keep discussing this, but this thing isn't seaworthy yet.

How do we proceed from here?

I believe there was some dispute as to whether or not additional sub-goals and challenges should be implemented as possible incentives. Let's continue addressing opinions, pros, cons and possible compromises.

Asmo, Paorou? I want you two to have it out here in particular. Everybody else is, as always, welcome to join in.

I'd like to say something more thoughtful and rousing, but sleepy is no way to be for meetings and big projects.
 
I was thinking of keeping things purely roleplay based, but have different PATHWAYS that characters can develop down.

Each pathway is a trope or archetype, or even a Tarot Card.


For example:


THE FOOL: "Lose a battle in such and such a way"

THE MENTOR: "Give another character a gift with which to win a fight"

THE ALLY: "Have a long fight that ends with you gaining respect for your enemy"



Link all these pathways together on a nice chart, so that people can plot where they want to go. And when they achieve certain levels in certain archetypes, they get a free power that they can play like a card to alter the Vault.



Also, each month we have a theme (Or GENRE STORM) that changes things up a bit. For example, This month the Science Fiction planets swell in power. Therefore, the following pathways cannot be accessed:... and the following archetypes can use their powers twice:....




As Paorou objected, this would be like having the Writing Challenges in the middle of a roleplay. But what's so bad about that? I love it when roleplays force me to react to unforeseen challenges.
 
There are two more reasons that made my writing lax:

One, reading all the posts in the vault record. At some point I just started look at the numbers.

Two, having to read through RP's that (let's be transparent here) were graveyarded due to lack of interest or poor writing, and then having to base something upon that content.

So I crafted a character that could be rich but essentially had zero writing requirement.
 
Well, that's kinda the entire point of the game... spinning new stories from the potential of the graveyarded ones.
 
Writing challenges in the middle of a roleplay sound like a great way to explore a character and get into new situations. One problem I could see with this roleplay is a relative lack of interaction, making each new action rather monotonous with nothing to really respond to. Not a lot of incentive to write anything decent! Writing challenges could help with that, but they would not completely solve the issue. The members of this roleplay have to actively want to create a good story and great roleplaying environment for everyone. -nod-

Asmodeus: Not sure how the pathway thing would work exactly, but I like the incentives to interact with other characters in more ways than just 'destroyyyyyy'. I also like that it ties in to Iwaku's horoscope and whatnot. x] More complete feel. As long as the powers given do not greatly alter any one character's chances at succeeding at the overall game, it could be neat? And genre-storms to fit Iwaku's monthly themes would be amazing.

Other than that, I'm not sure how much I can add to the discussion having not gotten a chance to play yet. I do have a question, though: have you guys ever tried a completely free-form version without any stats before? I've heard mention of previous iterations of this, but it seems to mostly be stat-based?
 
Asmodeus said:
As Paorou objected, this would be like having the Writing Challenges in the middle of a roleplay. But what's so bad about that? I love it when roleplays force me to react to unforeseen challenges.
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This analogy is a bit weak. The "challenges" are usually very open-ended and not the least bit constraining. They're often more like light, image-based writing prompts. It's not a complaint, but I just thought it beared mentioning.

I see nothing wrong with what Asmo described so long as we keep it fun.

As suggested in the cbox, pathways could remind players that we don't all have to scramble for the classic hero role. Asmo, since you proposed it, if your pathways are implemented, I expect you to help members stay civil and understand what they and they're fellow players are doing.

Incentives, clear options, and focus sound good to me. As long as we don't have to go back to nonsense like me removing humor and trickery from my posts in order to fit some narrow assigned niche while staying out someone else's, you may count me as being in favor of the pathways.
 
Sounds like there's some interesting ideas being tossed around here, wish i could say more than that but I seem to have lost track of my thought train for this.

I'd totally be up for a more freeform/story/character based rp, or basically whatever direction we could take it, I just like the concept a lot. (the reason i was so involved with the mechanics stuff was I enjoy talking about it, but I'm not against scrapping them in the Vault wars)
 
Okay, I'll put some ideas together and come up with a proposal.

*barricades the doors against Paorou-Zombies*
 
Ok so.. I know Asmo just got a new job and has been busy, but I had a slow day at work on Friday and was thinking about this all day..
I came up with a couple of things, not sure if they are good, but I figure if I post here It might spark something I dunno, worth a shot.

So here we go.

You have 3 stats:- Power, Age, Sanity.

You use these stats in combat, whether that be conquering an unoccupied world or attacking another player.


The Basics
Your starting world is randomly generated/chosen (or however Asmo does it) by the GM(s?). Your beginning stats are calculated from this world.
Power: Is equal to the world's amount of replies. This is your go-to offensive stat and also doubles as your health.
Age: Is based on the date of the first post. This is your go-to defensive stat and is used to heal and block damage.
Sanity: Is based on the date of the last post. This is your subversion stat, used to mess with the enemy's power levels while making yours stronger.
These are your base statistics but don't worry they will increase quick enough.


Conquering Unoccupied Worlds

You may attack any worlds adjacent to any world you own when the thread list is arranged in different ways.
-This hasn't changed so I won't go into it.
If a world is unoccupied you may attempt to take it for yourself.
When conquering a world you may make either a Power or Sanity attack.
To conquer a world using a Power attack you must have higher total Power than the target thread has replies.
To conquer a world using a Sanity attack you must have double or higher total Sanity than the target thread has replies.
-I have made both of these target the target's Power for a couple of reasons. First, it better reflects the changes to the pvp Sanity. Second, it means that if you know your own stats it's easier to tell at a glance whether you can attack a world.

Once you have successfully conquered a world you may increase your own stats.
If your Power/Age/Sanity is lower than the conquered world's Power/Age/Sanity OR is below 20 you may choose one of the following:
-Gain Power equal to the conquered world's Power (it's replies)
-Gain Age equal to the conquered world's Age (from the table)
-Gain Sanity equal to the conquered world's Sanity (from the table)
If you Power/Age/Sanity is higher than the conquered world's Power/Age/Sanity AND is above 20 you may choose one of the following:
-Gain 1 Power
-Gain 1 Age
-Gain 1 Sanity
-This will hopefully mitigate some of the power creep, but allows people who are really low to gain quickly up to a point. It also means people can keep gaining Sanity and Age once they've reached the max allowed by the tables. It also means that people with stupid high Power cant just become crazy powerful too easily.


Fighting another player.
it is inevitable that at some point some players will be combatting other players. There are some restrictions the cycle has put in place however to nurture growth.
You may only attack worlds adjacent to a world you own.
You may join an battle an ally is involved in.
You may not attack a player who's total Power is less than half or your total Power. -This is to stop day-1 superkills. Since they aren't fun for anyone, and to allow less powerful players to grow.

The stats in PvP.
During your turn you may make a move using one of your three statistics. The effects of your move depend on which type of move you make.
-You may make a Power attack. Reduce your Power by a chosen amount to deal that much damage +1 for each turn passed to the enemy's Power.
-You may make an Age defense. Reduce your Age by a chosen amount to block that much damage from an enemy's Power attack(s). This happens before you take the damage.
-You may make an Age heal. Reduce your Age by a chosen amount to gain that amount + 1 for each turn passed, back in Power. You cannot exceed your total Power by doing this. This happens after taking any damage.
-You may make a Sanity attack. Reduce your Sanity by an amount to deal half of that amount in damage to your opponent's Power. you gain Power equal to the damage dealt. This can exceed your total Power. You cannot defeat an opponent using a Sanity attack. This can be used undetected (please see the stealth attack rules below)
-Not too much different here really, though I've re-casted Sanity more as a powerdrain attack than armour piece or whatever. I figured it reflects the idea of using subterfuge/mind control/other things to subvert a person's forces or power to make them work for you.

Turn progression.
With these actions in mind I'd suggest this format or order of proceedings for an average turn.
1. Decide your move and declare it and the amount spent on it.
2. Roleplay it.
3. Calcuate the damage you take or are dealing out and declare it. (This is done after you do your turn to accommodate blacking with age shields.)


Running away.
I think it's important to have a running mechanic where you can keep your worlds intact. though that might just be me personally.
-You may run only if your Power stat is below half. (Ghost worlds can run at any time but are forced to attempt to run on turn 3)
-To run you must expend the entirety of one of your stats.
-Your opponent may attempt to stop you from running. To stop you they must expend points from a single stat that exceed the amount you spent.
-If they successfully stop you running you are refunded half of what you spent to escape. They are refunded nothing.
-If you successfully escape the combat ends with no victor and neither world can be attacked by the other for a week.


Stealth Attacks
When attacking another player sometimes it's appropriate to take a more subtle approach. This requires clever use of Sanity attacks and some restraint.
-When you attack another player you may declare it as a Stealth attack. Provided you uphold the restrictions on stealth attacks they cannot make an attack against you. They should still make roleplay replies to your moves however. Just because they cannot find the source of the power drain doesn't mean they don't know it's happening.
-If you use any move other than a Sanity attack you will be discovered and subject to retaliation.
-If you deal more than 10% of the enemy's Power in a single move you will be discovered.
-Once you exceed 20% of the opponent's Power you will be discovered.
-Once the combat has lasted for 3 turns you will be discovered.
-Turns spent doing Stealth Attacks count towards the turn count for Power attacks and Age heals for both sides.


Absolutes.
When you conquer a world you may create an Absolute instead of increasing your stats.
-When you make an Absolute you may not gain any stats from the conquered world.
-To create an Absolute choose one of the three stats. The Absolute has a value equal to the stat the chosen world has.
-Absolutes function as free moves in Combat. You may only use an Absolute once per combat but it stacks with any other move you wish to make. eg: you can make an Age defence while attacking with a Power Absolute.
-You may use up to two Absolutes per turn.


Character Affinity.
When you create your character choose one of the following effects.
Confluence:- Gain +1 to Power attacks when you have higher Age than the opponent.
Reality Bending:- Gain +1 to Sanity attacks when you have more Power than the opponent.
Dreamweaving:- Gain +1 to Age heals When you have more Sanity than the opponent.
SoulArts:- Gain +1 to Age defence if you have less Power than your opponent.


Additional suggestions.
-Multiple roleplay locations like the Archive. Like maybe the ruins of Nerf or something. Just to keep it fresh and have it so we aren't all forced to be shouting across a room filled with like 20 people. though I imagine a fair few of us will still be in the room with 20 people in it.
-A gladiator arena that runs on a Wushu system?
-Maybe have GMs award additional stat boosts (like the odd +1) for good posts to conquer worlds?


Well.. hope this.. helps in some way.. or at the very least people enjoyed reading it =D
 
I tried reading through it late last night .. which isn't a good time to try and understand it.

In PvP, are expenditures permanent or are numbers restored after a fight?
 
In the meantime, is anyone up for doing an informal freeform roleplay?

I wish I could offer more comments on the proposed game system, but I will play whatever you guys decide on. x] I am more interested in the potential stories!
 
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