TRANS ATHLETE: Women complaining about victories "losers"

Space Cowboy

You’re gonna carry that weight.
Original poster
DONATING MEMBER
FOLKLORE MEMBER
Invitation Status
  1. Looking for partners
Posting Speed
  1. 1-3 posts per day
  2. One post per day
  3. Multiple posts per week
  4. 1-3 posts per week
  5. One post per week
  6. Slow As Molasses
Online Availability
Omnipresent
Writing Levels
  1. Give-No-Fucks
  2. Advanced
  3. Prestige
  4. Adaptable
Preferred Character Gender
  1. Male
  2. Primarily Prefer Male
Genres
Open to anything, but particularly enjoy gothic horror, urban fantasy, science fiction, post-apocalypse, and steampunk.
So ok, I've never been politically correct, and this is going to be another one of those times. trans people make a choice. They are entitled to that choice, but the reality of how that choice affects your life is outside your control. So if you choose this life, then you choose to eliminate sport competitions from your life. And hey, life is NOT FAIR. If life was fair chocolate would have no calories...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Red Thunder
I don't believe that being trans is a choice. Going through with HRT and transitioning, sure, that's a choice—but to say that a trans person is making the choice to be trans is the same as saying a gay person is making the choice to be gay. It's not about choice, it's about deciding whether or not you're willing to live your life trapped in a body you don't feel right in or choosing to take drastic steps that will undoubtedly lead to discrimination.

Honestly, it's hard to say where I stand on this issue. I believe that people who were born AMAB (assigned male at birth) have some advantage over those AFAB (assigned female at birth), at least where physical sports are concerned.

At the same time, in my opinion, sports are for fun—so "professional" sports seem ridiculous to me.
 
Last edited:
I'mma slide in with some knowledge! 8D

Sports have rules. Almost all of them include weight, strength, height, etc, etc. And things like boxing, you're going to be in a weight class that matches your size. There are only a few exceptions where this doesn't come into play. So even if you are trans, you're not likely going to end up in a sport or pitted against someone that so grossly physically outmatches you or be in a position where you have a huge advantage over someone else. News like this is just sensationalism to try and create bias against a marginalized group, the same way they had issues with gay people being involved in the military. (Do you remember when people had a fuss about gay guys seeing straight guys' penises? everyone's penises have survived. no one's boobs are getting molested by saucy lesbians)

Second, it's no longer true that women and men can't be physically equal, whether you are a muscle monster or a skinny super model. Human bodies are all vastly different sizes and strengths. There's just as many tiny little men as women. Just as many giant bear women as men. The averages on how men are typically stronger than woman is very misleading when it comes to the world of sports too, where ALL of the participants have been training for years to meet physical standards. This is where you have to remember that all these sports still have their rules and requirements for the ideal peak condition, so a transwoman with mighty muscles isn't going to show up to a match paired against fragile ladies. The only sport that I think this happens in is one of the fighting sports where people basically just sign up knowing they can maybe die and then fight whomever is also willing to maybe die. (And those sports are designed to be bloody and violent)

That being said, there's always going to be those ASSHOLES that are the exception to the rule and use loopholes and advantages to win. >:[ But that's always been an issue in sports. Stereoids, drugs, anything that can be used will be used. It's just important to remember that it's just a tiny percentage of jerks, and that most people go into playing their sport with good faith and respect.
 
Ehhhh alright. I'm not going to lie; I was avoiding this thread due to expectations a fight would break out at some point (still waiting, btw. Where mah trolls at). But I'd like to just respond, if you will, to a couple things mentioned…

There is a reason why we have gender separated leagues in the first place. I am aware that, historically, sports teams for women only started cropping up because we weren't allowed to play with men, or sports in general (because baseball field ≠ kitchen, gtfo women). But another factor to weigh in is the disparity between male and female physicalities. I am not referring to the outward appearance: it is true, as previously mentioned, that a man and woman can match both weight and height-wise, rendering them equal in respect to sports divided by weight class. But it is important to note that when it comes to most athletic capabilities, the male chemical makeup gives them an advantage, most notably in strength. Testosterone itself is one of the key factors in this, which during development allows males to have higher levels of muscle mass, bone density, red blood production, etc. This is WHY at some point in history (before trans women entered the running) female competitors with an above average level of testosterone were not allowed to participate due to having an unfair advantage over their fellow cohorts. This is not an issue of skill, as some would claim it is. This is an issue of basic biology.

Now of course, there comes the argument of "well, trans women are also made to have an acceptable, low level of testosterone as well before competing, so doesn't that level the playing field?" Which is definitely a good question. To which I answer with: Unless they've been on estrogen their entire lives, their muscle make-up is still predominantly engineered for a male body. Estrogen only controls body mass to a certain extent. Their past history as a male creates an uneven playing field for any of their fellow competitors. (i.e. Look at how easily and by what extent transgender women have been crushing national and world records in their respective sports).

Based on this, do I think transgender women should be ousted from sports activities? No. They have every right to pursue the lives and passions they enjoyed before their transition. However, it is faulty thinking to believe that their bodies are entirely equal to Cis-gender women. Honestly, I wish there could be a separate league for transitioned men and women (because I believe trans men have it rough too) but I don't think there are nearly enough athletes for that.

This is not a debate that should be whittled down to simple, hate-filled jargon. Every time I see a conversation about this, it never fails that I see insults thrown at the first sign of conflicting opinions. I do agree that there are a LOT of people who have issues with transgender people just...existing in general. And I agree, the media has not helped in it's sensationalizing methods; they would have you believe that transgenders are taking over the world when in fact they are a very small, marginalized minority. But I do know the term "transphobic" is applied too liberally these days. Not every naysayer is an enemy, per se. They might just be a medical studies nut, like moi.
 
I'm not a transphobic person. I don't begrudge anyone their life choices. I may not agree but I have never felt like anyone had to agree with me. I can't say I agree that being trans isn't a choice, but that's an entirely different debate. Thanks @Kuno for not labeling everyone who disagrees as a phobic or hater. I personally dislike using the word hate in regard to people. I don't expect this to turn into a free-for-all, but I did expect there to be a lot of different opinions and slants on this. It's honestly been interesting reading.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Red Thunder
I don't accuse people of transphobia lightly, as I understand there's a lot of misinformation out there. As long as you're civil and trying to learn, that's great. You don't have to understand, but you do have to accept that some people are different.

I don't mean to start a whole new debate, but I'm curious, do you think being gay is a choice @PoetLore? Or just being transgender? I know there's a huge difference between sexuality and gender identity, but I sure as heck would not say I chose to feel the way I do.

On that note, I don't think anyone chooses to feel anything. It just happens.
 
Last edited:
I thought I'd chime in just because I find the science of it fascinating where hormones are concerned.

I can see why people would be up in arms over all this, especially with the idea that there's an unfair advantage at play. I'm a data person, and I like statistics, so I usually like to go there to base my opinion. Transgender individuals make up approximately 1% of the population, which makes studying the effects of cross-hormone treatment difficult with relation to the cisgender population. As far as I could tell, there's not been a lot of cross-examination data between the two populations, but there have been same-group data comparisons - specifically related to transwomen pre- and post-transition, because that's the group that's caught the most flak. That said, those studies have their own bias as it was run by someone who is transgender herself. Not to say they're disingenuous - just that that's something to keep in mind when considering a single study where there's not a large consensus yet.

Where running is concerned, according to a single study, it showed that transwomen do indeed have significantly slower race times than before they transitioned, which is fascinating that estrogen has that sort of impact. According to that study, there was something called an 'age range differentiator' meant to calculate how different that post-transition race time stacks up against cisgender women. It said that there wasn't too much difference. However, that was a single study from a pop science article where I couldn't see methodology for how they calculated this age differentiator. As far as I could tell from that study, there's not a terrible amount of difference, but that is not to say a difference couldn't exist - and science is based on a huge basis of data, not just a single study. So there's room for interpretation.

When I started to dig into stuff like weight, it got even fuzzier. There just isn't a whole lot of data! Again, it's a very niche group, and a niche group INSIDE of a niche group. It's still a really cool field of study because we get to see just how much hormones can change the way the body 'orders' itself. Seeing as there wasn't much data, I decided to look at specifically what HRT does to the body and kinda form an opinion based off that. Muscle mass does significantly begin to drop, as well as fat intake increase, after starting estrogen treatment, alongside development of other tissues. What doesn't change, though, are the bones, the ligaments, the general integumental connective tissue, enough that some transwomen will have their bones shaved down for a more feminine appearance. In fact, estrogen maintains bone density in both men and women, so the skeleton you had when you're born is the one you just gotta live with. Here's the kicker that's interesting, and where more of my personal knowledge comes in, as I did a (very) short stint in forensic anthropology.

Humans are a rather sexually dimorphic - sexually differentiated - species of mammals. Men and women have very different skeletal structures, meant to leverage different muscles in different ways. From an evolutionary perspective, men were the larger sex with a real emphasis on long-distance-running and long-distance-chucking-things and in general throwing themselves at whatever is trying to eat the tribe. Women, on the other hand, developed with childbearing in mind, as well as long-term survival and so there was an emphasis on storing fat for lean times, for milk production, as well as keener color differentiation and peripheral vision, better peripheral senses in general, as women tended to hunker down in a single spot foraging with babies and toddlers while keeping on the lookout for a saber toothed cat looking for easy pickings.

How does that relate to sports? At lot of this is why we have segregated sports to begin with. Women have wider hips with a very different center of gravity, sitting lower, as well as a ligament system that wasn't intended for intense, hard running over long periods of time. Men, on the other hand, have very narrow hips and a ligament system meant for the opposite - intense running, long-distance, and just more heft in general on average. That system is set up and maintained via genetics, rather than hormonal control, so even with less muscle to work the same skeleton, the leverage system is different. It's the difference between using a single pulley for a fifteen pound weight versus five pulleys for a fifteen pound weight. I might pull at the same PSI, but I will definitely be pulling that fifteen pound weight up farther and faster with the five pulleys than the one just by physics alone. My supposition is that your average transwoman will be at very least as fast or as strong as your athletic cisgender woman. Of course, that's a hypothesis. There's a really in-depth cohort study looking into this very thing in Sweden with DEXA scans and CT scanning and blood samples pre- and post-transition, except that they haven't completed it yet...

That's not to say that there isn't room for the possibility that there is no difference, but it seems that transwomen athletes have had a pretty good track record (ha!) so far on average in whatever sport they apply themselves to. It would be interesting to see a category of only transwomen athletes and compare their statistics to their cisgender counterparts in a larger, longitudinal way. This is, of course, not to say that women shouldn't be in sports period because of biology, or that transgender individuals have no place in a competitive arena - but these are things to consider, especially where the safety of the participants are concerned going both ways, for transmen and transwomen. Personally, contact sports would be where I draw the line until there's more data as there is a real potential for harm in things like competitive wrestling, boxing, and MMA. Rowing, track and field, and other non-contact sports, it becomes less of a safety issue.

Sorry for the wall of text, biology gets dense....
 
@s p o o k

NO, I do not believe anyone is 'born' gay. I know this will probably spark even more debate, but I feel like this deserves a deeper explanation of my thoughts.

I am a born again Bible believer. In the Bible that means that I recognize that I have done things, said things and thought things that God warns in the Bible are sin. NO, I'm not a serial killer, or kleptomaniac, or even anything most people would consider bad, but I know what I am. Anyway, God provided my salvation in the death of his Son on the cross and I accepted that gift. I don't take any of that lightly. However, I know that mentioning this will automatically give a lot of people a bad taste in their mouth since most people who claim to believe are so horrible at communication the message that it actually turns people away from God instead of to his side as is intended. God loves every single one of his creations. So no one who breathes air is unloved by God, so I love everyone as well. Who am I to judge someone else's choices?

So...that is where my convictions and beliefs about life come from in total. I don't believe God makes mistakes. If he made a man or a woman he meant to do that. Now, I do know that we live in a very wicked and confused time where there is a ton of overload and information at everyone's fingertips. There is a LOT of pressure to follow feelings and run with them. I'm not sure that's wise. One thing I've learned in my many many years of life is that my feelings are almost never right. They are generally based on immediate gut reaction and not logical thought. Sometimes that's not the case but that's the exception in my life not the rule.

Having said all that, Please know that I think you're amazing. I KNOW God loves you. And I'm not ever going to throw what I believe in anyone's face. Now....if you ASK me...I'm going to answer, but I don't push that as I'm sure you can see in that I waited this many posts here before I said this.

Hopefully this will explain my posts a bit more...and I hope we can just agree to allow one another our separate views. Hugs*
 
  • Like
Reactions: Legens Legentis
@PoetLore, I'm not going to ridicule your beliefs. I appreciate the civil response, and of course we're both allowed our own opinions. You've never been unkind here, which is more than I can say for some.
 
Last edited:
@s p o o k , Thanks! I honestly think you're super! You're always helpful and kind to everyone, so that is my opinion of you and that's got nothing to do with anything else. it's who you really are!! hugs*
 
  • Like
Reactions: s p o o k