Topfreedom!

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ive been trying but SOMEONE keeps throwing buckets of crap at me and completely derailing any other input i could have.


Go ahead and see yourself on out now. I've asked you to be respectful to others in this debate and you're blatantly refusing.
How about you take some deep breaths, sleep on things, and come back when you can voice your opinion without being rude to your fellow members and carry on civil debate? Might keep you from getting in any real trouble.
 
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but here's my two cents. I think the problem lies not within breasts themselves, but the culture surrounding them. For the longest time, breasts have been seen as an erotic female body part and something that should generally be kept out of sight in public. And because that's the way it's been for the majority of humanity, the majority can't help but view breasts in a purely sexual manner. For example, many people prefer to use breast size as a measure of attractiveness. Whereas men general compete to get women with the biggest breast, some women are even willing to risk surgery in order to achieve the bigger set. In a way, we are all naturally immature. Though I've heard tell of cultures where a woman going topless in public is acceptable behavior, it would be incredibly difficult to incorporate that style of living in a society where most men, er... "perk up" at the very thought of exposed breasts.

Also, to add to this point, here's a nice little video by Vsauce on YouTube that might explain some things better than I ever could. Slightly off topic, but it makes some good points that can be directed back to this discussion.
 
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For the longest time, breasts have been seen as an erotic female body part and something that should generally be kept out of sight in public. And because that's the way it's been for the majority of humanity, the majority can't help but view breasts in a purely sexual manner.

Okay, there's a HUGE Western bias here. The Greeks were the first culture to purposefully sexualize breasts, and practically every culture to sexualize breasts has directly inherited it from them. This isn't something that is natural, nor is it something that "the majority of humanity" experiences. You might as well say that Democratic rights have been this way for the majority of humanity, and the majority can't help but view constitutional rights as intrinsic to government.
I get what you're trying to say, but this is not a biological aspect, it is purely cultural.
 
Sorry, Sabine. I'd gladly answer your response to my post, but this got out of hand far too quickly for my comfort level.

Abbreviated versions: look at Hatsune's post. That is very much my first point. And culture is entirely the subject, so natural or not culture needs to be taken into account.

Also, things need to be sexual because sexual attraction is what promotes genetic recombination. Beauty and lust are connected, and without sexual attraction it would be hard to call anything human beautiful.

Second point: I wasn't trying to say that public urination necessarily follows the same lines as breast feeding, only that saying it is "natural" isn't enough.

I wish you the best of luck keeping this under control.
 
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Sorry, Sabine. I'd gladly answer your response to my post, but this got out of hand far too quickly for my comfort level.

Abbreviated versions: look at Hatsune's post. That is very much my first point. And culture is entirely the subject, so natural or not culture needs to be taken into account.

Also, things need to be sexual because sexual attraction is what promotes genetic recombination. Beauty and lust are connected, and without sexual attraction it would be hard to call anything human beautiful.

Second point: I wasn't trying to say that public urination necessarily follows the same lines as breast feeding, only that saying it is "natural" isn't enough.

I wish you the best of luck keeping this under control.


I totally understand that. -_- I was hoping this would be a bit more mature.

But why do sexual things need to be hidden and weird? Lips are very sexual, but we have no problem putting on lipstick and showing it off. The waist to hip ratio is the defining element of female fertility- this has been scientifically proven. But we don't call every woman who wears waist-accenting clothing slutty or just looking for attention. Beauty and lust are connected, but why do we need to legislate against being beautiful or sexy in public?

Being natural isn't enough, but I think we should assume all natural processes to be human rights unless proven otherwise. Otherwise we'll need laws protecting our right to breathe in public. O.O
 
Goddamn curiosity tho, I caught that other shit.

So. PSA.

DON'T BE A FROLLO

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Like Even Esmerelda's side eyein' some shifty-ass excuses swearin' like booty shorts compel a motherfucker to try and overstep his bounds. This ain't The Exorcist, you ain't Pazuzu and we ain't Linda Blair.

via http://nijuukoo.tumblr.com/post/81219999818/muchymozzarella-merlions-twigwise-how-to ; Because it's always good to source your shit. ALWAYS.

Shit, why not go on twitter with this shit by some smart-ass fuckin' folk too:
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p.s. Fuck Robin Thicke, fuckin' poser-ass Beetlejuice lookin' fool.

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Because asshole behavior doesn't get excuses y'all. You do fuckass things, you are a fuckass gratz
 
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Okay, there's a HUGE Western bias here. The Greeks were the first culture to purposefully sexualize breasts, and practically every culture to sexualize breasts has directly inherited it from them. This isn't something that is natural, nor is it something that "the majority of humanity" experiences. You might as well say that Democratic rights have been this way for the majority of humanity, and the majority can't help but view constitutional rights as intrinsic to government.
I get what you're trying to say, but this is not a biological aspect, it is purely cultural.
Well thank you for that interesting bit of information, but I'm pretty sure I made no real mention to the biological aspect. More so that the cultural aspect has been around for so long that it has also become something that is, quote, "biological" or as I prefer to call it, natural. As it is just natural for a women to cover up her breasts rather than expose them in public. It's like trying to break a really bad, or addictive habit, it's almost impossible to break on it's own. Besides, and correct me if I'm wrong, but most women don't really have the incentive to break the so-called habit, they'd rather just go about they're lives like they normally would. Because despite what you might think, humanity as whole does not like change and will resist it if at all possible.

For the record, I'm not against it, but I'm not for it either. I'm just trying to approach the subject from a logical standpoint without providing any biased opinions.
 
OH SHIT, I'M ON A ROLL ANYWAY HAVE SOME MORE NICE OTHER THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN SAID NOT-BY-ME-BECAUSE-FOLK-GOT-ISSUES-WITH-HOW-I-CONDUCT-MYSELF

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Ayo Sabby, you should probably edit your thread for image heavy = slow loading warning 'cuz I image'd the fuck outta this thread.

<3<3<3
 
I feel like our society is way too immature to handle top freedom for women. Just look at this thread. There's too much controversy, and controversy leads to fighting, rude remarks, and if it's a whole nation debating this topic, violence could very well break out. Regardless of all your arguments, we are simply not ready to put such a plan into action.


If you think this would help gender equality, that's most likely not true.


Some men will always call women sluts, lose respect for said women and view said women as objects. Taking off our clothes will absolutely not help the situation. Quite the opposite. And if you want to be able to go topless as a means of sexual attraction, that's just fueling the fire.
 
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Well thank you for that interesting bit of information, but I'm pretty su I made no real mention to the biological aspect. More so that the cultural aspect has been around for so long that it has also become something that is, quote, "biological" or as I prefer to call it, natural. As it is just natural for a women to cover up her breasts rather than expose them in public. It's like trying to break a really bad, or addictive habit, it's almost impossible to break on it's own. Besides, and correct me if I'm wrong, but most women don't really have the incentive to break the so-called habit, they'd rather just go about they're lives like they normally would. Because despite what you might think, humanity as whole does not like change and will resist it if at all possible.

For the record, I'm not against it, but I'm not for it either. I'm just trying to approach the subject from a logical standpoint without providing any biased opinions.

Saying that it applies to "the majority of humanity" means it has to be biological. Right now Chinese culture is the largest group on Earth, and that's not quite a billion, much the less a majority. Saying that a cultural institution cant change, though, is pessimistic as Hell and has been disproved many times. I mean, slavery is a cultural institution that went on for longer, involved more discrimination, pervades more aspects of everyday life, has a HUGE economic impact... and we did OK getting rid of that in one generation.
We shouldn't do things because they're the easiest for our generation. We should do things that are the best for future generations.






we are simply not ready to put such a plan into action.


If you think this would help gender equality, that's most likely not true.

Maybe whether or not certain people are ready shouldn't determine legality. I, for one, am not ready to allow teenage mothers in pretty much any situation ever. Doesn't mean I think we should pass a law saying every pregnant teen must get an abortion. The law is meant to set daring new standards that haven't previously been universally agreed upon.

As for gender equality, do you know what's less equal than bare-chested women? Women covering their breasts. You might as well say that we should ban all women from the workplace because we get paid less than men- look at all the sexual harassment, the wage gap, the demeaning social attitude... but none of that means it's not helping equality. There is no requirement to equality stating that equality doesn't count if sick and twisted individuals use it as an excuse to commit crimes.
 
Saying that it applies to "the majority of humanity" means it has to be biological. Right now Chinese culture is the largest group on Earth, and that's not quite a billion, much the less a majority. Saying that a cultural institution cant change, though, is pessimistic as Hell and has been disproved many times. I mean, slavery is a cultural institution that went on for longer, involved more discrimination, pervades more aspects of everyday life, has a HUGE economic impact... and we did OK getting rid of that in one generation.
We shouldn't do things because they're the easiest for our generation. We should do things that are the best for future generations.
I don't think you're understanding my point here. You see, I disagree with that first statement somewhat. Take language, for example, or money, or clothes in general. Those things aren't necessarily biological, but the majority of humanity uses them and they've been around in our culture for so long that it comes naturally to us as a species now. And more from influential reasons rather than biological ones. It's not unreasonable to say that the same can apply to women exposing their breasts in public.

I'm also not saying that society can't change, I'm just saying that it takes time to fully change, a lot of time. We may have gotten rid of slavery, but it took America nearly another century to even establish prejudice against blacks as a wrongful doing and it will take many more years to fully get rid of racism. So we might be able to give women the rights to go shirtless in some places now, but the controversy will still be around for quite a bit longer, and so will the sexualization of breasts in the first place. It's not just a *poof* you don't have to keep them covered up now and people won't view them sexually anymore. No, that kind of cultural change doesn't happen overnight.
 
Hm. Now this is where I bow out. This is getting rather ridiculous.
 
something was said I feel needs to be addressed.

Slut shaming. I've seen a couple people use this word around. You don't have to agree with the movement, you can be loudly and proudly against it. But labelling the women who believe in and want the right to bare their breasts "sluts" devalues them. They become lesser, simply by labelling them as such. They're not "sluts" for wanting to go topless, and even if it is a sexual thing, they're not "sluts" for being sexual. With our society mindset, "sluts" don't have the same rights as non-slutty people, and that's a problem.


Addressing the topic itself, I agree that our society is not ready to have topless women be a normal thing. However, nothing has ever been changed by sticking to society's ideals. If the movement goes through, things are going to get worse for women, but it'll be temporary. As long as we can stick it out through the initial backlash, eventually, the pendulum will swing back, and it will become largely accepted. But before anything positive happens, we're going to have a period of pain, where the entire gender will be attacked because of this movement, even if you're not part of it.
 
woop woop why actually contribute when there's shit all over the fuckin' internet that says my shit all nicely and relatively nicely... mostly without my fucked up patois-ass slang and minimal goddamn swearing y'all. I'll even keep all this shit on easy mode too.

“It is illegal for women to go topless in most cities, yet you can buy a magazine of a woman without her top on at any 7-11 store. So, you can sell breasts, but you cannot wear breasts, in America.” —Violet Rose

"I swear to god I will lose my mind if I hear the “sex sells” fallacy one more time. Sex does not sell. If sex sold, we would see penises where we see boobs. Naked men would be on everything that naked women are on. Sex isn’t what they’re selling you. They’re selling you an impossible, pornographically fueled misogynistic idea of the perfect woman."

Breastfeeding: Biocultural Perspectives


"The SCAR Project is a shockingly raw, yet strikingly beautiful, photo series that shows a side of breast cancer we're not used to seeing: the reality."
-Forbes; Like even fuckin' Forbes touched on the fact even in trying to save people from cancer motherfuckers still found a way to make it about "huh huh.... bewbs." Tss, "Save the Tatas" my fat ass. Two and a half for you Forbes.

And you know it's fucked up when baby websites, websites about takin' care of the bbys, tips on bbs, tips on bbys for new parents, websites whose sole theme on the internet is just how to take some goddamn care of your bby... have to fucking function under this straight up oversexualizin' ass misoggybottomnistic fuckin' bullshit. Look at this fuckin' horrid slew.

http://www.momlogic.com/2009/08/stop_sexualizing_breasts_they_produce_food_breastfeeding.php

http://community.babycenter.com/post/a43953253/breasts_are_too_sexualized_for_breastfeeding

http://livelovesimple.com/tag/sexualization-of-breastfeeding/

http://mamamojo.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/breastfeeding-in-public-warning-offensive-content/

http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/breastfeed_public.asp

Fuckin' a y'all, these are just moms'n bbys just tryin' to live and all these rando-ass fuckwits gotta make it about some assbruise's potential red herring-lookin' fuckin' boner. Shit, you wanna see sexy breasts watch yo' ass a porn and keep your nose out other people's business. I mean there's more sad mommy&babyblogging articles but I gotta get thefuck on with this link tornado tho

Boobs are for Sex: Body Image, Breastfeeding & the Media part 1

Boobs are for Sex: The Sexualization of Pregnancy & Breastfeeding in Advertising Part II

 
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People shouldn't make a fuss over breast feeding. Unfortunately, they do... When I had my baby, I didn't once feel comfortable enough to feed him in public for fear that I'd get shamed or stared at. It's super important for the mama to be comfortable or else the milk may not flow like it should, so the baby might not stop crying anyhow. There are covers, though, that completely blinds observers from the act. "Udder covers", is what they're cleverly called, and they're easy to acquire. I get coupons STILL that can get me one for free, except for the shipping expense. So if this sort of right were to be granted, maybe the government could issue cost-free coverings for women. Or, make private places more available. The only places I've seen actual breast feeding areas are in malls of all places.

I can understand not wanting that sort of sight for children, for example, but if the mother has no choice but to breast feed right then and there, just tell your kids not to stare while not making a big deal about it yourself. *shrugs* That's what my mom would do, anyway. She'd cover ours eyes and tell us to politely look away, then everyone was happy. Otherwise, it's not difficult to find other methods of feeding. Breast pumps are wonderful things. I think those are becoming more available to women too, if they haven't already. I remember being offered one to use for free for a certain number of weeks before they'd start charging me.

Outside of the subject of breast feeding... I honestly wouldn't care if women wanted to be topless for whatever reason. I don't like seeing topless dudes all the time but I don't make a scene still. I agree with Helical, though. Our society's way too immature. And my thinking is just like Lulu's, where if we're going to make this change, we'll have to endure some pain. With time and patience, everyone would eventually adapt to it, I'd think. Boobs might even become less of a big deal because everyone sees them all the time. Who knows? We have to experiment to find out.
 
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I think Topfree is a great idea however now is not the time to have such a movement. At the moment women are still treated like less than, they are objectified and seen as sexual objects. They aren't given fair treatment and many have been victim to 'Well she shouldn't show so much skin if she didn't wanna get ----'.

So yeah it's a great movement, but the world is not ready for it unfortunately.
 
But when will the world ever be ready for it, then? The same argument has been used since whenever, for example, do you not think people said the same thing about women getting the right to vote? Our society will never mature unless we do, because guess what? We are what makes our society. Our society isn't some machine that's out of our control, we control it every day by the choices we make.

Unless we stand up for ourselves and say 'we won't deal with this bullshit anymore', change is never going to come. It never has, it never will.
 
The world will be ready for it when we stop babying the people who harm us and letting them get away with all the shit that they do. The world will be ready when we stop glorifying a boy who stabbed a girl because she rejected his invitation to prom. The world will be ready when we don't talk about a group of boys wasted future after they raped a girl and video taped it. The world will be ready when girls don't get acid thrown in their faces for anything that they did or rather didn't do.

But we haven't. And so the world is not ready.
 
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Unless we stand up for ourselves and say 'we won't deal with this bullshit anymore', change is never going to come. It never has, it never will.

This is how I feel. We can't stop global warming by saying "well, I'd like for people to recycle and use less resources... but they're not ready to do that yet so oh well, fuck you mother nature".
Society as a whole might never be ready for change. That doesn't mean that change shouldn't happen. We can't wait for everyone to get on board; society isn't a perfect democracy where everyone will agree on what is best for the whole.
 
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The world will be ready for it when we stop babying the people who harm us and letting them get away with all the shit that they do. The world will be ready when we stop glorifying a boy who stabbed a girl because she rejected his invitation to prom. The world will be ready when we don't talk about a group of boys wasted future after they raped a girl and video taped it. The world will be ready when girls don't get acid thrown in their faces for anything that they did or rather didn't do.

But we haven't. And so the world is not ready.


So... down with the patriarchy?
 
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