Topfreedom!

[Lady Sabine]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom

Here's an interesting topic that I think could be a fun way to start the weekend. ^^ Topfreedom, simply put, is the movement seeking freedom of women to go topless in the same situations that men can (such as swimming, going to the beach, sunbathing, mowing the lawn...) and breastfeed their babies in public.

What do you think of topfreedom, Iwaku? Inalienable right? Definitely obscene?​

Please keep this respectful. Do not post if you have nothing to add to the conversation, are only looking for a fight, or are about to spew sexist or any other -ist garbage.

 

[captchakiller]

Eh, one part of me says "its your body do what you want", but the other part of me says "they may be nice, but please keep them inside".
Heres why

It is in fact, believe it or not, your body (gasp!). So you should be able to do what you want to/with it. EG: get tatoos, piercings, whatever, it doesnt affect me so I dont care. If you are confident about you body and want to show it off, good for you, positive attitudes reflect on others.

HOWEVER, some things people dont really want to see. For instance, some lady breasfeeding her child on a crowded subway in New York.(who knows why but it works for now) How many people do you really think want to see this? Be honest.

Also, while im still walking in the proverbial minefield, im not sure people would be too pleased if a... erm... larger(?) woman went about with everything out everywhere at a swimming pool. I mean, not to single anyone out, but its the truth. call me pigheaded for stating something that obviously exists, some things people really dont want to see. like babies being fed on crowded subways. seriously. why would you do that.

 

[Minibit]

Breasts have been erotic since breasts were a thing. Maybe it's the carnal evolutionary side that says 'this woman is mature enough to raise offspring, you should go mate with her', maybe it's just that they're so darn bouncy and soft and nice! Either way I don't see the relation of sex/seduction to exposed breasts going away this century.

I'm a feminist (in that I want people not to be judged based on their gender), but I think all this movement is going to get is catcalls.

 

[Seiji]

Women should absolutely have the same right as men do in this regard. While I do draw the line to some decency with full nudity (c'mon, not everyone wants to see your junk), breasts are not sexual organs! Women should not receive any kind of citation or any kind of flack for going topless, or even just breastfeeding, and yes, women receive shit just for breast feeding!

It's very frustrating.

Unfortunately, our society is descended from puritans. To those assholes, kissing was a damn sin! Considering our religious/cultural foundation, I'm actually surprised at the advancement we've made. It's still pretty behind the rest of the world though, and something to think on.

When people around you think graphic violence is acceptable to a 10 year old, but boobies will corrupt them, you have a serious, serious problem on your hands.

 

[Lady Sabine]

HOWEVER, some things people dont really want to see. For instance, some lady breasfeeding her child on a crowded subway in New York.(who knows why but it works for now) How many people do you really think want to see this? Be honest.

Also, while im still walking in the proverbial minefield, im not sure people would be too pleased if a... erm... larger(?) woman went about with everything out everywhere at a swimming pool. I mean, not to single anyone out, but its the truth. call me pigheaded for stating something that obviously exists, some things people really dont want to see. like babies being fed on crowded subways. seriously. why would you do that.

Some don't want to see black people walking around in public. I don't think what people want to see ought to be legal basis. Definitely a rat's nest there.

Breasts have been erotic since breasts were a thing.

Sorry if this comes off as rude, but you are wrong about this. Breasts are NOT universally erotic. In fact, a majority of non-Western cultures had no sexual aspect attached to breasts. Indigenous tribes all over the tropical world go topless without any sort of sexual connotation. In most Southeast Asian cultures, small breasts spaced far apart are the ideal of traditional beauty. Venus Figurines, some of the oldest forms of art, portray breasts as signs of nurturing and motherly symbols, NOT objects of desire or eroticism.

 

[Seiji]

HOWEVER, some things people dont really want to see. For instance, some lady breasfeeding her child on a crowded subway in New York.(who knows why but it works for now) How many people do you really think want to see this?

... like babies being fed on crowded subways. seriously. why would you do that.

They do that because their child, whom they love and wish to nurture and dote upon, need to fucking eat.

Breast feeding is not a sexual act, it's a natural function of the human race. We feed our children like any other mammal, particularly to nourish them, to offer them antibodies within the mother to help bolster the child's natural immune system, and to create a bond between mother and child.

Why the hell do we not let this happen because someone's offended at seeing a nipple?

Well guess what, I'm offended at the colour of your hair. I'm offended by the brand of shoe you wear. I'm offended that you consume that Nestle product. I'm offended you breathed too loudly. I'm offended by your skin tone. I'm offended by your accent. I'm offended by the way you wear your pants.

Everyone is offended or bothered by something, that doesn't mean we make that something illegal, for God's sake!

And what's particularly frustrating with your argument, is that you'd be okay with seeing a naked supermodel, but a naked fat chick? No way, she needs to stahp.

C'mon, man.

 

[captchakiller]

to each their own? and on the course of a legal basis, laws are put into place to protect people. here is why:

lets be logical and think about society is. its full of bad people. terrible people, people who dont care about anything. what do you think is going to happen to sexual assault? harassment? other crimes? its just making their job easier.

i dont see how this could possibly be a good idea if going without one article of clothing is worth risking personal safety.

Everyone's offended or bothered by something, that doesn't mean we make that something illegal, for God's sake!

perhaps you should re-read the topic, it says nothing about legality and neither did i.

 

[Seiji]

to each their own? and on the course of a legal basis, laws are put into place to protect people. here is why:

lets be logical and think about society is. its full of bad people. terrible people, people who dont care about anything. what do you think is going to happen to sexual assault? harassment? other crimes? its just making their job easier.

i dont see how this could possibly be a good idea if going without one article of clothing is worth risking personal safety.

So a person being sexually assaulted, it's their fault for whipping out a tit in public to feed their infant child? It's their fault for deciding they'd like a nice, even tan? It's their fault for wanting to take their top off after a long, hard day of physical labor?

So then all 'sexually charged' clothing should be illegal. No more skirts, leggings, tight jeans, tight tops, low-cut tops, tight shirts, pants in general. Only smocks, potato sacks even! Oh, and they should cover their faces! And to protect them even more, they shouldn't be allowed to speak either! Lord knows rapists can't resist a woman's voice!

Because that's how you prevent sexual assault. By removing women's sexuality. That's how you protect them!

 

[Lady Sabine]

to each their own? and on the course of a legal basis, laws are put into place to protect people. here is why:

lets be logical and think about society is. its full of bad people. terrible people, people who dont care about anything. what do you think is going to happen to sexual assault? harassment? other crimes? its just making their job easier.

i dont see how this could possibly be a good idea if going without one article of clothing is worth risking personal safety.

This is literally the argument that was used against abolition. "But if the black people are free, then all the bad people will take advantage of them! They need enslavement. It keeps them safe and protects them from the big bad world". It was true. Emancipation put many African-Americans in a position of vulnerability where unscrupulous people could take advantage of them and cause great harm. Might as well put 'em back in chains, huh?

Just because it is easier doesn't mean it's right. It's also pointless to say that clothing plays a big role in sexual harassment- the US military is TERRIBLE in terms of sexual abuse (and I say this as a military girlfriend + granddaughter) and the women abused are wearing some of the least sexual clothing in the world.

 

[Smo]

Yes.

Breastfeeding, believe it or not, is legal in almost all states save for like 3. It is illegal to arrest a woman for indecent exposure for feeding her baby and to even harass her in some states. I know this because I am a mother of two whom I breast fed, even in public. Did I throw it all out there? No, because I like to be modest for my sake. As to why women get shit over doing something that is natural and in no ways sexual is beyond me.

As to counter the statement over rising sexual assault -- how is that the woman's issue? A woman should have the right to bare all and not get a single finger on her in a perfect society but it doesn't happen because we shift the blame from the predators to the women. Because let's face it, its easier to blame the woman than pursue an overhaul of what has been set for how certain men react. Women are taught to be modest with their clothes because of men and their attentions when honestly, boys should be taught from an early age that it isn't okay to sexually assault women.

 

[captchakiller]

So a person being sexually assaulted, it's their fault for whipping out a tit in public to feed their infant child? It's their fault for deciding they'd like a nice, even tan? It's their fault for wanting to take their top off after a long, hard day of physical labor?

So then all 'sexually charged' clothing should be illegal. No more skirts, leggings, tight jeans, tight tops, low-cut tops, tight shirts, pants in general. Only smocks, potato sacks even! Oh, and they should cover their faces! And to protect them even more, they shouldn't be allowed to speak either! Lord knows rapists can't resist a woman's voice!

Because that's how you prevent sexual assault. By removing women's sexuality. That's how you protect them!

i used a simple cause and effect of what could (emphasis on could) happen. do i need to make my font bigger?

This is literally the argument that was used against abolition. "But if the black people are free, then all the bad people will take advantage of them! They need enslavement. It keeps them safe and protects them from the big bad world". It was true. Emancipation put many African-Americans in a position of vulnerability where unscrupulous people could take advantage of them and cause great harm. Might as well put 'em back in chains, huh?

im sorry im trying to protect you. really, its my fault for trying to prevent any possible future crimes that may be committed against an entire gender even more than they are right now. honestly, im sorry.


if ANY of you actually read my post, it wasnt saying ANYTHING about whether it should be legal or not, stripping people of their sexuality, etc etc etc. it was about protecting a population that was already being violated from being violated even more. but whatever right?

 

[Lady Sabine]

i used a simple cause and effect of what could (emphasis on could) happen. do i need to make my font bigger?

Be respectful and add to the conversation, please.

 

[captchakiller]

Be respectful and add to the conversation, please.

youre kidding, right. im being logical here. if you dont agree with my opinion or dont hear the answer you want to hear, dont ask it. dont call me out on not being respectful when i havent even done anything wrong in the first place

 

[Seiji]

i used a simple cause and effect of what could (emphasis on could) happen. do i need to make my font bigger?

The problem is, it's a terrible argument. Using that argument in the real world leads to the hyperbole that I carried on with. To bring that argument into a world that would personally impact you, let's say that I think violent video games cause actual violence, so let's ban them all! We get more hyperbole!!

In essence, it's bullshit.

It's fear mongering and ignorance behind the veil of reason. At first glance, it makes sense. At first glance, it looks like a tasty pie! Then you start to think about it, then you go in to cut the pie-- and find nothing but that stinky poo.

Women baring breasts in public do not lead to sexual assault. Uncouth, uneducated, beastly individuals lead to sexual assault.

 

[Peregrine]

Honestly, I could easily argue and believe both sides of this. On the one hand, I wish I could go around topless. I would adore it. On the other hand, there needs to be a balance. In America, breasts are sexually attractive. A woman who is wearing a shirt that shows off a large amount of cleavage is going to be noticed and thought of in a sexual manner. It is the same with really short shorts. That is giving tempting hints of the butt. If we are going to decide, as a society, that it is perfectly acceptable for women to not wear shirts, and that there is nothing sexual in the exposure of breasts in public, we are going to need to redefine our standards of sexuality. Something else will have to become sexually attractive, and then that will need to be covered.

I am not sure that it would be as easy as people think it would be to redefine generations of tradition in regards to the sexual appeal of breasts. Sure, in certain cultures in Africa breasts aren't sexual. But it isn't as though the sexuality is turned on and off as the situation changes. They simply remain plesant, but not necessarily arousing. I don't think there are many boys in America who could willingly stop being attracted to well shaped breasts. And until we are ready, as a culture, to make that decision, I don't think that women should go around topless. At this point in time it will send the wrong message.

Breast feeding. Again, there are two sides. Yes, it is natural. Yes, I don't think it would be a bad thing to have women publicly breast-feeding children. But, on the other hand, pissing is also very natural, and I don't think there are many of us who would want random strangers stopping and dropping their pants to go to the bathroom in the middle of a public space, just because no bathroom is easily accessible. Yes, our standards may be outdated, but they are still our standards. Redefining those standards would mean a redefinition of many things that don't seem to directly connect to the issue. At some point, we may very well be ready for these changes. But suddenly jumping from shirts to no shirts is a massive leap to do all at once.

Yup. Two cents.

 

[Lady Sabine]

youre kidding, right. im being logical here. if you dont agree with my opinion or dont hear the answer you want to hear, dont ask it. dont call me out on not being respectful when i havent even done anything wrong in the first place

Alright, second chance. Add to the conversation in a polite manner or leave. I only asked for three things in this debate, and so far you've broken two and are really borderline on three. Arguing, complaining, and being rude to other members is harmful to civilized debate and I don't want it on my thread.

In essence, it's bullshit.

You be respectful, too. This thread is for debate.

 

[Lady Sabine]

1. If we are going to decide, as a society, that it is perfectly acceptable for women to not wear shirts, and that there is nothing sexual in the exposure of breasts in public...

2. Something else will have to become sexually attractive, and then that will need to be covered.

3. pissing is also very natural, and I don't think there are many of us who would want random strangers stopping and dropping their pants to go to the bathroom in the middle of a public space, just because no bathroom is easily accessible.

I've gone ahead and broken this into three things I'd like to address. ^^

As for your first point, I think you're misunderstanding topfreedom a bit. From the way you phrased things (and I might be misunderstanding) you think that topfreedom is about women getting to walk around in every public place without tops on. That's not at all what this movement is. ^^ The mainstream movement supporters don't believe that women should go topless into malls or restaurants or their jobs- we believe that places that men go shirtless, women should as well. So if female lifeguards want to be topless, that's great. But I don't see a lot of topless male cops or bank tellers, so there wouldn't be female ones, either. In fact, most towns have ordinances against men going shirtless in many public areas, and most of us believe that these laws should apply to women as well. We believe in equality.

2. I would like to see a study supporting this claim. I've never heard of sexualized body parts being mandatory- I think expectations like this are harmful to the body image of people everywhere. Why does something always need to be sexually attractive?

3. Public urination is unsanitary. It causes a mess, a slipping hazard, and a strong, unpleasant odor. Breastfeeding does not cause any of these things. In addition, there are restrooms, but there are no breastrooms. Where are mothers supposed to feed their children if they aren't home? Public bathrooms are breeding grounds for microbes. I don't think you would volunteer to eat all of your public meals in bathrooms, why should babies have to?

 

[Kooriryu]

Seiji... ya jerk. You know I got finals. Can't front like I don't know I got a way with words and y'all mothefuckers like seeing me rail in on some motherfuckers but gawdamn... can I get some lube to ease me into this shit? Fuckin' hell.

Like... y'know, naw, this is gonna be a hit and run type of shit. I got things needs get doin' 'til they're done.

On some ol' bullshit about the sexualization of women's breasts, or case in this fuckin' point: women's breasts and the fixation on them bein' some kinda... natural bullshit. Nnnnnah. Miss me with that:

"I interviewed a young anthropologist working with women in Mali, a country in Africa where women go around with bare breasts. They're always feeding their babies. And when she told them that in our culture men are fascinated with breasts there was an instant of shock. The women burst out laughing. They laughed so hard, they fell on the floor. They said, "You mean, men act like babies?"" ~ Carolyn Latteier

http://www.amazon.com/Breasts-Perspective-American-Obsession-Innovations/dp/1560239271

The rest of this shit... I'mma just do as I usually do and link up a storm. Honestly tho, this is some basic-ass, simple fuckin' preschool 101, introductory safety scissors with kiddie gloves on level bullshit. Tsk y'all.

Level Difficulty: Easy
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-child-abuse/201203/the-sexualization-women-and-girls

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/social_issues-july-dec13-sexualization_12-21/

http://www.apa.org/education/ce/sexual-objectification.pdf

http://thesexualizationreport.wordp...nd-sexualization-in-representations-of-women/

And I caught that wannabe sneak-ass bullshit with makin' like being fat is bad, unattractive or whatever the Jenny Craig on a bed of french fries fuckin' mess. Like I wanna ask if motherfuckers know how women's bodies (and for the wankers, human bodies) work. TsssssSSSssSSSSssSSSsssssk. Fuckin' around like the natural state gotta look like "this" and to look like "this" is attractive or it's a naturally attractive bullshit idea of beauty when motherfuckers in the Renaissance were painting up some bulbous-assed Botticelli flibby flabby eatin' lambshanks and butter soup epitome of beauty-lookin' women.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...os-women-professional-athletes_n_4297902.html

http://www.brown.edu/Student_Servic...on/nutrition_&_eating_concerns/body_image.php

BMI is bullshit: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439

Fuck, to think I'm still linkin' shit on easy mode. Y'know, nah I'm out, gave myself three minutes to touch this shit and now my ass needs to go back to working on my bookbinding final.

Seiji, you know what my face looked like clickin' on this shit and since it ain't a Koori-post without a .gif then lemme not fulfill my expectations:

EDIT: Tangent for the little girls and grown-ass women: Don't ever in your life fuck with folk who think women ought notta do shit under the circumstances of this triflin' society we living in.

Summer Beauty Pro-tip, rock them daisy dukes 'cuz it's 'bout to get motherfuckin' hot as satan's taintsmack and if y'all get comfortable with your cottage cheeses then I'mma bring us some bagels and we'll have a lovely ol' brunch. Motherfuckers give you lip, do like Thunder Thigh Priestess on High Chun Li and give a spinning bird kick to the eye.

 

[captchakiller]

Alright, second chance. Add to the conversation in a polite manner or leave. I only asked for three things in this debate, and so far you've broken two and are really borderline on three. Arguing, complaining, and being rude to other members is harmful to civilized debate and I don't want it on my thread.

ive been trying but SOMEONE keeps throwing buckets of crap at me and completely derailing any other input i could have.


ANYWAYS.
i think that this COULD (can you see this seiji?) lead to some possibly negative outcomes. yeah, i get the movement, congrats, if youre comfortable with your body and want to show it off - great, good for you. but my point still stands. crime is a major part in cities, and quite frankly, i believe hat this MAY lead to an uprise in sexual assault rates. which nobody likes. even more so, think of how horrible kids are today.

FOR INSTANCE, again, not saying this would happen:

clarissa doesnt like marissa. clarissa decides to spread rumors about marissa calling her slut and whore and whatnot. all of the guys are making lewd comments and gestures to her in the halls and in classrooms. one day, marissa decides to go mow the lawn, and its quite a hot day, so she takes her top off. surpriiiiiise! everyone jumps out of storm drains and bushes and crap and starts taking pictures of her and posts them on the internet. life destroyed, luls were had.

the story may not make utmost sense, but you should see what im trying to get at, if you dont, get a magnifying glass. i really doesnt seem worth it to me. just for this specific reason. thats all.

and breastfeeding in public. i really DO NOT care about this unless its in some relatively crowded place, like a restaurant or something. or an airplane. if you are asked to put it away or whatever, the least you could do is go into the bathroom. you dont have to make a huge deal about it. if you do do that, and you are calling the people who asked you to stop disrespectful, but youre the one feeding your child in front of other families with children or couples, whom for the most part are complete strangers, who im also pretty sure dont want to have to see that in an environment like that, and are asked to stop, then makes a huge fuss instead of saying:
"oh im sorry, he/she was just fussy and i didnt want them to be loud. here ill go into the bathroom and finish up there."
who is more disrespectful?

 

[Lady Sabine]

Seiji... ya jerk. You know I got finals. Can't front like I don't know I got a way with words and y'all mothefuckers like seeing me rail in on some motherfuckers but gawdamn... can I get some lube to ease me into this shit? Fuckin' hell.

Like... y'know, naw, this is gonna be a hit and run type of shit. I got things needs get doin' 'til they're done.

On some ol' bullshit about the sexualization of women's breasts, or case in this fuckin' point: women's breasts and the fixation on them bein' some kinda... natural bullshit. Nnnnnah. Miss me with that:

"I interviewed a young anthropologist working with women in Mali, a country in Africa where women go around with bare breasts. They're always feeding their babies. And when she told them that in our culture men are fascinated with breasts there was an instant of shock. The women burst out laughing. They laughed so hard, they fell on the floor. They said, "You mean, men act like babies?"" ~ Carolyn Latteier

http://www.amazon.com/Breasts-Perspective-American-Obsession-Innovations/dp/1560239271

The rest of this shit... I'mma just do as I usually do and link up a storm. Honestly tho, this is some basic-ass, simple fuckin' preschool 101, introductory safety scissors with kiddie gloves on level bullshit. Tsk y'all.

Level Difficulty: Easy
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-child-abuse/201203/the-sexualization-women-and-girls

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/social_issues-july-dec13-sexualization_12-21/

http://www.apa.org/education/ce/sexual-objectification.pdf

http://thesexualizationreport.wordp...nd-sexualization-in-representations-of-women/

And I caught that wannabe sneak-ass bullshit with makin' like being fat is bad, unattractive or whatever the Jenny Craig on a bed of french fries fuckin' mess. Like I wanna ask if motherfuckers know how women's bodies (and for the wankers, human bodies) work. TsssssSSSssSSSSssSSSsssssk. Fuckin' around like the natural state gotta look like "this" and to look like "this" is attractive or it's a naturally attractive bullshit idea of beauty when motherfuckers in the Renaissance were painting up some bulbous-assed Botticelli flibby flabby eatin' lambshanks and butter soup epitome of beauty-lookin' women.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...os-women-professional-athletes_n_4297902.html

http://www.brown.edu/Student_Servic...on/nutrition_&_eating_concerns/body_image.php

BMI is bullshit: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439

Fuck, to think I'm still linkin' shit on easy mode. Y'know, nah I'm out, gave myself three minutes to touch this shit and now my ass needs to go back to working on my bookbinding final.

Seiji, you know what my face looked like clickin' on this shit and since it ain't a Koori-post without a .gif then lemme not fulfill my expectations: