The Good News

Discussion in 'THREAD ARCHIVES' started by Whispers_of_imagination, Jun 29, 2014.

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Do you believe Jesus Christ is the son of God?

  1. Yes! With all my heart.

    5 vote(s)
    31.3%
  2. No.

    8 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Heck no!

    2 vote(s)
    12.5%
  4. I don't know what I believe.

    1 vote(s)
    6.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. John 3:16 - 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    Right off the bat, I will make a statement regarding this thread.

    This is not a place for hate, obscenity or foul speaking of any nature. Your post will be deleted if it displays hostility or intolerance.

    ALSO

    This is not something I am trying to force down people's throats. I understand VERY WELL that this is a world filled with many religious views and practices. I will not fight with you, or persecute you in any way for your beliefs. In fact, I would simply have you know that I LOVE YOU NO MATTER WHAT YOU BELIEVE. God has entitled the people of this world to free will, and I have no right to infringe upon that. However, there is a reason that I did not label this as a debate. If you strongly disagree with anything listed/stated here, you are more than free to leave. I am not asking you to leave. I am only trying to prevent arguments of any sort from arising.

    FOR MY FELLOW BELIEVERS:
    This topic is highly controversial to societies all over the world, so treat this subject with gentleness and be respectful to all people. It is ok to be on fire for God, and to want to bring His offer of salvation to others. However, it is not okay to look down on others who choose not to follow Him. They are entitled to their choice. It is simply our job to inform them that the offer of salvation stands.


    SO! Now that everyone is on a level field: Let's delve into what God has done for YOU!


    The Beginning
    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was [a]formless and void, and darkness was over the [b]surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was [c]moving over the [d]surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
    6 Then God said, “Let there be [e]an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 God made the [f]expanse, and separated the waters which were below the [g]expanse from the waters which were above the [h]expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the [i]expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
    9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout [j]vegetation, [k]plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after [l]their kind [m]with seed in them”; and it was so. 12 The earth brought forth [n]vegetation, [o]plants yielding seed after [p]their kind, and trees bearing fruit [q]with seed in them, after [r]their kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.
    14 Then God said, “Let there be [s]lights in the [t]expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for [u]lights in the [v]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two [w]great lights, the greater [x]light [y]to govern the day, and the lesser [z]light [aa]to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the [ab]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and [ac]to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
    20 Then God said, “Let the waters [ad]teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth [ae]in the open [af]expanse of the heavens.” 21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
    24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after [ag]their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after [ah]their kind”; and it was so. 25 God made the beasts of the earth after [ai]their kind, and the cattle after [aj]their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
    26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [ak]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [al]sky and over every living thing that [am]moves on the earth.” 29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the [an]surface of all the earth, and every tree [ao]which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the [ap]sky and to every thing that [aq]moves on the earth [ar]which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

    To begin, I started with...the beginning!


    As you can see, the word of God tells the people of the world that He(God) created everything: including us! Not only did He create us, but He created us in His image!


    Pretty cool, huh?


    "But what does that even mean?" you might ask. Well, many Christians are even unsure as to what exactly is being stated. However, I believe I have discovered it, and will detail it into three points.


    We are created:


    1) Immortal - God created us to be beings that would never die, but would live forever. After all, God is immortal. See how that goes along with the whole "His image" thing?


    "But how is that possible? People die every day!"


    Well, check this out. Our bodies perish, it's true. However, our spirits don't die! God only created the body so that our spirit had a way of interacting with the physical world. So! Whether we go to heaven, or to hell, we will never die.


    2) Invisible - Sounds weird, eh? We can see ourselves: so how are we created invisible?


    Easy.


    Our spirits, not our bodies, are invisible. God is also invisible, because He is spirit as well.

    (Catching on?)

    3) Eternal - This one speaks for itself. We go on forever! Once our physical bodies die, we will face eternity. (I'm pretty sure you've figured out the "God's image thing by now.")


    Genesis 1:7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [f]being.

    Now you've got the basics! Let's move on.


    The Creation of Man and Woman

    2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created [a]and made.
    4 [b]This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. 5 Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to [c]cultivate the ground. 6 But a [d]mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole [e]surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [f]being. 8 The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
    10 Now a river [g]flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four [h]rivers. 11 The name of the first is Pishon; it [i]flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 The gold of that land is good; the bdellium and the onyx stone are there. 13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it [j]flows around the whole land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is [k]Tigris; it [l]flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the [m]Euphrates.
    15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not [n]eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
    18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper [o]suitable for him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the [p]sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the [q]sky, and to every beast of the field, but for [r]Adam there was not found a helper [s]suitable for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The Lord God [t]fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. 23 The man said,
    “This is now bone of my bones,
    And flesh of my flesh;
    [u]She shall be called [v]Woman,
    Because [w]she was taken out of [x]Man.”
    24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

    Without a doubt, this is my favorite time in human history. And for good reason!


    This was a time when man and woman walked freely with God Himself! And not only that, but God planted a garden for them to live in so they could all be together! Pretty amazing, if you ask me.


    Why all the boring detail? Well, the main reason I wanted this whole section of Genesis 2 to be detailed is simple: It describes the beautiful situation man and woman had before THE FALL OF MAN.


    The Fall of Man

    3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from [a]any tree of the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves [b]loin coverings.
    8 They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the [c]cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” 10 He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” 11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12 The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.” 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” And the woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” 14 The Lord God said to the serpent,
    “Because you have done this,
    Cursed are you more than all cattle,
    And more than every beast of the field;
    On your belly you will go,
    And dust you will eat
    All the days of your life;
    15 And I will put enmity
    Between you and the woman,
    And between your seed and her seed;
    He shall [d]bruise you on the head,
    And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
    16 To the woman He said,
    “I will greatly multiply
    Your pain [e]in childbirth,
    In pain you will bring forth children;
    Yet your desire will be for your husband,
    And he will rule over you.”
    17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
    Cursed is the ground because of you;
    In [f]toil you will eat of it
    All the days of your life.
    18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
    And you will eat the [g]plants of the field;
    19 By the sweat of your face
    You will eat bread,
    Till you return to the ground,
    Because from it you were taken;
    For you are dust,
    And to dust you shall return.”
    20 Now the man called his wife’s name [h]Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. 21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
    22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

    Sadness does not cover the feeling I get when I read this.


    Man and woman decided to disobey God! They were tempted by the serpent, and they fell for it.


    Because of this disobedience, God could no longer keep them in closeness with Him. How horrible! God loves His people so much, and never wanted to be separate from us. However, how could God be the source of perfect justice if He didn't judge His people for their sin? God is perfect, and cannot be in the presence of sin.


    So, as a result of this sin, Adam and Eve were banished from the presence of God. Not only that, but the world was cursed because of this separation. Sin entered the world, and immediately began corrupting everything in it.


    THIS IS WHERE I COME TO THE "GOOD NEWS"!


    God didn't just leave man to their fate. No way! He loves us far too much!


    He instead devised a plan to redeem us to Him! To save our souls from the consequences that our sin would hold. (Hell)


    This brings us back to the verse I posted at the top of the thread: John 3:16 - 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    In this verse, God acknowledges that our fate for our sin and separation from God will be to perish: for eternity. However, He also states that anyone who believes in His Son (Jesus Christ) will be saved and given eternal life! Wow!


    Here are a few verses to consider on these subjects:


    Sin -

    Romans 3:23: "for all [a]have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
    Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    God's love/plan -
    Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

    God's grace and the necessity of faith/belief in order to be saved -
    Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

    HOW TO BE SAVED! THE GOOD NEWS!!! -
    Romans 10:9-10: "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [b]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [c]resulting in salvation."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In summary,

    I love you all very much. I posted this for that exact reason. I cannot bear the thought of millions of people going to hell! No way!

    Especially when it is so simple to avoid that fate.

    God loves each and every one of us. He demonstrates this more often than we know. However, of all of the ways He demonstrated this, the death of Jesus was the biggest.

    Knowing that: what are you waiting for? God wants to bring you to heaven. To provide you eternal bliss! To dwell with you and love you forever. All that you have to do is call on Jesus!

    If you feel that you want to secure the salvation of your soul through a relationship with Jesus Christ, you may do so now. Simply bow your head, and give your heart to him. Admit to him you are a sinner. Ask Him to forgive you. And He will!!

    My friends, Jesus is calling all to repentance. To lead changed lives in is name. He promises us He will come for those who are His! Will you answer His call? Now is the time to decide.

    I LOVE YOU ALL VERY MUCH, AND ENCOURAGE YOU TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE GOOD NEWS!

    (If any of you desire for someone to pray for you or with you: I will! I would also LOVE to start a separate conversation with you, so that I can help you in your new, SAVED RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ!!)


     
  2. Well this is a minefield of a thread. I wish it the best of luck.

    Do you believe God let the serpent into the Garden of Eden? Was He testing us, and hoping that innocents, surrounded by God's animals, would somehow discern that the snake alone was a bad egg?


    I infer nothing. But you have strong faith, and I'm curious. Were we given the ability to judge between right and wrong, without any precedent?
     
  3. Question: Since serpents were formed in sin, do they have to do some sort of repentance like humans, who were merely formed with the possibility of sin? I've always been kind of confused on that point. All dogs might go to heaven, but do any snakes? O.O Do snakes have to accept Jesus in their hearts and apologize for the original serpent leading mankind astray? I've always thought that would be really interesting. One of my Christian friends kept a pet boa, but I didn't want to offend her by asking if she was trying to witness it- she didn't like discussing her faith. I hope you don't mind. ^^

    Ooh, and another question I've always wanted to have a serious discussion about. Many placental mammals, who are very similar to us in biological terms, have a baculum. Male humans aren't missing a rib (well, they have the same number as women and it's even on both sides, at least) but they are missing the baculum. I've heard one theory that "rib" was mistranslated, which makes a lot of sense to me from a scientific standpoint. Do you think the theory holds any merit?
     
  4. Please stay on topic, Sabine. We're talking about salvation, not snakes and biology.
     
  5. "I LOVE YOU ALL VERY MUCH, AND ENCOURAGE YOU TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE GOOD NEWS!"

    I'm here to learn. ^^
     
  6. That's a wonderful pair of questions!

    To the first: I'll be honest! I acknowledge that God created everything. And yes, that would include the snake.

    Did God create evil, though? Absolutely not. God simply created the force that is called "free will". (Yeah, that would acknowledge that the snake had a will, and intelligence. Many people refer to the snake as satan, indicating that it wasn't just a simple snake like we know them. However, seeing how the bible doesn't clearly state a name, I choose to allow the reader to come to their own conclusion.) People may choose to do what is right, or what is wrong.

    What is right, and what is wrong? Well, that is a very broad topic if we are discussing it in terms of human perspective. However, God states clearly in His Word what is right and what is wrong. If you want me to detail the verses for you, I will. However, I encourage you to investigate the matter for yourself.

    BUT WE AREN'T PERFECT! HOW CAN GOD EXPECT PEOPLE TO NEVER MAKE MISTAKES?!!

    Well, He didn't expect that. That was why he made man and woman ignorant to good and evil. That way, His will was law. And God's will is perfect. Through their ignorance, they were able to follow God implicitly. When they became aware of what was right and what was wrong, that posed a huge problem. They became aware of their ability to do wrong. Therefore, it made sin that much more likely.

    For instance -
    We have law in this country, right? Right. (assuming you live in America)

    That being said: What is the purpose of law?

    To state what is right, and what is wrong.

    Do people implicitly obey the law? Absolutely not. Crime is everywhere.

    Now. Imagine humanity all over again. Imagine human kind, only this time as a species with no idea of what right and wrong even ARE. Are they going to start killing? Or stealing? Most likely not. Is the possibility there? Yes. However, if the first experience they ever had was to walk and talk with God, it would be a different story.

    Let's get theoretical here. Envision a birth of a human child. Only, this child has only one parent. This parent is perfect, and knows exactly what the child needs. In fact, this parent has hand-tailored the situation to be ideal. So, the child enters the world, learning from this parent. They enter the world after this, brains fully equipped with their parents teaching. They find themselves hungry. Seeing a family having a picnic, this individual notices the food spread out in front of them. Will they steal it? Or will they ask if they might eat with the family? I would guess the latter.

    That's exactly what it was like for Adam and Eve. They had only ever been instructed in what was right. Yet, they didn't KNOW it was called right. They just saw that as how it was, you know?

    Therefore, they didn't see the snake as the bad egg. They viewed the world like small children. The snake chose to disobey God, and lie to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were naïve, ad fell for the trick.

    To the second:

    We were actually not given the right to choose between RIGHT and WRONG. We were simply given the ability to make choices for ourselves.

    When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, THAT was when it became the ability to choose between Right and Wrong.

    P.s.
    Thank you for engaging respectfully in conversation with me. :)
     
    • Thank Thank x 1
  7. In that scenario, the good parent's teaching would surely be binary. Do this, not this. Behave this way and not that way.

    That teaching would not always be moral. For instance - a child likes to run around and shout. This is not a sinful thing. However, the child must teach them not to do those things. They must teach them to be socialized. The only way to this, I believe, is to express an emotion: disapproval, annoyance, the withdrawal of privileges. From then on, the child associates misbehaviour with personal loss.

    In Eden, God had not punished Adam and Eve before, nor shown any negativity. Therefore, how was what Adam and Eve did any different to a child running around and shouting? They were completely unaware of the consequences, and it was not a moral choice for them.
     
  8. "In that scenario, the good parent's teaching would surely be binary. Do this, not this. Behave this way and not that way." - Asmodeus

    If the parent was aware of right and wrong and wished to impart it on their child, then yes! It would be a binary form of instruction. However, God did not indicate what was wrong or what was right. He simply commanded them, without indicating the existence of wrong behavior. See what I mean?

    "That teaching would not always be moral. For instance - a child likes to run around and shout. This is not a sinful thing. However, the child must teach them not to do those things. They must teach them to be socialized. The only way to this, I believe, is to express an emotion: disapproval, annoyance, the withdrawal of privileges. From then on, the child associates misbehaviour with personal loss.

    In Eden, God had not punished Adam and Eve before, nor shown any negativity. Therefore, how was what Adam and Eve did any different to a child running around and shouting? They were completely unaware of the consequences, and it was not a moral choice for them." - Asmodeus

    In the world today, this is true. However, using examples of children today is not quite the same as it was for Adam and Eve. The reason for this: Adam and Eve were born into a perfect world: they had everything they needed. God loved/loves them, and knew/provided everything they could ever want. So, they were perfectly content. Plus, the only thing they knew how to do was what God told them to do. They didn't even THINK about rebellion. God ensured that all they would want to do would be to walk in harmony with Him.

    And you're right about the shouting. It isn't a sin. I'm sure Adam and Eve shouted often. :)

    The first disobedience that arose came from something posed to them, not something originally known. And also, they were already instructed not to eat of the forbidden fruit. They had obeyed that without question. However, the snake TEMPTED the woman into eating and offering it to her husband.

    3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from [a]any tree of the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves [b]loin coverings.

    In this passage, we clearly see that Eve was simply aware of God's instruction. She didn't indicate anything as wrong/right/bad/good, but rather stated the command of God. The snake then proceeded to deceive the woman, introducing the concept of disobeying God. That was when the free will came into play. They had believed God when he told them that they would die if they ate of the fruit. God didn't tell them it was WRONG, but instead indicated the consequence. Neither Adam nor Eve wanted to die, so they avoided it like the plague, still unaware of RIGHT or WRONG. However, the snake told them: “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    Now, they did not know what lying was. They had only ever been exposed to the truth! So when Eve heard the lie, she took it as truth. She then, KNOWING THE CONSEQUENCE OF EATING THE FRUIT WAS DEATH, proceeded to eat it. Not only that, but she offered it to Adam as well. Although God had never punished them, they knew that eating of the fruit was not what God wanted them to do. They didn't know it was WRONG, only that God told them not to. So, that was when SIN came into existence. Sin is anything contrary to the will of God.
     
  9. We're not talking about snakes and bones, Sabine. Please stay on topic.


    So, Adam and Eve had no concept of morality, but were judged by moral standards - by a concept that only God was aware of at the time.

    If I were to introduce a new concept to you, and one day you defy that concept and I revoke all the luxuries that you have known, this would be just?
     
  10. Yes! Seeing as Asmodeus removed your post due to off topic discussion, I welcome you to start a conversation with me. I'll do my best to clarify your questions biblically. :)
     
  11. "So, Adam and Eve had no concept of morality, but were judged by moral standards - by a concept that only God was aware of at the time.
    If I were to introduce a new concept to you, and one day you defy that concept and I revoke all the luxuries that you have known, this would be just?"


    It's true: they didn't have any concept of right or wrong. However, they knew that they were instructed not to eat of it. Once they ate, they were MADE AWARE of right and wrong. Before eating the fruit, they had no concept of morality. Subsequently to the consumption, they did. Therefore, God couldn't say they were ignorant any longer. Yes, the concept was new. But nevertheless, they had to be judged, because they now were aware of their mistake, and the moral consequences.

    Yes, in my humble opinion, that is just. I would also say: if you choose to believe in Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness, perhaps you could ask God himself when you arrive in heaven. :)
     
    #12 Whispers_of_imagination, Jun 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
  12. So if you become aware of your moral mistake only after committing it, you must still be judged as if you were morally aware?

    Like a murderer who pleads insanity. He must be judged as a premeditated murderer, simply because he had retrospective regret.


    If morality did not previously exist, then it was simply submission. Adam and Eve were given an order, to which there was no moral attachment. So original sin is simply disobedience.

    How did Adam and Eve know that God was right, and that it was right to follow His commands? Why not follow the commands of the Snake, if there is no moral distinction between the word of God and the word of an animal?

    If they had disobeyed the snake, isn't this also a sin?


    (p.s. Please don't misread my tone. I am genuinely intrigued by this play-out of ideas). :)
     
  13. No misreading going on here. I'm simply happy to try to answer your questions as best as I can, and I pray that this might help lead you to God through Jesus. Although, as I stated in the beginning, I love you no matter what you believe.

    "So if you become aware of your moral mistake only after committing it, you must still be judged as if you were morally aware?

    Like a murderer who pleads insanity. He must be judged as a premeditated murderer, simply because he had retrospective regret.

    If morality did not previously exist, then it was simply submission. Adam and Eve were given an order, to which there was no moral attachment. So original sin is simply disobedience.

    How did Adam and Eve know that God was right, and that it was right to follow His commands? Why not follow the commands of the Snake, if there is no moral distinction between the word of God and the word of an animal?

    If they had disobeyed the snake, isn't this also a sin?" - Asmodeus


    As I mentioned earlier, sin is anything contrary to the will of God, not the will of the snake.

    As for the justice of the matter: God cannot deny His nature. He must punish those who sin, regardless of what causes it. If sin is done in ignorance, it is still sin.

    The snake was at fault for the cause of events. Adam and Eve were certainly mislead into making a decision they didn't entirely understand until they made it. God took no pleasure in sending them away. That is why he made his plan to save mankind from their sins. He loves us so much, he allowed his own Son to suffer for our wrongs.

    And as for the questioning of obedience to the snake or God: that is an excellent point. It is actually happening right now in our world today. Many people serve the snake and obey its voice. However, I am among those who believe the word of God is true. As for Adam and Eve themselves, they knew that God was the one to obey. They had witnessed His glory and creative ability. I can only speculate, but I would imagine the choice would be somewhat obvious. I wasn't there, so I'm answering out of my own opinion.

    I truly think the reasoning behind this whole matter is important, but I sense the ultimate outcome of this conversation will end up as most do. It will end with the request of physical proof or intensive logical reasoning behind God, in order to inspire belief in Him.

    People are so busy searching for cracks, they lose sight of the message.

    I am not trying to assume this will be your reaction, I only feel that we are headed in that direction.

    Here's my story:

    I found God in truth after I had a drug overdose and visited the hospital. Twice. It was there that my mortality really came to light. However, it wasn't the fear of death that brought me to the cross. It was something far deeper than that. Something occurred inside of me that I can't entirely explain.

    So there you have it. Many things I can only explain to the best of my human ability. However, I genuinely believe that all I have spoken to you is true. It is a matter of faith. I cannot impose faith on you. Even with the best reasoning. The reason behind this is: God made it to where salvation would require faith. If God won souls by reasoning, nearly everyone in the world would believe.

    I'm sorry I cannot label everything out in essay style facts. However, having previously been a non-believer, I can tell you God is very real. You simply need to seek him, through His Son Jesus. Then you will find Him.

    If you choose not to, then I must digress.

    I want you to know though. I want you to know how to be saved. That way, there may come a day when you will call on Jesus. And I sincerely hope that day comes quickly. :)

    P.s.
    If you ever come to Christ, you should use your gift of speaking in order to inform others. I think you could bring many people to the Lord! :D
     
  14. Completely agree. I hate it when arguments dead-end at "prove it or shut up". I tend to keep reasoning and faith separate, since reason can pick holes in anything if allowed to play by its own rules.

    Interesting that you make the point that Adam and Eve knew God was right (non-morally) because His glory and creativity were self-evident. In Paradise Lost (and possibly other sources), Eve is brought to awe by the snake's story of how it ate the Forbidden Fruit and gained knowledge. This is one of her main motivations. She marvels at the snake, just as she has marveled at God and the garden. Heeding the word of a creature who has transcended the pyramid of creation, from beast to intellect, is surely showing the same reverence to "glory". It would be no different than heeding the words of an angel, who descends before you on God's behalf.


    My personal belief is that God made a mistake, because He is not infallible. I know this is a controversial belief. But storytelling and psychotherapy all uphold the notion of broken things becoming fixed. Stories have their universal power because they are about healing, and I believe that God is no different. He is the wounded protagonist of His own story, and like us He is bound on a path towards resolution. He banished us from Paradise for imperfect reasons and now, like us, He has received His call to action and is seeking to heal Himself and become complete. And the universe is the setting for His quest.

    God is the ultimate protagonist in the ultimate narrative.
     
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  15. Amen, my favorite part of the bible is Jesus's teachings and the book of revelations.

    I can very much believe in Jesus and the way he loved his human brothers and sisters.

    My three favorite things that Jesus said:

    Matthew 5:44-45

    44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

    -------------------------------------

    John 8:7 “And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, ‘Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.’”

    -------------------------------------


    Matthew 6:34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.”


    While I am not Christian, I do have to say that I indeed love Jesus because he has always loved me. I certainly appreciate all the nature and trees and animals.
     
  16. Well. Time will tell won't it?

    *smiles*

    I certainly enjoyed the opportunity to bring the offer of salvation to you. Regardless of your belief system, I hope that you can at least walk away with the knowledge that all Christians are not aggressive and intolerant and that some actually hold true to the Word that they believe in.

    Love you my friend. Have a blessed day. :)
     
    #17 Whispers_of_imagination, Jun 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
  17. You too. It's been fun.
     
  18. Well, my Lord certainly had a way with words. :) More specifically, His Word.

    As for you not being Christian, I hold no judgment! I love you regardless, and am happy you have at least read God's Word and drawn something from it.

    I am called by God to speak His Word and to help others come to Jesus. However, I am also called to love others and to be at peace with all men. And I am!

    Romans 12:18: "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men."
    John 13:34-35: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

    I thank all of you for stepping into a threshold that many in the world despise. Although I would wish for you to come to Jesus, I know you have made your choice. I will still pray for you!

    I am so stubborn, aren't I?
     
    • Love Love x 2
  19. I love you back!!!! Thank you for sharing the Love!! :pray:
     
    • Love Love x 1
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