"Social Justice" vs "Social Justice Warrior"

Discussion in 'THREAD ARCHIVES' started by Kagayours, Mar 30, 2016.

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  1. I'm suddenly curious about this.

    How would you guys define "social justice"? And how would you define "social justice warrior"? Are the terms more-or-less interchangeable to you? Or is there a distinct difference? What are the upsides and downsides to social justice? What are the upsides and downsides to SJW's?

    Additionally, how would you define the term "social justice activist"? Is it possible to be a social justice activist without being a social justice warrior? If so, what is the difference? And where is the line between the two? At what point does a social justice activist become a social justice warrior?

    I'm not asking for dictionary definitions, here -- not unless it's relevant to how you would normally define the terms. In general, this isn't about semantics -- I just want to know what you all mean when you use these words, and where the lines stand between them (if any).

    I'm going to try to stay neutral in this, but feel free to discuss and debate (politely) amongst yourselves.
  2. "Social Justice" is is the fair and just relation between society and the individual.

    "Social Justice Warriors" are mostly a radical group that wish to make everything PC and soulless and will often attack Comedians(an example I'm using, I acknowledge others outside of comedy get the short end of the stick.) cus "WahwahMuh hurt feeelzinz D:Wahwah" They often go "Das offensive" as if it's some ultimate argument breaking holy grail of "I'm right and you're wrong" principle. the Term was coined negatively for a reason. Much like Chauvinists, Feminazis, etc.
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  3. Oh dear. This thread will go places. I can tell.
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  4. A safe space might be one of them.
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  5. And how would you define "social justice activist"? How does one stand up for what they believe to be the "fair and just relation between society and the individual" without becoming a social justice warrior? (Not trying to criticize your response -- I just want to hear what you think about this part.)

    :/ Sorry. I was just looking for other people's opinions. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to make sure it doesn't go downhill -- I know it's, uh... quite a topic, so I'm trying to handle it as carefully as I can.
  6. Though no doubt 'SJW' was coined for a reason, these days it's mostly a buzzword used to shut down conversations because someone has an opinion on something you don't like. 'SJW' has become synonymous with 'cares about something I don't care about' in a lot of circles (AKA most of Reddit. Oh my god, Reddit). My eyes glaze over when I read it.
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  7. When what they are standing up for isn't "This comedian said a joke I didn't like Boohoo, waaaahwaaaah muh hurtz feelinz!" Again, I'm using comedy as an example. More serious stuff like domestic abuse and racism? Sure, I won't have a problem obviously. It's the feel and need that "I want things I dun like changed D:" compared to "Stuff that's actually harmful not just for me" is what seperates "SJW" from "SJA" for me.

    I'm not saying I'm right, it's essentially what my idea is.
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  8. Social justice is in essence the idea that society should be changed so that the spread of rights, opportunities, and privileges is just and fair to all peoples of all demographic groups. Everything from feminism to LGBT+ rights groups to the Occupy movement are all social justice movements focusing on certain specific aspects of perceived inequality in society. The ultimate end goal of true social justice is utopian equality.

    "Social justice warrior" is a pejorative term for those who claim to be working toward the goals of social justice but do so in negative and/or hypocritical and/or harmful and/or nonsensical ways that tend to make real social justice look bad by association. A few of the key traits that differentiate a SJW from a reasonable social justice advocate are the attempts to enforce political correctness upon others, the horrid misuse of sociological terms and random redefining of words in order to support their argument of the moment, making efforts to establish themselves as a victim no matter the situation, and a rather ironic tendency to judge and value people based upon what demographic check boxes they could fill out. For example, Twitter mobs of people who harass the crap out of some guy and his family and his workplace because he said something racially insensitive can be described as social justice warriors. They seek to fight and eradicate racism, but they chose a very negative and harmful method of doing so, and they've given conservative and regressive types yet another example of how those damn crazy progressives are ruining everything. This of course has lead to some people calling anyone advocating social justice or political correctness a SJW, because most people lack the finesse to paint with anything other than a broad brush.

    A social justice activist or advocate is exactly what it says on the tin: someone who does activism for or advocates for actual social justice. A feminist whose main argument is that all men are evil rapists and should be culled to just 10% of the population to be used solely for breeding and physical labor is a social justice warrior; a feminist whose main argument is that women face certain forms of discrimination (paid less, pushed out of STEM fields, pushed out of politics, etc.) solely due to their gender and we need to work to fix that is a social justice advocate. The main difference is that a SJW is a menace to society using social justice as a banner to push their own hate and bigotry whereas the others are just people who are pushing for true equality. There's no clear line between the two, especially now that the pejorative term has been so watered down by overuse, but essentially it comes down to whether they're pushing for actual equality or some new form of unequal bullshit.
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  9. Social Justice Warriors: people who shut down arguments with insults and attack anyone who isn't them or doesn't agree with them. People who demand everyone adhere to their standards of political correctness, and demand that everyone fall in line with their definitions of words like "racism" and "sexism". People who can't comprehend the idea that "poc" is a stupid term and that "poc" are just as capable of committing crimes as white folks. People who shout "Privilege!", even though the odds of finding an establishment that will reject a minority are very low, and not socially acceptable.

    Let's see, what else... if you offend them, they'll tear into you before you have the chance to figure out what you did wrong. They demand safe spaces even though the world is not here to coddle them. They also probably have neon hair and give themselves a bunch of ridiculous labels that mean absolutely nothing from an outside perspective.

    Harassment, terrorizing, doxxing-- this is pretty common from these types of people. While I no doubt believe a lot of them started by genuinely caring for issues, they've become twisted and angry, and are no longer activists. Screaming at people and harassing them isn't going to get your point across. It just makes people hate you.

    Tumblr is a pretty awful cesspool because of these people. There are good, genuine activists on there, but they're few and far between, and a lot of them get caught up in the craze.

    Social Justice, without the "warrior", on the other hand, can mean good things. But it's been tainted and is hard to separate from the SJWs.

    I just wanted to say my piece, because I've met these people firsthand.
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  10. With Social Justice Warrior, I like to think of it as a kind of sarcastic term along the lines of "Moral Guardian". Essentially, an SJW is the PC equivalent of religious fundamentalists who see Satanism in everything. Using sufficiently distorted logic, an SJW can and will find bigotry in any aspect of life they want to. SJWs are obsessed, essentially, with being activists, dissenters, and protesters-which is why they go very far out of their way to find something to rail against.

    There are, of course, people who will use the term "SJW" to shut down people complaining about legitimate injustices, but in their case it's not that the term is flawed, merely that some jerk is abusing it.
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  11. Is this supposed to be a list of qualities that most SJW's have, by your definition? Or would a person only need a small handful of these qualities to count as an SJW?

    I only say this because your description seems to paint a picture of the absolute worst of the worst. Someone who fits everything you just listed would definitely count as an SJW to you, but what about someone who only matched a few of these things? At what point does someone cross over into SJW territory?
  12. Social Justice Warrior, while in itself being an extremely broad term, is now, usually (when used in the correct context that is), applied to those who, as others have said, while claiming to be fighting for Social Justice, the equal, and fair distribution of rights, privileges, and in general, moral value... They attempt to do so with the very qualities they are, ironically enough, claiming to be fighting against. One could say this tactic is known as "fighting fire with fire", except that fire isn't always on point either, so, in addition to making the small blaze in the house become a bigger inferno, the entire neighborhood is being torched. Though this isn't always such a large issue, depending on the way individuals go about pushing their agendas, it is still, in itself, a very prominent issue in the modern society, and one that will hopefully fade away with time. (I guess if I were to be less polite about it, I'd reckon that would be the day such people, when finding bigotry and the like in nearly anything, finally find those very same qualities, which have developed within themselves, that is, acknowledge, and make amends for them).

    Social Justice appears to be a self explanatory word describing those who think that everyone deserves equal value, whether in rank, economics, politics, etc. while the meanings behind this term is often tainted by Social Justice Warriors, it would appear that Social Justice in itself is, what the Social Justice Warriors claim to be in a sense. Though there are bad apples here and there, most people who are in relation to this group are percieved to be considerably more reasonable than their "Warrior" counterparts.

    >.< Just what I put together from what I've been picking up about these sortas things :S
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  13. I just wanted to point out the traits I view as sjw material. How aggressive they are about it all is the deciding factor. Shutting down conversations with insults, twisting definitions to fit a narrative, or attacking others because of some supposed bigotry/cultural appropriation or because they're "in a position of privilege" is a clear indicator. Playing victim seems common, too, if only to get others to do the attacking for them. Or for special treatment, I'm not sure. I'm no psychologist.

    You really have to determine this on a person-by-person basis, because a big part of it is just plain old aggressiveness, blindness, and ignorance. Not all of the people who share some of those traits are aggressive about it, and are open to rational discussion. I don't consider those types to be sjws, because they're at least open to change. Their aggressive cousins are sjws.

    Hypocrisy is also a pretty big thing among them, it seems. Fighting fire with an even hotter fire.
    #13 Dipper, Mar 30, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
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  14. Social Justice is the everlasting quest to make all persons equal. Whether that's equality of opportunity or equality of outcome differs on interpretation and issue.

    Social Justice Warriors are hatemongering buffoons who seek to destroy that which refuses to conform to their equality agenda.

    The modern Social Justice Warrior advocates for and participates in mob justice. The same kind of mob justice that resulted in the Salem Witch Trials. There's nothing new to their tactics (dehumanization, abusing the system to get their wants, using large numbers of people to swarm and drown out opposition, categorization of people based on physical qualities, et cetera), but they're just as damming and horrendous as they've ever been. They speak for people who never elected them to speak on their behalf. Worse still, if you're part of a demographic they claim to speak for, and you try to tell them that they don't have permission to speak for you? They'll claim that you're brainwashed, or that you don't know better, or that you just need to be "reeducated." They ironically take away power from those they claim to be trying to empower, if said people refuse their labels. They claim to promote qualities they will regularly violate in their quest to destroy that which is different. They turn individual issues into collectivist diatribes to make games of numbers out of what should be judicially regulated cases. They are the cancer loudly drowning real progress and real change, by being constantly divisive and never satisfied with any solution presented to them.

    SJW's are the kinds of people who look at a democratic process and come to one of two results.
    A. They won the process, but they must disempower everyone who voted against their agendas. After all, gotta combat anyone who might spread wrong think.
    B. They lost the process, therefore the system is broken, and they must disempower everyone who voted against their agendas. After all, this is a clear sign that [blank]-ism is alive and strong!

    Their reality is black and white. It's dangerously delusional and almost never reflects the actual facts of any situation. Gender Wage Gap? Completely ignores all other influences. Denial of biological facts about the human race, especially where it concerns gender. Expressing a desire to exterminate entire groups of people based on their race. (#Killallwhitemen.) Their every action goes against Freedom of Association and Freedom of Speech. They constantly call for censorship. They've called for people to be banned from entering countries because they express political or social views differing theirs. They vote for people based on the tone of their skin, or the gender they possess. They redefine terms in the dictionary to try and control the language under which discussions occur.

    Most groups of people I try to understand. I sincerely do try to understand. I've dated people whose religious views were opposite those of mine, or whose political views were opposite those of my own. I've no issue with seeing someone else's reasoning and treating them with civility.

    The issue is, the modern social justice warriors are some of the most racist, hypocritical, illogical, irrational, infuriated, vile, craven, sycophantic, treacherous, malicious, openly malevolent, mentally disturbed people I've ever had the misfortune of meeting. I literally cannot wrap my mind around how they think, because it's some of the most absurd and disgusting shit I have ever seen. Most of the villains I create in my stories are more prone to acts of compassion than Social Justice Warriors. Because at least my villains might pause to spare those who have served them well. Social Justice Warriors consume their own, and harass young artists into committing suicide if their drawings don't match what they find as "acceptable." If you wrote the typical social justice warrior into a story, they would inevitably and invariably turn into one of the sickest, most violent villains you could possibly create if you gave them any sort of power. Seriously, imagine what would happen if anyone went against their own personal agendas, and what they would do? Oh, I don't know. Ask them.

    Seriously there is no other group of people I can think of filled with more hatred than social justice warriors. SJW's who, time and again, have hijacked numerous, otherwise innocuous and positive labels, to spread their hate and intolerance. I've met decent feminists, who just want to make the world a better place, with more equality. Yet, there are thousands of "feminists" who call for inequality, hatred, and discrimination. I've met people who advocate that there is a race problem in the United States, who are decent people. Hell, I am one of those people. I think the way Hollywood's hiring process works in terms of race is absurdly fucking backward. I think the ghettos are doing more corrupting damage than ever, and more needs to be done to aid those ailing neighbourhoods--most of which are predominately black.

    Yet, for every rational person that wants to improve the livelihoods of others without resorting to hatred and discrimination, you have loud shouty mad fuckers in the social justice warrior community who would love for nothing more than to see the world they live in burn to ashes in order to pave the way for their Utopian society.

    The only saving grace we really have is that these people are also among some of the most cowardly and incredibly pathetic human beings you will ever meet, so the likelihood of they actually doing anything is pretty slim. It would require them to have a spine first.
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  15. @Brovo pretty much explained my thoughts on this. Social Justice can be a good thing if done correctly. Coming from someone who identifies as an egalitarian, I absolutely despise SJWs and it's because of them that things that might actually be wrong are usually dismissed and why words like racism and sexism have little to no meaning anymore. Basically a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation. SJWs are also another reason why Trump has so many supporters.

    TL;DR They're basically ruining everything and if Martin Luther King Jr were alive to see them, he'd be shaking his head in dismay.
  16. Foreword; I hate this topic already. If you want my honest opinion, I cannot stay neutral.

    Striving for equal opportunity treatment within society.

    An unfortunately very ironic association. People commonly described as social justice warriors tend to be under the delusion they are fighting for social justice, whereas in fact they are fighting against it. Either by method or sub-goals. ie; bringing group X down a peg to elevate group Y. I'm going to continue using this association as a definition for the remainder of this post, because I'm too fucking tired to be more considerate today. If anyone reading this disagrees with this definition or identifies as an SJW; you've been warned.

    Social justice is a noble ideology. Social Justice Warrior is a label associated with some rather extreme negatives.

    Social justice should strive for equal opportunity in society, which is a noble goal. The downside tends to be the... Interpretation. And many of the methods used. Which brings us to Social Justice Warriors, who are associated with methods that include demonising, doxing, discrimination, mob justice, etcetera.

    The upside to SJW's is that, many people amongst them, genuinely do care about the concept of social justice. Their perception of it's state and definition, however, is often disgustingly warped. Many SJW's tend to operate on the basis of wanting to be good people, by elevating the status of the less fortunate within our society. Or at the very least, they want to be seen as good people. Were they freed from what I view as their delusions as well as the stigma of their social circle that binds them emotionally (peer pressure is a very big thing in these circles,) I think this intent itself could be put to good use.

    I want to mention, that as with many a group, it's compromised of leaders and followers. Social justice warrior circles operate like kind of a cult. It advertises lofty ideals, like acceptance and equality. If you feel a little left out for being different, as an astonishing amount of people in society today does, the initial impression these circles give you is that they love you for who you are. Peel off a few layers, however, and you will find strict guidelines to follow in order for others not to jump on you. People who are afraid of being alone or judged, will adapt to these in order not to lose this new form of acceptance. This is where the danger comes in, because this stops people from thinking for their selves. This is why people still use the wage gap as an argument, for example. Accepting evidence to the contrary, would alienate them from their social circle.

    A cannibalistic cult, too. There is a race for purity, for being the most equalist motherfucker of all. While the abstract goal remains equality, there will be no concrete goal posts as to measure them by. If one perceived goal is reached, it is often minimalised or forgotten, as that would trivialise their reason for further existence. If one perceived problem is solved, a second is jumped upon. Those who fought beside them for the first goal, can just as well become the target for the second goal. For example, if you are a straight black man fighting against racism, phase one celebrates you. When phase two, discrimination based on sexuality, hits the fan, you will be demonised for being a straight man by the same people who fought against discrimination against your race.

    Perception of social justice and methodology to reach it.

    For example, the immigration topic. With the latest of Brussel, immigration is a very sensitive topic. Many people will feel that their own safety is more important than offering refuge to those who flee from war. This comes with a nasty bunch of associations and behaviours, because well... Human nature and it's lack of self-understanding and acceptance. Still, if you volunteer for soup duty, pass out blankets, offer first aid and possibly try to whatever little ability you have to accommodate these refugees, nobody in their right mind would think of you as a bad person. If on the other hand, you think portrayal of women in media is just as serious of an issue... Well, you lost grip on reality. I'm sorry.

    Or even on the same topic. If you volunteer to teach self defence on campuses, so that women can learn to defend their selves in case of sexual assault, you are giving them the tools to address a potential threat, which is empowering and positive. If you instead advocate for mandatory lectures for young men on how not to be rapists, you are assuming them to be sexual predators by default, which is wrong for reasons I hope not need be explained. AKA, you are disempowering them. Basically. The way you address a perceived problem is also a big part of this. Also inB4 1 in 5 and victim-blaming. If I get an alert with that, I will verbally powerbomb the everliving shit out of you.

    There's this thing about perceived problem as well. I often brush it aside as "Well, I'm not American and I've never been to the US of the A." However, I struggle to name a single person in my social circle who is genuinely sexist in any way, shape or form. And I'm well-travelled. Really fucking cross-continental well-travelled. However, when I read the 'ideal partner' thread, I counted a lot of people requiring a partner to be in favour of equality. To me, not being sexist is the default state of a person. Putting 'sexist' on your turn-off list is kind of like putting murderer or rapist on it. Are the states genuinely such a shitty place to live, or is it blown out of proportion?

    I don't know. I'm not American and I've never been to the US of the A.
    #16 Kestrel, Mar 31, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2016
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  17. Well, I never said you needed to be neutral. ^^" I said I would try to stay neutral -- because I made this thread to hear what other people think. My personal opinion shouldn't be important here.

    The rest of you are of course welcome to have an opinion, though. o.o
  18. It's more that I try not to engage in the whole us versus them mentality, which you're quickly shoed into when you express leaning towards a certain side on this topic.
  19. Social Justice is the root cause/movement. It's relation to SJW or SJA is the same as Canada to Canadian, Feminism and Feminist, Atheism and Atheist etc.
    However, SJW's and SJA's are two very different things, so as a result Social Justice has two different meanings depending on the context involved.

    The original meaning was to fight for equal rights for everyone, no one to be discriminated again, we have an equal, fair and just society for all. This was the belief for people to be picking up and fighting for.
    Which by comparison makes a Social Justice Activist someone who pursuits to create equality through logical, insightful and effective means.

    However, when I use "Social Justice" or "SJA" in this tense I prefer to say "Gender Egalitarianism" (or quite simply, "Equality") and "Gender Egalitarian" because the latter definition has poisoned the former.

    Social Justice as what it's been warped into is... Well, a giant incoherent mess of hate speech, cult mentalities, racism, sexism, heterophobia, in some cases homophobia, and conspiracy theories. It has no real consistent basis for me to point to and critique, because like Donald Trump it just goes with whatever it thinks or feels at the time, it shows no logic, no rational thinking, no actual awareness or care about the issues being discussed. The closest you'll get is someone knowing how to pull at people's emotions in the right way to create the biggest cult they can.

    Which by comparison makes a Social Justice Warrior someone who carries out such hatred and lack of knowledge throughout society. They are the people telling others to check their privilege, they are the people yelling at people for using certain hair styles or drawing certain pictures, they are the ones getting stuff like Yoga banned from schools for being offensive, they are the ones whose rebuttal to other opinions is if to try to ban them from speaking, and if that fails pull fire alarms or protest loudly over the speaker. They are the people who protest at places like Ferguson who allow innocent store owners to be robbed in the name of countering racism.

    In more metaphorical terms.

    Social Justice is a well, we drink from it, it helps us thrive and we do well with it. Social Justice Activists maintain the well, and are well respected for it. But then Social Justice Warriors arrive, they poison the well so that now people get sick from it. Social Justice Activist are now forced to scramble, either switch to a new well or try to repair the old well while filtering out it's poison.
    #19 Gwazi Magnum, Apr 1, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2016
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