Seriously, this is getting out of hand!

[ᴛᴏᴄᴋᴀ]

Yesterday, my son came home and told me that two kids on his bus beat him up. One did the actual punching, while the other kept my son from trying to fight back. The first question out of my mouth after I asked if he was okay was 'Did you hit him back?'. I know that this goes against what most schools teach kids about bullying, but this is where I think the school systems are wrong. They tell kids to ignore the bullies, that if they don't pay them any mind, eventually they'll get tired and leave them alone. This line of thinking is complete and utter bullshit.

Ignoring insults does not work. The more a bully is ignored, the more their behavior escalates until they can't be ignored. Insults and teasing leads to shoving and pushing, which quickly turns into fists being thrown. No one can ignore a fist to the face, and that is what ends up happening. I do tell my kids to ignore people if they run their mouth, but I also teach them that if it gets to be too much for them to handle, they need to speak to someone at the school about it. As a parent, my hands are tied unless my kids make a complaint to the school. I can call the school constantly, but if there is no complaint, they can simply tell me they'll look into it then sweep it under the rug. But, I also tell me kids to fight back. I don't give a flying fuck what the school tries to teach them, if someone, I don't care who it is, tries to put their hands on my kids, I told them to hit back until the person who hit them isn't fighting back. People can tell me that's the wrong thing to say all they want, but I honestly believe that is the only true way to get a bully to stop.

But, schools do not teach kids this. They teach kids to continue to be a victim. They tell kids to pretend it's not happening, and it will go away, and when it doesn't, they (the school) will step in to help. Yet, when it does reach that point, it's already too late. The schools do nothing, except continue to spew the same B.S line that ignoring it is the best option, that fighting back is only going to make things worse. And worst of all, when the kid being bullied finally does fight back, they are the ones who end up getting in trouble! Why do they get in trouble? Because they should let someone continue to pound on them. They should let the bully beat them senseless, and appear to not only the bully, but all the other kids as someone who won't fight back. That isn't solving the problem! That is making those being bullied even more of a victim!!! The kids see one person beat someone up without anything happening, and soon enough, everyone is ganging up on that kid because they know they're not going to fight back.


I honestly believe that bullying should no longer be a school handled issue, especially when it evolves into violence. I believe that not only should the student be held legally responsible, but the parents should as well. I know if one of my kids was going around bullying other kids and I found out that they were beating someone up, I'd be the first one to take them to the sheriff's office, at least to scare them into behaving. If that didn't work, than it would be time for them to face responsibility for their actions, whether its by going to juvie, or having to do community service, whatever the court decides. If I had to pay for medical bills, than so be it. My kids are my responsibility, and it's my job to cover their mistakes when they cannot. I wouldn't be happy about it of course, but that is what being a parent means.


I teach my kids that they should be respectful of differences, that a person's skin color, sexual preference, and identity is not something that they should be judged by. I have explained to them a million times that these things are not what make a person who they are, and they shouldn't rush to judgement simply because a person looks or acts a certain way that isn't considered 'normal'. Yet, every day when they go to school they see contradictions to the values that I try to teach them. They see kids being picked on because they're gay, because they're Muslim, or because they're poor. They see adults failing to help out, watching while these kids are bullied to the point where going to school is the most stressful thing in their lives. It's bad enough kids can't even go outside without worrying about pedophiles. They can't run around and play without worrying about some asshole in a car snatching them up off the street. School is supposed to be their safe haven, a place they can go where they know they're protected, but now those schools are becoming the most dangerous place of all.

I think all of us have had to deal with a bully at one point in time, some of us more than others. I know when I was growing up I was picked on constantly because I was not like everyone else. I dressed in thrift store clothing, even though my parents could afford better. I wore generic shoes, and was forced to have my hair cut in ways that were never stylish. My parents were strict, and it was because of that I became the target of everyone's teasing. I ignored it, but I cannot say that it didn't hurt. I was always self-conscious, and my self esteem was extremely low. Fortunately for me I had friends who understood what it was like, and we banded together to get each other through it. Some kids aren't that lucky, and today kids are absolutely heartless. I would have never thought of telling someone to kill themselves, or told someone the world would be better off without them. Who the hell thinks that's okay to say to someone?!?!


Anyway, I digress. What I'm curious about is, what do you guys think is the best way to deal with bullying? Should the police become involved? Should parents of bullied children be allowed to take legal action against the bully in hopes that by hitting the parents in the pocket they might put a stop to their kid's behavior? Truthfully, I believe that it should be a three strike rule. The first offense should result in suspension, the second expulsion, and the last strike should result in the child no longer being accepted in the public school system so that the parents need to either home school, enroll their kid in an online schooling program, or find a private school that does more about the situation that the public schools do. (They kind of have to considering they'll lose money if they don't correct the problem.)

 

[Dervish]

As my dad always told me, don't ever go starting fights, but you damn well finish them.

 

[LunaValentine]

You want my advice? Take pictures of the bruises, file a complaint with the police because guess what? That's motherfucking assault. Honestly I did the whole pushing and shoving and pulling of hair when it was done to me, Hell I took on three or four girls who were picking on me and THEY went to the supervisors. Guess what? I didn't get in trouble because they KNEW I was a good kid and that I was defending myself against girls who were for some reason throwing racial slurs at me (ironically one of the girls actually WAS white like me) and the bullies got in trouble back then. the problem is in the schools now-a-days there's no discipline and the kids aren't yelled at or get in trouble for big things......ever. Why? Because teachers are afraid of the parents of the little brats who are causing the problems. Okay, before I go into a rant I'll repeat, go to the police. It's escalated from Verbal to Physical assault. The little...... heathens... need to learn that there are real consequences to pulling that kinda shit.

 

[ElBell]

This is a huge chunk why I never went to school, thanks mommy and daddy <3

Seriously, I think schools need to teach kids to battle back once it becomes violence like that. As you've said and said well @Nydanna , schools teach far too much about just staying a damn victim instead of occasionally standing up for yourself when bullies take it too far. Yes, a few mean words here and there shouldn't provoke the one they're directed at to put the bully in a headlock, but once a hand goes on them in that sort of way? They need to understand that it's assault and that they have the right to defend themselves from that, be it a kick to the groin or beating them down to the floor until they're done and someone can get help before they scamper off to make up a sob story like they always seem to do.

I also agree police should be involved, and the adults who let their kids bully need some snapping out of it. Maybe a fine to the family for the damage and time in juvie if it's deemed enough? I dunno, but whatever the punishment is, I feel it should be so severe that kids never even want to bully. Mean as that may sound, obviously nothing else has worked to stop it!

 

[Diana]

Fight back and if you know you can't win, get in ONE really good hit and run the fuck away!


I have a weird history where I used to be the bus stop defender and defend all the little kids from bullies. I'd even carry around rocks in my purse in case I needed to hurt someone.

At some point between elementary school and middle school, all that bravado vanished. @__@ I don't really remember what happened, it might have been puberty, the home abuse, or all those "TURN THE OTHER CHEEK" lessons. >:[

When I got in to middle school and this one girl started bullying me, I ignored it and never said anything to her or anyone else. And it got worse to the point where she started jumping me at the bus stop and beating on me. I STILL picked myself up and just walked away. It got even WORSE to where she and her friends started jumping me around the neighborhood.

It didn't stop until my mom called the police on her and filed a report. After that it stopped, but the damages were done and I spent the rest of my middleschool years finding ways to skip school and miss the bus just so I could avoid all of those people. >>


That turn the other cheek stuff ONLY works about words and insult. Once someone lays a hand on you, you NEED to fight back. Even if you don't win. And you have to tell people. :( Otherwise the beatings just keep on coming.

I don't even want to get started on how shitty the school system is about this stuff. c_c It was shitty back when my brother and I were in school, and I know it's even worse now. This victim mentality the world is going through right now is fucking people up.

 

[Kestrel]

I learned to take bullies alone. To walk up to them and ask, why are you bullying me?

Most kids piss in their fucking pants. Some give you major creds. Some go in denial. Very few start fights with you, but spoiler alert: you know how to finish a fight. You know how to endure. They don't, and now it's one on one.

When I got to highschool, I had two upperclassmen who thought I was an easy target. I dedicated a lot of time to make their lives fucking hell, but this time without violence. I made friends with my friends' sisters and teenage girls are some of the most cruel beasts you can unleash. The gossip machine is a weapon without equal.

I've never been bullied since.

 

[Minerva]

I'm a Christian, so I agree with turn the other cheek. Most of the time.

I believe that everyone can be forgiven. If someone hurts you, yes, forgive them! But if they keep hurting you, make their life hell! I've been bullied everywhere I've gone. I have been beaten physically, emotionally, Hell, even spiritually! My grades had fallen, I had attempted suicide multiple times, until I decided that enough was enough. I quit the school, and went back to my old school. I met the bullies in Public where they continued making fun of me. One even punched me in the face so hard my nose bled. You know what I did? I called the cops. I had two witnesses who saw them punch me. They denied it like hell, but the witnesses helped me. I have been picked on due to my Christian religion. I forgive, until I snap. I have a hair trigger temper. Turn the other cheek, until you have no more cheeks. Then you unleash hell.

 

[ᴛᴏᴄᴋᴀ]

You want my advice? Take pictures of the bruises, file a complaint with the police because guess what?

I would, but the kid didn't hit hard enough to leave a bruise. -Coughs and withholds a comment about said kid not truly being tough enough to be a bully.- I've called the school, and the school system's transportation, and am still waiting to hear back from both. I kept my son home today, probably not the smartest choice to keep him from being bullied, but I didn't want to send him to school and have the school suspend him, and I'm not planning on sending him back until the issue is resolved. If I don't hear something back today (Which I damn well better or else I'm going to be driving up to the school tomorrow to explode on some people.) I'm going to call the deputy that works in the school and see if he can get something done. The problem is, my son doesn't know this kid's name other than his first name, and we don't know exactly where he lives. The kid does know where we live, and I'm hoping the little shit turns up so I can hold him in my drive way long enough to get the police here. @_@

 

[Hecatoncheires]

Go for the balls.

Nobody wants to come anywhere fucking near you if you're willing to punch below the belt.

 

[Laggy Lagiacrus]

Alternatively, go for the lower ribs - a good blow to the floating rib fucking kills.

 

[Halo]

I agree with like 96% of what you said. Schools are fucking terrible at dealing with this sort of issue. But I also think, being completely fair, that they're in a really difficult position.

If no faculty see the incident, they can't just believe one child over another. And in terms of the "just ignore bullies" attitude, well of course they have to teach that - can you even imagine the backlash if people found out a school was encouraging kids to commit violent acts? It wouldn't matter if they specified self-defense, people would lose their fricking minds, and as soon as some kid got punched either in self-defense or not the school would have the shit sued outta them.
The reason schools are often so ineffective at doing ANYTHING even slightly useful to help children in most situations is because we neuter them. They can only take the most ineffective, wet, pathetic, non-committal action possible because doing anything stronger leaves them exposed and vulnerable to having huge steaming mounds of shit dumped on them by anyone and everyone. Even the slightest accusation or criticism against a school is taken to ridiculous lengths, because they're an easy target. Just yesterday I saw an article about an American teacher who got fired for giving a crying, panicking 8-year-old autistic kid a hug when the kid asked for one, for fuck's sakes. When I was a kid, one of the girls in my class had a really bad 'accident' and couldn't clean it up herself. The teacher was so scared of being accused of something that she wouldn't go and help, and left the poor girl crying in the bathroom for over an hour before my mum (who was volunteering at the school) found out and went to help the lassie. And even your own post, Nydanna, shows this same fear - kids can't even go outside for fear of paedophiles? Schools are the most dangerous place of all? Seriously? We are all so stupidly paranoid and overprotective that we go into hysterics at the thought of anything even remotely negative occurring for our darling precious wee babes, and seriously, I've seen how rabid many parents get when they're dissatisfied with the school. Because the school can't fight back; they have to educate the kid of that parent, and they have to keep the parent satisfied because if they kick up a stink, nobody is gonna take the school's side.

Now I know the examples given above are paedophilia-related, but exactly the same problem is there when it comes to bullying. They can't take one child's side unless a faculty member saw the incident (hence repeating the same "just ignore them" BS) and certainly can't tell children to fight back, because if anything went wrong they'd be the ones who got into shit. Say they tell kids to fight back against bullies, and then the next day a fistfight breaks out and a kid's nose gets broken. Who do you think will get blamed? The school will, I guarantee it. The shitty parents of bullies will defend their kids no matter what, and have just as much sway with the school as you do, and are likely to cause more problems than you.

If we want schools to be able to effectively deal with this sort of thing, we have to stop demonising them and using them as a convenient scapegoat for everything that goes wrong in our children's lives. That's step one in dealing with this problem.

As for your three-strike system, I think it's way too open to abuse. I've never been accused of bullying, but funnily enough one of my teachers accused two of my best friends of bullying me. They were stereotypically popular kids and I was a geek, and we had a lot of banter in our conversation. Also, we all had ridiculously short tempers. The teacher couldn't really believe such an unlikely group would all be friends, and assumed they were bullying me. It took quite a lot of convincing on my part to get him to not report my friends. I wouldn't want to see my friends getting suspended because of that, even if the teacher had good intentions.

Anyone can accuse anyone of bullying. Unless faculty see and correctly interpret the act as it occurs, they could never give one of these infraction points. The financial focus you have on the punishment would just mean that rich kids feel even more entitled to be dicks to other kids than they already sometimes do. I also think it doesn't exactly give much chance for a bully to turn their life around before you fuck them over forever. Not that I'm a bully-sympathiser, but I won't pretend I haven't seen horrific bullies apologise for their actions years later, having completely turned their life around. I don't think it's reasonable to kick a seven year old out of school because they pissed off or upset some spoilt delicate flower of a child in their class and got accused of bullying. Again, we come back to the "teachers would have to see it happening" issue, which is still the problem right now.

 

[Jorick]

A lot of what I was gonna say has already been said, but what the hell, I'll say it anyway. Zero tolerance policies are bullshit. Teaching kids to let themselves be victims is atrociously stupid and just perpetuates bullying. If some little shit thinks it's totally fine to harass and assault someone else, giving them a stern talking to won't solve anything and punishments like suspension are just mini vacations from school. The best solution for a bully is an object lesson in why hurting other people isn't nice, specifically by way of them getting some first hand experience.

Kids should be taught to not start fights, but if someone else decides to have a go then they should make damn sure they come out on top. Fighting "fair" is for professional athletes. You want someone to stop trying to mess with you? Fuck 'em up. Go for the groin shot. Pull hair. Scratch them. Bite the fucker if it becomes a reasonable option. Knee them in the face. Throw elbows in there. Kick 'em while they're down if they're trying to get up to continue the fight. Whatever it takes to end the threat to your personal safety, so long as you're not using deadly or intentionally maiming force. It's not fair fighting, it's not nice fighting, it's fighting that's meant to shut your attacker down.

The rules for fighting off a bully should be thus: don't throw the first punch, don't use a weapon unless it's absolutely necessary to protect your well being, no throat shots, don't go for the eyes, don't smash their head into anything or kick them in the head/face when they're down, stop as soon as it becomes clear that they're no longer an immediate threat to you, and when it's over tell them to leave you the fuck alone or you'll give them the same thing again. Y'know what that set of rules is? A watered down version of self defense laws. You know, those laws that explain what you can do to fend off an attacker. My little set of rules is nicer to the attacker than the actual law of the land is (at least in the US), because that shit goes so far as saying that it's totally cool to kill someone to stop them if they're coming at you with what seems to be deadly intent. Stay within the bounds of self defense laws and you're good. It could very well lead to punishment up to and including expulsion from dumbass schools that run with zero tolerance policies, but that's the school being stupid, not the bullied kids doing something wrong by defending themselves.

 

[fatalrendezvous]

It's just as Dervish said.

Don't go looking for trouble. But if someone is going to actually put hands on you, give 'em hell.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

My suggestion of approach is honestly "Depends on the specifics of a situation".
Because any time that someone tries a One size fits all approach it falls apart cause it doesn't address the matters for the vast majority.

But with that being said, there are general guidelines I try to follow, and the guidelines differ depending on if the bullying is verbal or physical.

Verbal

Ignore it, get thicker skin.


The damage that is done with words is the damage you consciously choose to let affect you.
And honestly in the real world people will beat you up verbally all the time, so you need the tools to deal with it built when you're young.

Hell there are multiple people here on Iwaku in General Chat who have verbally bombarded me multiple times over the span of a few years.
People who will probably come here and say they hate bullying (you know who you are).

At the end of the day it's how you let it effect you that matters.
You can choose to let it effect you, be hurt and cause damage to yourself.
Or you can ignore it, be happy with who you are.

The act of the bullying itself isn't what's bad, it's the result bullying causes (pain and suffering).
If you learn to ignore the pain/words, the bullying becomes harmless and childish behaviour that you can laugh at to your hearts content.

If you have a mental condition like Depression?
Then this might be more difficult to pull off, but I would still suggest to get therapy/med's for whatever you have and works for you.
And then in whatever state you get to, work on ignoring the words.

Just whatever you do, don't fight fire with fire here.
Like say, sending the Internet to bully someone back.
It only makes the fire bigger.
I may sympathize with wanting the bullying to stop, but it just doesn't work.

That being said though, it should get reported to appropriate authority figures (Teachers, Parents of children involved).
It might be pointless, they might refuse to help. But there's the chance they might want to discipline the bullying from home.

Physical

This becomes more dangerous than Verbal bullying.
You don't control your nerves and body structure the same way you control your thoughts and feelings.

And unlike verbal bullying, physical bullying can have very immediate penalties.
Where something like contemplating suicide from verbal bullying takes time to grow and develop (and hence can be countered if caught in advance), death from bleeding out, inflamed breathing etc can be pretty instant.

This is something where no amount of self-discipline is going to stop the bullying or the effects.
The only way to stop physical pain, is to stop the source which is often done by showing you can fight back.
And this is something where not fighting back can lead to very severe and immediate health concerns.

As for how schools handle bullying? It's shit.

Schools I found want to ignore all bullying no matter what, refusing to discipline.
The only time they do something is when the victim fights back, in other words the schools effectively set up a bullies support group.
Where the bullies pick on people, and the school punishes those with a pair of balls.

But I wouldn't that means schools need to but out and make it a parent only issue.
It's happening under the schools roof, where the school is responsible for the children, it is their responsibility to try to make it a safe environment.
Though the system requires huge fixing/re-doing atm so it's actually helpful rather than harmful.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

*Catching up on Ninja'd posts*

@Halo and @Jorick also covered stuff I forgot to touch on completely.

The School is doing completely awful and handling these, but a lot of is honestly because of parents throwing wrenches in it.
Although being in Early Childhood Education at college atm I will say that's not 100% the cause, you do also get those people who sincerely think sitting down and talking solves everything. >.<

 

[The Ghost Note]

I haven't read what everyone else said, but I suffered a similar problem when I was in school. I went for help, talked to people... and nobody did anything. Until I stopped it by walking up to the biggest one and punching him square in the face. Not the passive solution, but, being passive won't get anything done.

 

[ᴛᴏᴄᴋᴀ]

If no faculty see the incident, they can't just believe one child over another.

See this is where the problem is in my son's situation. The bus driver saw nearly all the incidents. The first was an 'accident' where the kid stabbed my son in the hand with a pencil. It left a small mark, and there was nothing the doctor could do, but the bus driver watched it happen and did nothing. I found that out when I asked my son if he told the bus driver about it, and he said he didn't think he needed to because the bus driver was looking at him when it happened. Nothing was done, and since my son believed it was an accident I let it go, until the kid started taunting my son and telling him he was going to die from lead poisoning.

Yesterday, according to the woman I spoke with from transportation, the bus driver did not follow protocol. He knew that my son was getting hit, and saw my son punch back. Instead of turning the bus around and going back to the school like he was supposed to, he told my son to stop hitting the kid! This is two separate incidences that have been witnessed by someone with authority, and nothing was done. I'm not usually the type of person who wants someone to lose their job, but in this situation it's obvious that the bus driver is failing in his responsibilities. What would have happened if the kid had a weapon? If him being stabbed with a pencil and assaulted went ignored, than it's clearly not a safe environment.

But I agree with mostly everyone. I tell my kids to fight back, and I've told them repeatedly, as long as they're not the ones who threw the first punch I will raise hell with everyone and anyone who tries to punish them for defending themselves. My daughter does Tae Kwon Do in school, and I did tell her that she's not allowed to punch people in the throat (That was her advice to my son. lol) but I've told them all, I don't care if it's an adult, or a kid, if anyone puts their hands on them, to fight back until the person who started it runs away or can't fight back any more. I told the school the same thing when I finally talked to the assistant principal (Who was absolutely worthless.)

A part of me wants to go hunt this kid down, find where he lives and confront his parents, but I know if I do that I'll only make my son more of a target because he has to have mommy fight for him. I don't want my son to have to fight. I'm trying to teach him that fighting isn't the answer, but in this case, it is. I hate the fact that I have to go against everything that I teach my kids and say "Hit back!" because I don't like violence. The problem is, it's not going to get solved any other way. The other problem is, I'm not much of a fighter. I can tell my kids to hit back, but I can't show them how. I've never been in a fight in my whole entire life. I was jumped once while I was drunk, but that was four girls against me who was too intoxicated to even walk, let alone figure out how to ball my hand into a fist. It also didn't help that the main girl who jumped me was two hundred pounds heavier than I was. (Seriously, I was 125 at the time, and she had to have been pushing 200lbs. She jumped on my stomach and I'm surprised my intestines didn't come spewing out of my mouth like toothpaste from a tube....) I've been telling my husband to teach my son how to fight, but we both tried to put it off because we were afraid that he'd use it on his sisters. Now it looks like I'm going to have to find a guy around me that I can trust to teach him, or hope he simply snaps like he does with my daughters and starts pounding away until the kid runs off crying.

 

[Windsong]

Oh that's a long story. Spoiler if anyone wants to read.

Bullying was and still is a large problem. It sounds like your schools had the same idea mine used to. Now its a more active approach. Any bullying is met with quick action no matter where it happens. There are forms kids fill out for this stuff, witnesses and stuff too. Shit, there are staff members dedicated to handling bullying.

Spoiler

As a kid fresh from a private christian school thrown into a less than pleasant public middle school I can relate to this. Bullying was such a huge issue being an overweight white kid with glasses who liked video games and cards.

But then it hit a breaking point.

In my 2 years of middle school (ironically it's the one I work at now..) I was suspended nearly twenty times for fighting.

Good lords, how? You might want to know.

I quit being the victim. If someone started something I finished it, like @Dervish said. And it wasn't just 'oh I hit them back' finish, ooooh no. It was slam them into concrete and stomp on their groin, throw a chair at them when they turn away after I went quiet, bend a tennis racket on their head after they kept hitting me with a baseball, dunk their heads in a piss filled toilet after being kicked into it while filling it with said piss. Most of the staff considered me violent and racist (most of the bullying was done by black kids), but a few knew I wasn't reacting violently just to do it.

Shit, one day I came home from school covered in blood. A kid had punched me in the face about ten times because I was 'in his spot' for volleyball. Black eye, bleeding nose, busted lip, chipped tooth. I knocked him to the ground and took him to the coach who sent me to the clinic.

Across a courtyard filled with four hundred students while looking like Carrie.

High school? Not a single referral. Go figure.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

I think one event that really drives this issue home is something that happened in one of my classes a year ago.
Note: I'm in Early Childhood Education, so this was a class of people meant to be educating and looking after children.

My teacher had started a discussion with the class about cyber-bullying.
And it very quickly turned into a bunch of them getting teary eyed, saying that people today are so rude, and hating that such a thing exists.

But that's all they were doing, complaining about it.
The second I raised my hand and suggested tactics to address it the respond was quite literally "Well that's just tactics. We're not talking about that".

Really? Really!?

You people are meant to be trained on working with children, where bullying will become an issue!
But instead of addressing ways on how to stop it you'd rather just sit around and cry about it!?
Are you fucking kidding me!?

 

[Halo]

See this is where the problem is in my son's situation. The bus driver saw nearly all the incidents.
-snip-

Just be sure to mention that when the school gets back to you about it, and hopefully they'll yank him in to be a witness so they can do something about it.
I wouldn't be surprised, though, if either the bus driver is very vague and noncommittal in his admittance to seeing it, or if the school sort of brushes it under the rug and does something ineffectual. Mainly because of what I said above - nobody wants to stick their neck on the line, especially not for something relatively minor (and before you bite my head off, I mean that it's not like your son was badly injured.) It sucks, but it's understandable - shit, their job and livelihood basically go on the line every time some schoolkids have drama of some kind. :/ It's a shitty situation all around.