Revealing Gender Online

[Kylulu]

Know what the sad/ hilarious part is?

As soon as I read "Kylu" I IMMEDIATELY started thinking of that bald-headed bastard cartoon child, and sure enough you brought him up. XD

I don't think I've ever been confused for female, which is amusing because I play a lot of female characters.

SEE!? XD The teasing I'd have to endure with a name like that…!

Oddly, I am the opposite. Always assumed as female, despite exclusively playing male characters.

 

[Diana]

People will lie about their gender online yes.... but people also lie about things in real life. You'll get different kinds of lies, but either way, a predator (or an asshole, or a pathological liar) is going to stalk their prey, lie, be an asshole, etc.

The internet is not any more dangerous than interacting with strangers in person. You just have more opportunities to interact with people online because it's so easy to do.

For the gender question specifically, it absolutely does not matter what gender a person is unless you want to date them and/or discuss a very gender specific thing. So unless one of those things are involved, it's silly to make a big deal about it. (Aside from respectfully calling someone by the pronouns they prefer!)

As for Shenorai's comments about sexual conduct, reasoning and roleplay, I find them very judgmental, insulting, and lacking actual statistics or research to back it up. The amount of threads in there does not reflect how many actual people are doing libertine roleplay. We have LESS people doing libertine roleplay than nonsexual roleplay. There's just a strong group of people that do many many threads with multiple partners, thus boosting up the amount of threads and posts. And that's not even diving in to how many people are doing one liners that have no sexual content whatsoever for pages of posts, vs the people that write out pages and pages of character development and plot development before sex scenes come in to play.

You can't just write off an entire section of people as sex depraved deviants based on a simple post count, and then make it sound like they're all jerks for it on top of it. Sexual content should not be demonized just because there's a lot of assholes out there that don't know how to treat people with respect. That's not cool. >>

BUT THAT IS A DIFFERENT TOPIC ALL TOGETHER. .__.

 

[Astaroth]

Diana just said everything I wanted to say on this subject.

 

[Brovo]

Speaking purely rationally? It's not revealing your gender sex* that is dangerous, it's revealing any personal information about your life, ranging from sports teams or hobbies, to the school you attend or place/company you work, to the location you live, and so on. Basically, any information which can be traced back to you.

Still, the vast majority of people on the Internet are simply browsing to find Japanese pornography pertinent information relating to their interests. Avoid revealing anything about yourself or leaving any traces in areas of the web devoted to criminal activity and/or sexual content and you will probably be fine. Common sense I suppose is the rule: Don't tell anyone online what you wouldn't tell a stranger in real life.

That being said, yes, some sexual predator might come after you. Me and my best friend were stalked online for a while by a little obsessive closeted homophobic HyperChristian™, who just wanted to guide my lesbian best friend back to being straight and me into being gay. For him only, of course. However, sexual predators exist everywhere. To pretend that the Internet is the only place to be wary of strangers is so beyond naivé.

So basically: Be careful about your personal information, it's a wise thing to do if you're afraid of someone coming after you, but... Whether you have a pair of tits or a dick isn't anything you should worry about, really. I mean, unless you go to some place like 4Chan, but who in their right mind would do that?

*Dammit. If you're talking biological level, it's sex, not gender! Grr!

 

[Krnon]

Sadly, I assume you all are neither male nor female unless I'm one hundred percent certain of one gender or other. Until then, in my opinion, you are a blank, a nothing if you will. No physical features or individual appearance visible and it should stay that way for both my safety and yours. I agree that posting personal information online is very risky.

 

[Brovo]

Sadly, I assume you all are neither male nor female unless I'm one hundred percent certain of one gender or other. Until then, in my opinion, you are a blank, a nothing if you will. No physical features or individual appearance visible and it should stay that way for both my safety and yours. I agree that posting personal information online is very risky.

I usually just go with "you are a person" because my general belief system has me view human beings as people first anyway.

 

[Azarthes]

That's actually quite weird, I find it hard to interact with anyone online with out first making a small image of them in my mind. I usually always have the gender of a person pinned down in my mind (even if it isn't right) in the first couple minutes of interacting with someone. I wonder why that is.

 

[Krnon]

Interesting, What do you use to come up with such imagery? Is it how they type their words or is it how they string their letters along the paragraphs? This I am Genuinely curious about.

 

[Azarthes]

Interesting, What do you use to propagate such imagery? Is it how they type their words or is it how they string their letters along the paragraphs? This I am Genuinely curious about.

Most of it probably comes from my mood at that specific time, but over time, I don't know. I've found that I always get this... sixth sense for the way people will act in real life when they put their words down into a text format. A lot of it comes from the obvious keystrokes they make, and what exact words they use.
For gender specifically, I think I've nailed it down pretty well actually.

Whenever I see the words "let me explain why I think this" followed directly by a story or string of thought. I immediately assume that person is female. And it's because I've noticed that the women in my life will always put their thought down on the sideline to explain how the thought came to be, and then pick up their train of thought again. Where as the men in my life, almost without fail say their thought first, wait for the other person to reply with a question, and try to open a dialog on their point; when they are finally finished with that they come to explain how they got to that thought.

But those are stereotypes based on my life, so in most circumstances I'm probably wrong.

It's just I need that image to cling onto when interacting with someone over the internets.

 

[Brovo]

All I have to do is bring up two topics.

#1: Cute things. (ex: ferrets.)

#2: Cute chicks.

Blam. 95% of the time the person answering reveals their sex. Because societal programming is fun!

 

[Jorick]

I've seen this come across other social media, made online gender identity mistakes according to my roleplaying partners, and have even had discussions with my mom about whether or not telling your true gender online is safe or not. This subject might seem kind of pointless and corny, if you will, but at the same time, you don't know who another online person truly is unless you meet them directly, face to face. Generally speaking, you don't know if they're truly a female or male. Pictures on the internet don't even prove to you whether that person is truly who they say they are- a female or a male.

However, they may or may not continuously correct you on their gender identity, and even after one thousand times, would you still know for sure whether what they say is true or not? Does gender revealing online really make much of a difference? Is it that important to know a person's gender down to the point where they have to correct you every time you call them a he or she? You don't even know what their gender is truly, so why does it seemingly matter across online social media?

The thing is that whether or not what they say is true, it's all you have to go on. Some may have good reasons for lying about their sex or gender, which others have already listed. Others might just like lying and creating a false persona. Whatever the case may be, it's all you have to go on. The real question, in my opinion, is why in the hell would anyone need to be corrected a thousand times (or even like a dozen) about someone's gender? Seems like something that should only take a few times until you get it right. You can never know that the person saying they're a male actually has a penis, but so what, use the male pronouns anyway.

Revealing gender online can indeed make a difference. Whether they are consciously aware of it or not, people treat differing genders differently. Everyone has a whole slew of thoughts and opinions and biases that they've accumulated through their life, and some of them will be based on sex and gender, so they will treat males and females and the variety of non-binary gender identities differently. It could be very blatant and obvious, or it could be subtle, but the differences will exist in the behavior of the vast majority of people. It comes down to how our brains work on a basic level, can't really help it. Some people purposely avoid revealing their gender because of this (and because of safety reasons pertaining to internet predators), and that's a perfectly valid choice. Nobody ever has to reveal their gender or sex online, nor should they be pressured to if they don't feel like doing so.

The importance of gender identity differs from person to person. If they're getting upset and correcting you over and over, then it's important to them. Gender is a major part of identity, so plenty of people will take it as a sort of attack on their identity if you refer to them with the wrong gender terminology. Other people won't give a shit and will be fine with whatever pronouns you use for them. How much one cares about their own gender identity likely impacts how much they care about getting it right for other people, so it comes from the other direction as well.

It only matters because, related to above, some people really care about how they are perceived, which is all about their identity. Gender identity is part of that. Just because you can't know that someone is a certain gender doesn't mean you should automatically doubt them and use other pronouns. If you were gonna do that, you ought to only use non-gendered language when talking about everyone on the internet because you can never be sure about anyone. That's just silly. Seriously, it's a simple matter of calling people what they want to be called. Doesn't matter if you doubt it, doesn't matter if you don't think it's important, it's just easiest for everyone if you identify them as they identify themselves.

Oh, and as others have said, the main place where gender matters is if you decide to meet up with an internet friend in real life. Even then it really only ought to matter if you're looking to have a romantic relationship with and/or fuck them, because who cares if someone who's just a friend has a penis or a vagina really? But if you're gonna meet someone from the internet it should only be if you've known them for quite a long time and trust them, which means they will hopefully at that point already have come clean about any gender lies, and even then your first meeting should be in a very public place just in case. Safety first.

How the fuck does saying "I am a boy/girl" change anything about interacting online?

All it does it make people use a different pronoun

All this other shit is you complaining about nothing.

This isn't that big of a deal guys.

In a perfect and ideal world it'd make no difference at all.

In reality people do actually treat boys and girls differently. It's a fact of life.

It shouldn't be a big deal, but some people make it a big deal because they're turds. Turds (both metaphorical and literal) existing is also a fact of life, sadly.

People will lie about their gender online yes.... but people also lie about things in real life. You'll get different kinds of lies, but either way, a predator (or an asshole, or a pathological liar) is going to stalk their prey, lie, be an asshole, etc.

The internet is not any more dangerous than interacting with strangers in person. You just have more opportunities to interact with people online because it's so easy to do.

If anything it's probably safer than interacting with strangers in person. You've got extra layers of defense there in the way of distance, anonymity, and the option to cease all contact whenever you feel like it. It's a lot harder for some random jerkass from the internet to mug/rape/murder you than it is for a dude you meet in a dark alley at night, y'know?

 

[Hecatoncheires]

It's never really been an issue for me, but then I am the proud owner of a penis.

Yes, tumblr, I have checked my privilege today; being a straight white male is still awesome, thanks for asking.

 

[Blind Hemingway]

Until Diana allows me to put my gender as potato, I'll never be represented on the internet. ;w;

 

[Dioxyne]

People will lie about their gender online yes.... but people also lie about things in real life. You'll get different kinds of lies, but either way, a predator (or an asshole, or a pathological liar) is going to stalk their prey, lie, be an asshole, etc.

The internet is not any more dangerous than interacting with strangers in person. You just have more opportunities to interact with people online because it's so easy to do.

For the gender question specifically, it absolutely does not matter what gender a person is unless you want to date them and/or discuss a very gender specific thing. So unless one of those things are involved, it's silly to make a big deal about it. (Aside from respectfully calling someone by the pronouns they prefer!)

As for Shenorai's comments about sexual conduct, reasoning and roleplay, I find them very judgmental, insulting, and lacking actual statistics or research to back it up. The amount of threads in there does not reflect how many actual people are doing libertine roleplay. We have LESS people doing libertine roleplay than nonsexual roleplay. There's just a strong group of people that do many many threads with multiple partners, thus boosting up the amount of threads and posts. And that's not even diving in to how many people are doing one liners that have no sexual content whatsoever for pages of posts, vs the people that write out pages and pages of character development and plot development before sex scenes come in to play.

You can't just write off an entire section of people as sex depraved deviants based on a simple post count, and then make it sound like they're all jerks for it on top of it. Sexual content should not be demonized just because there's a lot of assholes out there that don't know how to treat people with respect. That's not cool. >>

BUT THAT IS A DIFFERENT TOPIC ALL TOGETHER. .__.

How the fuck does saying "I am a boy/girl" change anything about interacting online?

All it does it make people use a different pronoun

All this other shit is you complaining about nothing.

This isn't that big of a deal guys.

The internet is a place of equality, not of special treatment, and maintaining a policy of keeping your personal information to yourself is the best way to be treated and judged on your own merits, not your accomplishments or gender. This is why I stopped sharing my name, face, and a bunch of other information with people. No amount of social re-structuring, societal change, or community specific rules are going to change that people have opinions and predispositions. The best approach is to keep your personal information to yourself.
The reason she quoted the 'There are no girls on the internet' rule, is that it was first used for this very purpose. A lot of people in internet culture, significantly disproportionate to real life have been deceptive, and pretended to be the other gender for special attention, treatment, or free things.
For instance, I cut a few friends out of my circle because they were scamming people out of gear by pretending to be girls in MMORPGs such as Runescape, WoW, Maplestory, and League of Legends. A few female friends of mine can attest to the harassment on XBL, Ventrilo/Teamspeak, Curse Voice, and pretty much anywhere else where they use their voice, and they can tell you that they no longer use microphones or claim their gender because of all the attention that nugget of information garners. I have been personal witness to this sort of thing many of these occasions.
It is inarguable fact, even if you doubt it, that people have predispositions and opinions about the people around them, and will act differently towards them; you see it literally everywhere in society. You do not need a university-backed study to determine the existence of predisposition regarding gender.

Now, onto the less relevant points Diana has made:
The fact that one-liners exist in the Libertine section doesn't change the fact that it's the largest section, by a landslide. Whoever is responsible for the posts, no matter how many or how few is still responsible for the largest section in the community, and makes up the largest majority of the website's activity. You cannot write Libertiners off as being an insignificant part of the userbase. They still make up a core part of the community. (I still strongly dislike that the Libertine section is called what it is, but I made a blog about that.)
I don't see how the post counts of active and archived threads can be argued against, or why the fact that not every single post is pornography would change that. Why would those facts change anything, and does it even matter; how is any of this relevant to the point of the thread? Is there something to be ashamed of?



I fail to see where anyone was 'demonized' or called a 'sex craved deviant' for their tastes in writing, only that the people who make it gender a major issue are interested in it for purely sexual reasons. While that may not be 100% true, if it's a big enough deal to someone that they won't interact with you unless you share your gender then that person is definitely a disrespectful asshole and almost always has an ulterior motive for pressing the question. Almost all of you have already expressed a similar opinion, and I doubt the rest of you disagree with it. You're all worried more about the presentation of the opinion rather than what it is, and that's really just dumb.

 

[ElBell]

Honestly I agree these are separate issues, but I still was offended by the initial post of it. And truly there's some BS in there too, since honestly I couldn't care less what my partners are, Libertine or otherwise. It's the characters that matter, so who's behind the screen is irrelevant beyond the pronouns used, at least in my opinion.

 

[Dioxyne]

Pronouns are irrelevant, because you can simply address someone by their username, because your personal definition and your physical gender are in the same boat as far as these things go. You shouldn't need to know anything more than that talking to a person in a casual, forum environment unless they make it an issue.
A lot of people make pronouns, sexuality, and a load of other miniscule personal details a focal point of a conversation, pandering to inherent predispositions I've already discussed, to garner attention to themselves... for whatever reason it may be. Since the topic is gender, sexuality, and so on, it's usually sexual in nature and not entertaining, informative or thought provoking; it's annoying noise, and I agree with Shenorai on that.

Equally irrelevant, is whether or not someone is offended by the presentation of an opinion. Some people aren't able to elaborate their opinion as well as others and ostracizing them because of a first-glance interpretation of their words (without properly addressing them) isn't right.

 

[Razilin]

DUDE I AM

But i think this becomes evident in how i write anyways

Gender hiding is troublesome for me

So I guess I gender reveal by happenstance?

 

[Astaroth]

I have things I want to say about the argument concerning the Libertine section, but I'm going to stop myself and ask everyone else to do the same. It was off-topic when it was brought up, and the only reason the original comments were addressed by an Administrator was because they were inflammatory toward our member base. This thread is not about the Libertine section.


Now, @Dioxyne

There are scammers, con artists, and creeps in real life as well and always have been. I would not say without statistics to back it up that there are more on the internet. The difference with scammers and creeps on the internet is that they get away with some things that they would have more difficulty doing offline. Is this a problem online? Absolutely. Is it inextricably linked to gender? No. Would it happen even if everyone kept their gender to themselves? Yes. Would it happen offline regardless? Yes. I can't even tell you how many times I've had someone try to phone scam me or get me to give them money in person on false pretenses. That's not even counting the creeps and assholes I've run into, irrelevant to my gender. The way to address this online- as offline- is to be SMART and learn to identify these kinds of scams and pitfalls. One way is to hide your gender and personal information, yes, but those steps may not be necessary and it is a personal choice.

And that's what is getting me here about your argument. You seem to be advocating that everyone choose to do the same thing you do, with no regard for their personal feelings and beliefs. You are saying that eliminating gender online will keep people from being judgmental... while making sweeping generalizations yourself about people who do. You are saying that gender shouldn't be important, while simultaneously arguing that it IS important, and then telling everyone who finds it important that they can't talk about it or that their motives are purely sexual/greedy.

I openly admit to being a guy on Iwaku. I also openly share other personal info here. I don't do this because it gets me special treatment or as a lie to keep myself from being harassed. I definitely don't do it because I'm looking for booty. I do it because I'm comfortable here. I know from firsthand experience on Staff and as a member that we take care of people here. Anyone doing any of the things you've mentioned- scamming, harassing girls, being sexually inappropriate and creepy- gets banned. Usually quite promptly. I like it here, and I feel secure being myself rather than a persona. I know many other people feel the same way. We've had trans members- to whom gender and social perception thereof is an INCREDIBLY important part of their lives- come out to the community here before coming out to their family. And that's awesome.

It's also true that sexuality and sex is important to some people. And what exactly is wrong with that? No, it's not important to everyone, but this is why honest discourse of "I would like to talk about sex and sexuality" or "I don't want to talk about sex or sexuality" is a good thing. This is why having areas where that content is allowed is a good thing, because it gives clear lines for people to follow about what is and isn't appropriate elsewhere. You can always, always ask someone not to bring up a certain subject to you- and if they harass you about it, they're in the wrong. But you can't seek out and discuss it with them and then blame them for the subject without being in the wrong too.

I don't think anyone here will disagree that if someone stops talking to you on account of refusing to disclose your gender, they're being an asshole. Although to be fair, I know some people are worried that it means you have something to hide. Generally though, that's not cool and is absolutely shady behavior.

 

[Kestrel]

However, they may or may not continuously correct you on their gender identity, and even after one thousand times, would you still know for sure whether what they say is true or not?

Not really, but I see no point in contesting it because it won't earn you anything. If someone insists they're one gender, then we just go with that. Yelling "NO I THINK YOU'RE A GUY IN REAL LIFE!" is a waste of time.

Does gender revealing online really make much of a difference?

Sorta... People have an inherent tendency to treat different genders differently. People used to... And apparently kinda still often assume I'm my RP character's gender. Once or twice I had some boys hit on me over it. If you really, really mind that, it makes a difference. If you earned your big boy/big girl pants, on the other hand, it doesn't really.

Is it that important to know a person's gender down to the point where they have to correct you every time you call them a he or she?

I personally wouldn't care to correct a person constantly. Maybe once or twice, but I don't really care.

You don't even know what their gender is truly, so why does it seemingly matter across online social media?

If someone insists they're one gender, then we just go with that. I mean, what do I care? They might be flying tentacle monsters, but will that ever really be relevant in my online interaction with them?

 

[Melon]

I, personally, do not care about gender. What matters to me is how they act. If you are an absolute douchebag, that's when I don't want to be around you. Like Diana said, it's the internet, unless you want to date them it doesn't really matter if they keep their gender a secret. If you lie about your gender, it wouldn't bother me. To me, it doesn't matter what body parts you have, it's your personality that matters.