Pathos vs Logos

Which is more important?

  • Logic before emotion: Honesty and the truth matter the most.

  • Emotion before logic: Nobody will listen to you if you're hurting their feelings.


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Brovo

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Yet another topic I'm curious about Iwaku. Which is more important: Logic, or emotion? Is it better to tell the truth even if it's cold and it hurts? Or is it better to ensure you don't hurt people's feelings, so they will be more receptive to what you have to say?

There is no neutral option intentionally. Keep that in mind.
 
I hate this thread solely on the basis that we are ignoring and purposely leaving out ethos.


*Pets poor, sad, lonely ethos* There, there. Brovo didn't mean to forget about you. At least I care. V_V
 
I hate this thread solely on the basis that we are ignoring and purposely leaving out ethos.


*Pets poor, sad, lonely ethos* There, there. Brovo didn't mean to forget about you. At least I care. V_V
Alright Narcissus, go back to looking in the pond, would you? :ferret:
 
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Logic. I try to remove emotion whereever it isn't appropriate, as it can, as we all know, be a hinderance.
 
Often times when I run into this question people seem to see it as only two camps (even after the disclaimers of 'everyone's a mix, but for polls sake pick a side' has been made).
So I feel the need to expand the camps a bit just to get my own position across.

*Remember even these camps are still greatly generalized, and by nature extreme. And no one is simply going to be just one of these camps, but rather simply share some aspects from them.

For those who just care about my own stance, I'd say I'm mainly a mix of Logic #4, #5 and Emotion #2. But since I'm more-so on the Logical side I voted for Logic.

Logic

1. Cold Logic
This is what most people first jump to when it comes to logic in this context. The guy whose cold, ruthless, calculating, and will say anything no matter how hurtful if they find it true. This could be from sheer a cold exterior, a big lack of social skills, maybe they have an insane fondness for honesty. But these types of people generally are a minority I find. Everyone has their moments of being here, but rarely are they in this state for a prolonged period of time.

2. Logical for themselves
The other kind people often tend to jump to when they hear logic. This is the person who isn't entirely cold/blunt, but rather looking at everything from a "How can this aid me?" perspective. Basically, look at politicians, GOT characters or most bandits in apocalypse situations. Like above though, this is usually something I find people more just tend to visit during bad times in their life, and not something people tend to stay in given the choice.

3. Logical for others
Spock being your prime example. They try to operate largely on logic, but not in a self benefit for cold manner but out of what's deemed as needed for people as a whole. They look at the big picture, and the community at large, not letting stuff like personal bias enter the picture much. This is the ideal of logic I think many people (including myself) envision Logic to be when they pick that side, but in practice it often doesn't work out that way... Because sadly we are not Vulcans but Humans.

4. Forced Logic
This camp is where one feels more forced into the logical role, of evaluating things, and trying to have it be separate from emotions. Not out of any ill-intent, but rather out of a perceived necessity. They've had enough moments of emotion hurting them they feel the best case of future well being is to simply try to cut it out (or at least limit it) of the equation. However, since this one is more emotionally inspired, you can make an argument for this one being more emotional than logical, and that the logic is more just a mask. And personally speaking I feel I also subscribe in this camp rather well.

5. Logic of Emotion
People who make use of a vast variety of normally seen emotional tactics. Sugar coating, withholding information, getting a bit too emotionally invested in something. But the motivations when dug into don't resemble that of an emotional person but rather a logical person. They've seen the benefits of emotion may it be through seeing the works of creative people, simply observing people, stuff like Autism therapy etc. But they themselves don't make decisions based on emotions, but rather just adopt the social customs or habits of one. In fact the author Daniel Pink of the book "A Whole New Mind" works a bit on this (granted he looks at it more as a Left Brained VS Right Brained sort of deal) where he considers himself rather logical by nature, but desires to be more emotional and creative as a result of seeing what they can do. This should honestly be divided into two camps of it's own, one being those who simply learn to imitate, and those who actively try to train/re-wire their brains differently.

*Note on Logical Truth Telling*

It should also be noted that being logically honest =/= just insulting them.
I've seen many cases of people who claim to be (and sometimes often are) logical people, but when they are trying to correct someone they don't like it comes a lot less like "This is a problem we need to talk about" but more "You are a problem. I don't like you, now fix it with this limited information or I have been proven correct". There are ways to getting the truth to something without attacking them, but also without being around the bush. You just usually require a certain level of sensitivity, care and understanding towards the individual in question to pull it off properly. And sometimes even if you do it right, the other person might still get defensive and shrug you off. But just because that happens doesn't mean truth telling isn't as black and white as "Insult their very core" VS "Ignore it because of bad feelings".

Emotion

1. Feelings are most Important

This is likely the main image of emotion for most people when it comes to this topic. Those who prize the feelings and mood of others, their priority isn't to get something right, but to get people happy. If everyone walks off with a smile that's the best answer they can think of. If that's not possible (assuming they accept that possibility) whatever leaves the least amount of people offended is best.

2. Going with their Gut
These people don't go so much off of what makes others smile, but rather off their own hunches. What do they feel is right? What do they feel like that should do? How does a certain decision feel like to them? If it's not something they feel they can morally get behind, they likely aren't going to support it. This could be from anything, pride, a set moral code, respect, loyalty, maybe it just varies a ton day to day.

3. Loyal to the Pack
Now, everyone has those individuals that they treasure more than others. Those they would go above and beyond for, sometimes even taking a bullet for them. This is that at another level though, this is those who would much rather at best keep a poles distance between most people, and at worst not give a single shit about everyone else. But when it comes to those they can warmed up to and gotten close to? They will consistently go above and beyond, not just in times of importance, but all the time. These people passed, they deserve to be respected for it. Or maybe they're not that outwardly expressive even then, but the shift in character between most people and their loved ones is much more drastic than it would be for most people.

There's probably more camps here (and for Logic too) than I can't think of at the moment. But being someone who usually likes surrounding myself with people on the Logic side of the fence, my exposure to this side just isn't as high. So if others have more to add, and/or want to correct one's I've made above then feel free to.

>_> My problem with polls that turn these complex things into a binary option is that it seems to imply that anyone who votes for one option is more clearly aligned with one thing than the other, when, like I said, I definitely think that this sort of thing depends on the situation at hand.
There is no particular situation. It's a gut reaction answer. I learned it from a psychology major friend of mine recently and thought it was neat, so I'll let you in on it, because you're pretty sharp, so I figure you might find this interesting too.
Well that answer/reasoning of Brovo's was interesting. XD

But I can still see the worry of people feeling either:

A) In the minority if the majority vote swings one way, even if by a small leaning
B) Starting to see others differently as a result

So I'd suggest at least giving a "Strongly Logic" "Logic" etc. options. So people still need to pick a side, but aren't instantly lumped with any extreme.
Or, would this still ruin the test for a reason I'm not catching here?
If you want someone to do something for you, or someone to understand your approach to life, you need to treat them like a human being. Everyone is motivated by some kind of emotion or need. The sooner you understand that, and the sooner you learn to work with it, the easier time you'll have in the real world. If you interact with people in any capacity, you need to learn at least basic social skills, and a lot of that is appealing to - or at least understanding - the emotional needs of people around you.

I know some people have a really hard time with this, especially some (some!) people on the autism spectrum, but I always have to shake my head when I see someone insist that logic is the most important thing ever, if you can't separate logic from emotion then you're bad at living! That's not how the real world works. That's not how any of this works.
True, but speaking as an Autistic person whose been in therapy from both the child and therapist side?

At that point I'd consider that a Logical person learning the tools of the trade, depending on how they used them.
Like, it's entirely possible for an autistic person to learn the social skills, grow attached to them, and follow them the same as most others because it feels right to.

But then you got those (like myself) who more learn it as an effective face, you understand the social game (at least the basics) and know to act and behave in order to appease people, and/or you know that by appealing to their emotions you are bound to get a better response. But your own reasoning for doing so isn't always emotional, but rather you simply know that it's bound to give you a better outcome.

Now note, there are plenty of cases where I'm appealing to emotions for my own sake, and not for any logical means. But I do also have a fair share of moments for no reason other than "If I don't the reaction will be awful", and in those cases it really is just logic riding the decision (minus my lack of desire to argue with people, which would be an emotional influence).

Basically, my #5 Logic of Emotion mentioned above.
 
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But I can still see the worry it people feeling either:

A) In the minority of the majority vote swings one way, even if by a small leaning
B) Starting to see others differently as a result

So I'd suggest at least giving a "Strongly Logic" "Logic" etc. options. So people still need to pick a side, but aren't instantly lumped with any extreme.
Or, would this still ruin the test for a reason I'm not catching here?
Nah. The point of polls like these is to force a preference. It's far too easy for someone to say "I'm a neutral." There is no investment and no risk in saying that you are a neutral in pretty well any discussion out there, save where like, 98% of the population believes strongly one way or the other. (Ex: If you're neutral in the debate of whether or not the moon landings were faked, you're an idiot.)

Note, that this poll does not exclusively state or preclude an absolute leaning or even just a slight leaning. It does not ask "how far do you side with logic" if you choose logic: It just asks if you chose logic. If that choice is slight, or extreme, that's irrelevant. In the same way about asking a person about whether they are a theist or an atheist: Unless they don't understand the question (ex: answering "agnostic"), it's a simple "are you X or Y" question. How far or extremely you are influenced by or believe in X or Y, is simply not relevant, because it's not asked.

So yes, it would ruin the poll if I offered shades of grey in the answers: Because the point of the poll is to make those who are emotionally leaning uncomfortable so they can't immediately answer. It demonstrates the difference in thinking patterns between the logical and the emotional, but it only works if you put two answers which trip the more emotional person into indecision.
 
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Often times when I run into this question people seem to see it as only two camps (even after the disclaimers of 'everyone's a mix, but for polls sake pick a side' has been made).
So I feel the need to expand the camps a bit just to get my own position across.

*Remember even these camps are still greatly generalized, and by nature extreme. And no one is simply going to be just one of these camps, but rather simply share some aspects from them.

For those who just care about my own stance, I'd say I'm mainly a mix of Logic #4, #5 and Emotion #2. But since I'm more-so on the Logical side I voted for Logic.

Logic

1. Cold Logic
This is what most people first jump to when it comes to logic in this context. The guy whose cold, ruthless, calculating, and will say anything no matter how hurtful if they find it true. This could be from sheer a cold exterior, a big lack of social skills, maybe they have an insane fondness for honesty. But these types of people generally are a minority I find. Everyone has their moments of being here, but rarely are they in this state for a prolonged period of time.

2. Logical for themselves
The other kind people often tend to jump to when they hear logic. This is the person who isn't entirely cold/blunt, but rather looking at everything from a "How can this aid me?" perspective. Basically, look at politicians, GOT characters or most bandits in apocalypse situations. Like above though, this is usually something I find people more just tend to visit during bad times in their life, and not something people tend to stay in given the choice.

3. Logical for others
Spock being your prime example. They try to operate largely on logic, but not in a self benefit for cold manner but out of what's deemed as needed for people as a whole. They look at the big picture, and the community at large, not letting stuff like personal bias enter the picture much. This is the ideal of logic I think many people (including myself) envision Logic to be when they pick that side, but in practice it often doesn't work out that way... Because sadly we are not Vulcans but Humans.

4. Forced Logic
This camp is where one feels more forced into the logical role, of evaluating things, and trying to have it be separate from emotions. Not out of any ill-intent, but rather out of a perceived necessity. They've had enough moments of emotion hurting them they feel the best case of future well being is to simply try to cut it out (or at least limit it) of the equation. However, since this one is more emotionally inspired, you can make an argument for this one being more emotional than logical, and that the logic is more just a mask. And personally speaking I feel I also subscribe in this camp rather well.

5. Logic of Emotion
People who make use of a vast variety of normally seen emotional tactics. Sugar coating, withholding information, getting a bit too emotionally invested in something. But the motivations when dug into don't resemble that of an emotional person but rather a logical person. They've seen the benefits of emotion may it be through seeing the works of creative people, simply observing people, stuff like Autism therapy etc. But they themselves don't make decisions based on emotions, but rather just adopt the social customs or habits of one. In fact the author Daniel Pink of the book "A Whole New Mind" works a bit on this (granted he looks at it more as a Left Brained VS Right Brained sort of deal) where he considers himself rather logical by nature, but desires to be more emotional and creative as a result of seeing what they can do. This should honestly be divided into two camps of it's own, one being those who simply learn to imitate, and those who actively try to train/re-wire their brains differently.

*Note on Logical Truth Telling*

It should also be noted that being logically honest =/= just insulting them.
I've seen many cases of people who claim to be (and sometimes often are) logical people, but when they are trying to correct someone they don't like it comes a lot less like "This is a problem we need to talk about" but more "You are a problem. I don't like you, now fix it with this limited information or I have been proven correct". There are ways to getting the truth to something without attacking them, but also without being around the bush. You just usually require a certain level of sensitivity, care and understanding towards the individual in question to pull it off properly. And sometimes even if you do it right, the other person might still get defensive and shrug you off. But just because that happens doesn't mean truth telling isn't as black and white as "Insult their very core" VS "Ignore it because of bad feelings".

Emotion

1. Feelings are most Important

This is likely the main image of emotion for most people when it comes to this topic. Those who prize the feelings and mood of others, their priority isn't to get something right, but to get people happy. If everyone walks off with a smile that's the best answer they can think of. If that's not possible (assuming they accept that possibility) whatever leaves the least amount of people offended is best.

2. Going with their Gut
These people don't go so much off of what makes others smile, but rather off their own hunches. What do they feel is right? What do they feel like that should do? How does a certain decision feel like to them? If it's not something they feel they can morally get behind, they likely aren't going to support it. This could be from anything, pride, a set moral code, respect, loyalty, maybe it just varies a ton day to day.

3. Loyal to the Pack
Now, everyone has those individuals that they treasure more than others. Those they would go above and beyond for, sometimes even taking a bullet for them. This is that at another level though, this is those who would much rather at best keep a poles distance between most people, and at worst not give a single shit about everyone else. But when it comes to those they can warmed up to and gotten close to? They will consistently go above and beyond, not just in times of importance, but all the time. These people passed, they deserve to be respected for it. Or maybe they're not that outwardly expressive even then, but the shift in character between most people and their loved ones is much more drastic than it would be for most people.

There's probably more camps here (and for Logic too) than I can think of at the moment. But being someone who usually likes surrounding myself with people on the Logic side of the fence, my exposure to this side just isn't as high. So if others have more to add, and/or want to correct one's I've made above then feel free to.



Well that answer/reasoning of Brovo's was interesting. XD

But I can still see the worry it people feeling either:

A) In the minority of the majority vote swings one way, even if by a small leaning
B) Starting to see others differently as a result

So I'd suggest at least giving a "Strongly Logic" "Logic" etc. options. So people still need to pick a side, but aren't instantly lumped with any extreme.
Or, would this still ruin the test for a reason I'm not catching here?

True, but speaking as an Autistic person whose been in therapy from both the child and therapist side?

At that point I'd consider that a Logical person learning the tools of the trade, depending on how they used them.
Like, it's entirely possible for an autistic person to learn the social skills, grow attached to them, and follow them the same as most others because it feels right to.

But then you got those (like myself) who more learn it as an effective face, you understand the social game (at least the basics) and know to act and behave in order to appease people, and/or you know that by appealing to their emotions you are bound to get a better response. But your own reasoning for doing so isn't always emotional, but rather you simply know that it's bound to give you a better outcome.

Now note, there are plenty of cases where I'm appealing to emotions for my own sake, and not for any logical means. But I do also have a fair share of moments for no reason other than "If I don't the reaction will be awful", and in those cases it really is just logic riding the decision (minus the lack of desire to argue with people).

Basically, my #5 Logic of Emotion mentioned above.
Thank you so much for posting this, it was very insightful and informative. After reading it I feel as though I'm mainly a mix of all 3 emotion camps, with a bit of Logic #3 and #5 sprinkled on top.
 
So in the end, in most cases (not all--there's always exceptions), logical people pick the logical answer, as their thinking is based on "must come to solution with whatever information is presently available." Emotional people pick no answer at all, because to pick either answer presents too many unknowns for them to feel satisfied with their choice. One implies more strictly problem-solving based thinking, the other implies more strictly out of the box, artistic thinking.
If we're going MBTI, it typically describes the road of least resistance (hence the 5+ options of agree to disagree on most tests, for the explanation you've given,) but typically experience and environment cause some form of noise. For example, it is much easier for me to make judgements based on instinct and feeling, something I'll fall back on when under high amounts of stress (good luck ever catching that over the interwebz, but still) but in daily life I'm far closer to TP. Most answers people give to these kinds of tests display their tendency towards how they act in daily life. So the test you're taking is more conscious choice than subconscious nature, because of the noise.

What is fairly interesting though, is that a lot of this subconscious expresses itself in body language, something to which the relevance is being studied in regards to athleticism. Pretty interesting, if y-ou ever have a day off with nothing to do.

@Gwazi Magnum If you want a result of any kind, you have to calculate in people's swing of things. One test for example, that went around campus when I studied psychology, included a 5-option about the frequency of alcohol in-take. It was basically, never, rarely, sometimes, often, a lot. However, each of those options had a number attached to them. But there were two tests. One had the numbers 0, 5, 10, 15, 20. The other 0, 10, 20, 30, 40. Now the funny thing is, regardless of those numbers, people answered the options in similar numbers. ie, few dared answering a lot and would instead sway for often. Even if the second test's often was like 10 higher than the first one's a lot.

Same with neutral options, people pick desirables over concrete measurable data. So you have to account for this with these tests.
 
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Same with neutral options, people pick desirables over concrete measurable data. So you have to account for this with these tests.
This is also why data sourced via statistics is notoriously unreliable. Statistics merely show what people believe or are willing to say, they don't necessarily reflect reality. Hysteria is legitimately a mentally transmittable condition for the unwary, and emotions warp one's own conception of reality in ways they don't understand.

The human mind is powerful and yet ever so fallible...
 
I wish to exempt myself from this question because it is a discussion about human ideals.
 
This is also why data sourced via statistics is notoriously unreliable. Statistics merely show what people believe or are willing to say, they don't necessarily reflect reality. Hysteria is legitimately a mentally transmittable condition for the unwary, and emotions warp one's own conception of reality in ways they don't understand.

The human mind is powerful and yet ever so fallible...
Well, self-reporting. Not statistics in general. Observation by a third party is more reliable, though as always, has some human bias. Psychology is not that high on the purity scale science-wise, and we're not quite there yet with a portable/undetectable MRI.

EDIT: Also, to answer the actual question. I picked logic because it is an X or Y question exactly. There is a lot to be said for, well, empathy for a large part, given we're a social species. However recognising patterns generally gives me more reliable solutions for a greater multitude of problems I find. Also personally I fucking hate people trying to project how they think I must feel, whereas tone usually doesn't bother me as much if there's a valid point to be made.

EDIT2: Also the whole hysteria thing is a part of social bonding and conditioning. It's as transmittable as stress is, or a system of beliefs.
 
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Logic.

Life requires both though in good balance. Though logic and truth should always trump "I feel like this is wrong.." When it's objectively not.
 
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