Opinions in Fandoms

[SacredWarrior]

Yo, I realized I linked an extreme example, but just because a game manages to be decent or even good doesn't mean it's perfect enough to not have a single tiny thing that anyone would consider imbalanced or flawed. And you certainly can't say that "fighting games" as a whole can't have that problem.

I mean, look at all the tiny little tweaks they made to characters' movesets when Smash 4 came out. They took away Pit's up+B, for example, because it made it way too easy to recover from a fall. Characters like Kirby and Jigglypuff already had recoveries that sort of allowed them to 'fly', but even then, there were limits. Pit, though? His recovery put even characters like those to shame. It was just too good. And that's why they changed it.

A game doesn't have to be Sonic '06 in order to have certain points that can legitimately be called unfair. And saying that all fighting games are immune to such criticisms? That's just ridiculous.

I said MOST fighting games. Not ALL fighting games.

When people complain about certain characters being unfair, they usually aren't unfair. They're just too lazy to find out more about the character and how to fight against them. Mortal Kombat X is literally one of the most balanced fighting games we have right now and I'm not even that good at Mortal Kombat which is why I don't complain about certain characters in the first place. I'm not skilled enough.

I never said a game had to be Sonic 06 to be called unfair but if you're gonna complain about something or someone being unfair, make sure it's because of bad game design and not your obvious lack of skill. Like Meta Knight being broken at hell in SSB Brawl. THAT was bad game design. As for Pit's up+B, before it was changed, yes it was slightly OP but I've also seen people counter it as well.

For example: My main fighting game is Dead or Alive 5 Last Round and I'm fairly decent at it. My main character is Tina and my secondary is Christie (who's also one of if not THE best character in the game). I've seen people complain constantly about Christie being overpowered when she's clearly NOT and she can beaten easily. Granted I may be a bit biased about that since I use her but it only proves my point.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

Weird.

It's almost as if fandoms are the fucking worst.

 

[Kagayours]

I said MOST fighting games. Not ALL fighting games.

When people complain about certain characters being unfair, they usually aren't unfair. They're just too lazy to find out more about the character and how to fight against them. Mortal Kombat X is literally one of the most balanced fighting games we have right now and I'm not even that good at Mortal Kombat which is why I don't complain about certain characters in the first place. I'm not skilled enough.

I never said a game had to be Sonic 06 to be called unfair but if you're gonna complain about something or someone being unfair, make sure it's because of bad game design and not your obvious lack of skill. Like Meta Knight being broken at hell in SSB Brawl. THAT was bad game design. As for Pit's up+B, before it was changed, yes it was slightly OP but I've also seen people counter it as well.

For example: My main fighting game is Dead or Alive 5 Last Round and I'm fairly decent at it. My main character is Tina and my secondary is Christie (who's also one of if not THE best character in the game). I've seen people complain constantly about Christie being overpowered when she's clearly NOT and she can beaten easily. Granted I may be a bit biased about that since I use her but it only proves my point.

Ok, and, like I said, I don't know anything about the game in question -- so I didn't know if this person was right in calling it unfair.

I was only reacting to the fact that you seemed to be saying that you can't call something unfair, and that it's always just the player's fault. ...Or that a game doesn't have problems if it isn't glitchy and broken as hell like Sonic '06.

Mortal Kombat X is balanced, you say? Ok, I'll take your word for it. Like I said, I don't know anything about the game, so... yeah.

 

[SacredWarrior]

Ok, and, like I said, I don't know anything about the game in question -- so I didn't know if this person was right in calling it unfair.

I was only reacting to the fact that you seemed to be saying that you can't call something unfair, and that it's always just the player's fault. ...Or that a game doesn't have problems if it isn't glitchy and broken as hell like Sonic '06.

Mortal Kombat X is balanced, you say? Ok, I'll take your word for it. Like I said, I don't know anything about the game, so... yeah.

Sorry for not clarifying myself better :(

You should try out the game! It's pretty damn good although the microtransactions and some of the unlocks being tied to the mobile version are ANNOYING >:(

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Perfect example of a broken fighting move.

 

[Cpt Toellner]

Is Halo 5 even out yet? My wife (IN FOLLY AGAINST MY WISHES) bought an Xbox One. Might gamefly it and smoke my way through it just so I've fair reason to gripe.

I just watched the cut-scenes on youtube shortly after it came out. Halo 4 hurt me, it hurt me bad. And while Halo 5 seemed to recognize that they fucked with the old feel of the games, they did nothing to fix that. It seemed lazy, unoriginal, and I am SICK AND FUCKING TIRED OF FUCKING CORTANA. Seriously, how long to we have to bang the same damn drum? John-117 and Cortana should have remained on that ship, with their future unknown while the story covered new characters. The only thing that really grabbed me was the events on Senghelios, and even then it felt sloppy.

So here, enjoy my favorite track from the OST of a game I will never play;

 

[Legens Legentis]

THE GETH ARE UNFAIRLY TREATED!

SYNTHETIC RIGHTS!

CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE MEAT SLEEVES!

#MakeRannochGreatAgain

 

[Kestrel]

It's almost as if fandoms are the fucking worst.

This.

Interests are not the sole all-encompassing of your identity. "I'm a gamer, I'm a goth, I'm a feminist." All kinds of labels I've seen people use to define their selves. I don't even care which. Fandoms tend to consist of people who use these interests for a disproportional part to define who they are. Congregate that, create a sense of community of the like-minded that says this is okay and you'll soon see that discussing these subjects in a way disagreeable to them is akin a personal attack. Deriving a sense of self solely from a sub-standard like some kind of interest and grouping people like that soon becomes akin watching dawn of the dead. Emotional zombies, who are essentially compensating for the oldest philosophical question; who am I?

Despite the above paragraph, I'm not even sure if I can fault them for that, though.

 

[Kagayours]

This.

Interests are not the sole all-encompassing of your identity. "I'm a gamer, I'm a goth, I'm a feminist." All kinds of labels I've seen people use to define their selves. I don't even care which. Fandoms tend to consist of people who use these interests for a disproportional part to define who they are. Congregate that, create a sense of community of the like-minded that says this is okay and you'll soon see that discussing these subjects in a way disagreeable to them is akin a personal attack. Deriving a sense of self solely from a sub-standard like some kind of interest and grouping people like that soon becomes akin watching dawn of the dead. Emotional zombies, who are essentially compensating for the oldest philosophical question; who am I?

Despite the above paragraph, I'm not even sure if I can fault them for that, though.

Eh. I guess I'll throw an unpopular opinion out there and say that I really don't think everyone in a "fandom" is trying to make that "all encompassing" of their identity. @_@ I've been to conventions and met a lot of people who are pretty big into a variety of fandoms, and met a lot of these people online. A lot of these people are... enthusiastic, yes, but they're also using one of their passions as a way to meet other people, create fanart and other fan projects, and just have a good time with other people. I totally understand where people are coming from with the ugly side of fandoms, but it kind of bugs me to see fandoms being portrayed as consisting only of people who are looking to get into fights and blow things out of proportion. A lot of people aren't like that. A lot of people, even the ones who would normally be considered to be really into the fandom, just aren't looking for controversy. A lot of them are just looking to talk about the things that they love, or even create some cool stuff for the fandom community. Yeah, it can be a bit of an echo-chamber sometimes -- but, if all that people are talking about is which characters/ships are the best, then, isn't that fairly harmless, as far as echo-chambers go? I'm not denying that things can go bad places sometimes, but... I dunno. I just don't think that the entire concept of fandoms is really to blame for the "extremists" of it -- just like with any group.

Oh, and saying that people in fandoms solely derive their sense of self from one thing? I think that's a bit much. Yeah, there are definitely people who can come off as really enthusiastic and seem to dedicate their entire life to something, but... I think claiming that they don't even have a sense of self beyond that is a bit much. Just because someone can seem to be completely absorbed into something on the surface doesn't mean there isn't more to their personality beyond that. Humans are complicated creatures, and maybe we shouldn't assume that everyone is as one-dimensional as they might at first seem. >_>




But I mean I know that that's a super-unpopular opinion so like odds are no one will agree with me and I guess I'll accept that.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Congregate that, create a sense of community of the like-minded that says this is okay and you'll soon see that discussing these subjects in a way disagreeable to them is akin a personal attack.

On a lesser extreme, this might help explain what eventually made me stop going to anime club. Me watching Anime at a more casual/relaxed pace could of eventually been coming off as uncaring, which if people are identifying under the fandom might have been seen as a personal attack. :/

But I mean I know that that's a super-unpopular opinion so like odds are no one will agree with me and I guess I'll accept that.

I think most people already understand this Kaga. :P

It's just that those people are:

a) Just discussing the extremists, also assuming everyone understands the casuals
b) Have assigned a negative relation to the word "Fandom" so the people you're describing wouldn't fall under Fandom in their mind

 

[Kagayours]

I think most people already understand this Kaga. :P

It's just that those people are:

a) Just discussing the extremists, also assuming everyone understands the casuals
b) Have assigned a negative relation to the word "Fandom" so the people you're describing wouldn't fall under Fandom in their mind

@_@ Except, I'm still talking about the super-enthusiastic fans... not just casual fans. Which I think is what a lot of people think of when it comes to the more conservative definition of "fandom". ...And I still don't think that a "fandom" by that definition is an entirely bad thing.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

@_@ Except, I'm still talking about the super-enthusiastic fans... not just casual fans. Which I think is what a lot of people think of when it comes to the more conservative definition of "fandom". ...And I still don't think that a "fandom" by that definition is an entirely bad thing.

In that post I meant 'extremeist' not in terms of enthusiasm but in terms of identity politics.
Bassicaly, extreme = how likely a person is to treat it as a Us VS Them (may it be literally, or just looking down on those who down share the same enthusiasm).

 

[Kagayours]

In that post I meant 'extremeist' not in terms of enthusiasm but in terms of identity politics.
Bassicaly, extreme = how likely a person is to treat it as a Us VS Them (may it be literally, or just looking down on those who down share the same enthusiasm).

Except no one said anything about such a specific definition of extremist. All I saw here was just "fandoms are bad". Which is a view I've been seeing a lot around here, which was why I finally decided to speak up and mention some things -- not just in the whole "I tend to define 'being in the fandom' as just 'being a fan'" sort of way (which has already come up a number of times, iirc) but also like "even if you define 'being in the fandom' as being 'completely head-over-heels obsessed', I still don't think they're quite the scum of the earth that a lot of people here are making them out to be".

I mean, if you think fandoms (defining 'fandoms' at this point as being the very enthusiastic fans) are obnoxious, then, well, I can totally understand where you're coming from, and I really can't fault you for it. But if you think of fandoms as always being the scummy, controversy-seeking people who are "solely defining their identity based on this one thing that they like", well... I just don't think that's entirely accurate -- again, even under a more conservative definition of 'fandom' that leans towards the more extreme side of things to begin with.

Because, while I can see where people are coming from with the ugly side of fandoms, I still think that what a lot of people are seeking when they 'join' a fandom is just... fun. Finding other people who are just as enthusiastic about a thing as they are and trying to create a fun community out of it. In fact, here's the crazy thing -- even on Tumblr (fucking Tumblr of all places), I've actually seen way more posts that condemn the sort of behavior we associate with fandom "extremists" than those that encourage it. I've seen countless posts telling people to not be a dick about the things that other people do or don't like, countless posts reminding people not to lose your shit over other people's ships, and countless posts saying things like "oh I just want to thank all the fan-artists and fanfic-writers that exist because you just add so much to this fandom and I'm so grateful for the effort you put into this stuff". And even if you think that fanfiction and fanart is dumb or whatever, at least there's still this vibe of positivity surrounding it all.

Like I said, if you still think that fandoms in general, along with all their fanart and fanfictions, are dumb and obnoxious then, I have to admit, I can definitely see where you're coming from. But saying the entire concept of a fandom is inherently toxic and malicious? Now that's where I disagree. I've seen way more people, proudly identifying themselves as being "in a fandom", who encourage the positive vibes and community-feel of a fandom than those that feed into the negative parts of it.



I admit, I got a bit away from the point I was trying to make at the start of this post. More in response to what you were saying, Gwazi, I think now is the part where we should stop trying to put words in other people's mouths and just ask @Kestrel and @Grumpy how exactly they were trying to define "fandom" when they said that "fandoms are bad", if they'd like to step forward and clarify. If not, then, trying to debate what exactly they meant seems kind of pointless. >_>

 

[Kestrel]

I dunno. I just don't think that the entire concept of fandoms is really to blame for the "extremists" of it -- just like with any group.

No, this is actually a fair point. To take another example, when I play MMO's, people in guilds are usually pretty cool. Until you start going to fora or too many PUGs (pick-up-groups, basically being tossed in with random people for a dungeon) where the toxicity of the few create an action-reaction chain in the entire community. ie; person good, people bad.

I am reminded of me saying I don't like Steven Universe and you offered to explain genuinely what people like about it. While there was some gushing in that, the distinction I've made was that A.) You made the effort to explain why you personally like it, rather than say why it's the best thing ever. B.) You accept different opinions and were respectful of them. C.) I didn't get the impression you felt you were personally attacked. So, if you consider yourself part of the Steven Universe fandom, I wouldn't consider you one of the 'rabid toxic fans' for the lack of a better descriptor. I've slept ~4 hours, I can't think of anything better. I don't really have a say on whether you are part of a fandom or not, so take the following with a grain of salt, but I personally do not associate you with some of the more negative behaviours I've seen come out of fandoms. If that explanation makes any sense.

However, despite not everyone being extreme, this is a lot of what is communicated to the outside. There's something to be said for the silent majority, but because few of those engage or initiate the conversation, most of us are exposed to the crusaders of the fandom. Perhaps disproportionally so. idk. Or maybe a lot of good people get sucked in by the culture created by the bad and more defensive persons, or struggle with judgement based on their likes each day (this is why gamer is an 'identity' whereas book-reader or movie-watcher is not) and the reaction to this scrutiny is more extreme because their passion is not socially accepted. I also think there are different standards of acceptable inside and outside of a group. Just like having one group of friends where you throw slurs at each other at the drop of a hat, whereas doing the same kinda trashtalk on your cousin's birthday party would have your family disown you. Whatever it is, though, I suppose it'd be more fair to say my description is of the more extreme atmosphere communicated to the outside, rather than your personal experience as a part of the community. 'cause generalisation.

On a lesser extreme, this might help explain what eventually made me stop going to anime club. Me watching Anime at a more casual/relaxed pace could of eventually been coming off as uncaring, which if people are identifying under the fandom might have been seen as a personal attack. :/

This also. Saying "Homestuck/undertale/Steven Universe doesn't appeal to me." is kind of like tweeting #NotAllMen. People who experienced rejection similar to each other's, who then band together, have an extra-strong out-group response.

 

[Astaroth]

See, there are good sides of fandom and bad sides of fandom.

The good side of fandom creates funny gifs and writes incredibly interesting fic or draws amazing fanart and has intelligent what-if discussions or critically dissects canon in a civil manner.

The bad side of fandom attacks people who don't agree with them and sees problems where they don't exist.

And sometimes those things mix.

If this girl had written the same article from a standpoint of "why I like Jacqui Briggs and disagree with the haters" or even "why I like Jacqui and you should too", it would have been fine. She actually makes some good points in there. Unfortunately she nukes all potential of the article by giving completely unfounded accusations about racism/sexism motivating the dislike for the character. She doesn't even try to back up what she's saying; she presumes the situation with no evidence. Even if it were true, the way she writes it shoots down all credibility.

I participate in fandoms, though it definitely doesn't define who I am. I'd argue that many people participate in fandoms even if they don't call it that due to the negative connotations. I like to think I'm part of the good side. But I've definitely had more than one brush with the bad side- which invariably seems to derive from people taking their favorite characters/shipping way too fucking seriously.

 

[Kestrel]

If this girl had written the same article from a standpoint of "why I like Jacqui Briggs and disagree with the haters" or even "why I like Jacqui and you should too",

Actually, "and disagree with the haters" gives a negative and dismissive connotation to people on the other side of the argument, whereas "and you should too" is an attempt at taking away people's agency to make their own decisions based on the information presented to them. Nitpick, perhaps, and sure you'll get less clicks when leaving it out, but if you want to do the entire thing right, well, there you go.

 

[Kagayours]

No, this is actually a fair point. To take another example, when I play MMO's, people in guilds are usually pretty cool. Until you start going to fora or too many PUGs (pick-up-groups, basically being tossed in with random people for a dungeon) where the toxicity of the few create an action-reaction chain in the entire community. ie; person good, people bad.

I am reminded of me saying I don't like Steven Universe and you offered to explain genuinely what people like about it. While there was some gushing in that, the distinction I've made was that A.) You made the effort to explain why you personally like it, rather than say why it's the best thing ever. B.) You accept different opinions and were respectful of them. C.) I didn't get the impression you felt you were personally attacked. So, if you consider yourself part of the Steven Universe fandom, I wouldn't consider you one of the 'rabid toxic fans' for the lack of a better descriptor. I've slept ~4 hours, I can't think of anything better. I don't really have a say on whether you are part of a fandom or not, so take the following with a grain of salt, but I personally do not associate you with some of the more negative behaviours I've seen come out of fandoms. If that explanation makes any sense.

However, despite not everyone being extreme, this is a lot of what is communicated to the outside. There's something to be said for the silent majority, but because few of those engage or initiate the conversation, most of us are exposed to the crusaders of the fandom. Perhaps disproportionally so. idk. Or maybe a lot of good people get sucked in by the culture created by the bad and more defensive persons, or struggle with judgement based on their likes each day (this is why gamer is an 'identity' whereas book-reader or movie-watcher is not) and the reaction to this scrutiny is more extreme because their passion is not socially accepted. I also think there are different standards of acceptable inside and outside of a group. Just like having one group of friends where you throw slurs at each other at the drop of a hat, whereas doing the same kinda trashtalk on your cousin's birthday party would have your family disown you. Whatever it is, though, I suppose it'd be more fair to say my description is of the more extreme atmosphere communicated to the outside, rather than your personal experience as a part of the community. 'cause generalisation.


This also. Saying "Homestuck/undertale/Steven Universe doesn't appeal to me." is kind of like tweeting #NotAllMen. People who experienced rejection similar to each other's, who then band together, have an extra-strong out-group response.

Yeah, I agree that it all basically comes down to a vocal minority thing. I just wanted to speak up for the silent majority -- since it kind of bugs me to see the entire concept of people coming together over something they're enthusiastic about be condemned as something malicious and toxic when, to the majority of people participating in it, it really isn't. :/

Actually, "and disagree with the haters" gives a negative and dismissive connotation to people on the other side of the argument, whereas "and you should too" is an attempt at taking away people's agency to make their own decisions based on the information presented to them. Nitpick, perhaps, and sure you'll get less clicks when leaving it out, but if you want to do the entire thing right, well, there you go.

Eh. I see the whole "and you should too" thing thrown around on Tumblr a lot, and I wouldn't say it has a ton of weight to it. I don't think that someone adding that to a post necessarily means that that person isn't open to outside arguments.

 

[Dervish]

I personally prefer to be a fan of something rather than a part of the fandom, mostly because as has been pointed out, a few bad apples spoil the bunch, and the few fandom-based sites I checked out for a while were absolutely awful experiences. I can count on two hands the amount of topics I saw on the BioWare Social Network that was anything that was fun and good natured, or talking about theories. The rest of it honestly felt like the most entitled and whiny trash in the goddamn universe.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

This also. Saying "Homestuck/undertale/Steven Universe doesn't appeal to me." is kind of like tweeting #NotAllMen. People who experienced rejection similar to each other's, who then band together, have an extra-strong out-group response.

Not even so much saying it doesn't appeal to you, I'm talking still being a fan, just not as big a fan.
Like I still have an anime list of my own, big enough that I've had people who don't watch much anime look at it and go "Dude, that's a lot". But small enough the anime clubs look at it and go "How cute! And you think you know enough Anime to say what's good or not!".

So it's not even a #NotAllMen issue all the time, but rather it can sometimes be an issue of both being fans, just one more strongly than the other.

I personally prefer to be a fan of something rather than a part of the fandom, mostly because as has been pointed out, a few bad apples spoil the bunch, and the few fandom-based sites I checked out for a while were absolutely awful experiences. I can count on two hands the amount of topics I saw on the BioWare Social Network that was anything that was fun and good natured, or talking about theories. The rest of it honestly felt like the most entitled and whiny trash in the goddamn universe.

Oh God... Mass Effect is one of my favourite trilogies ever but by god does it's fan base suck. o_o
Like, if I knew someone beforehand and then learn we both like Mass Effect we're fine.

But when I go into the communities based around Mass Effect? All I can find is the most entitled, spoiled and self dividing fanbase I have ever seen. Seriously, the number of posts I found of people basically demanding Bioware does X with a certain character like they owed it to them was... Let's just say I turned tail and ran almost immediately after.

Thankfully they at least have enough sense to keep their drama among themselves, and not do anything that puts them on the news.

 

[Dervish]

Not even so much saying it doesn't appeal to you, I'm talking still being a fan, just not as big a fan.
Like I still have an anime list of my own, big enough that I've had people who don't watch much anime look at it and go "Dude, that's a lot". But small enough the anime clubs look at it and go "How cute! And you think you know enough Anime to say what's good or not!".

So it's not even a #NotAllMen issue all the time, but rather it can sometimes be an issue of both being fans, just one more strongly than the other.

Oh God... Mass Effect is one of my favourite trilogies ever but by god does it's fan base suck. o_o
Like, if I knew someone beforehand and then learn we both like Mass Effect we're fine.

But when I go into the communities based around Mass Effect? All I can find is the most entitled, spoiled and self dividing fanbase I have ever seen. Seriously, the number of posts I found of people basically demanding Bioware does X with a certain character like they owed it to them was... Let's just say I turned tail and ran almost immediately after.

Thankfully they at least have enough sense to keep their drama among themselves, and not do anything that puts them on the news.

Oh man, I know. The number of people demanding a full ending for bit NPCs was staggering. The key word really is demand; the fact that so many people felt they had a right for their little fantasies that the developer has the obligation to fulfill was unbearable. I rarely ever saw anyone who expressed gratitude for the hard work put into the series and even it existing in the first place, it was always "I'm boycotting BioWare because they didn't give that green asari a fully fleshed out story even though she's literally an NPC you can choose to kill after five minutes of chatting."