Mods with a Price Tag

[Protagonist]

Hm. That's a good point. Still, 50-50 doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

The good news though, is that as TotalBiscuit discussed, a lot of the more unfair practices of this will be weeded out by the market by people not purchasing useless stuff.

 

[Windsong]

Hm. That's a good point. Still, 50-50 doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

The good news though, is that as TotalBiscuit discussed, a lot of the more unfair practices of this will be weeded out by the market by people not purchasing useless stuff.

The ratio of smart customers is abysmally low compared to the people who just accept it as how things just are.

It's why speaking with your wallet against blatant dlc cash grabs didn't work.

 

[Darog]

That 75% is split between Bethsoft and Valve. It's not purely valves money.

That's not the point. These modders are only getting 25% of the cut, which isn't even that much, That's the major problem here, when talking about how much you get for making a mod.

Here are my thoughts: as a musician who has run across the scummy type Venue owner who goes "money? isn't the recognition and getting your music out there enough", Giving someone little to no profit for their work, is kinda dickish, honestly.

Also, this video v

 

[Windsong]

That's not the point. These modders are only getting 25% of the cut, which isn't even that much, That's the major problem here, when talking about how much you get for making a mod.

I wasn't saying it wasn't unfair, just that all of the money wasn't going purely to valve. What I've heard (from less than a reputable source, so grain of salt) was that it's a 45-30 split between Bethsoft and Valve. Beth gets more for being the owner, Valve less for being just the platform.

 

[Darog]

I wasn't saying it wasn't unfair, just that all of the money wasn't going purely to valve. What I've heard (from less than a reputable source, so grain of salt) was that it's a 45-30 split between Bethsoft and Valve. Beth gets more for being the owner, Valve less for being just the platform.

Oh, misread it, sorry about that.

 

[lostfaith]

This is all I have to say about this, really.

 

[Halo]

All the arguments about being nickle-and-dimed are bullshit. Firstly, the modders have the option to sell the mod - it's by no means compulsory. As far as I know, they can still put it up for free on the Workshop if they so wish - and if that isn't the case, they can use other services (Nexus, etc.) if they'd rather give it away. All this does is let the modders decide how much their hard work and time is worth, rather than consumers - just like literally every other service we use on a daily basis. That's pretty reasonable.

Everyone complaining about how it's unfair to have to pay $200 or something to have your Skyrim the way you want it, can you be any more entitled? You are not entitled to those mods, to the produce of the modding community, by default. It is not their responsibility to provide mods for you out of their own pocket. If they want to do that, great, that's very generous of them - but in no way, shape, or form is it reasonable to complain over paying for additional content that modders produce, if they choose to charge for it. That's insane. If you don't like the price, you just don't get the additional(!) content, just like we don't all go out and buy Lamborghinis (because the price tag is higher than we're willing to pay for the product.)

As for everyone complaining that the Workshop is crap, well - like anything else, if you don't want to download it you don't have to, and if the modders don't want to upload it there they can upload it elsewhere. And more importantly, how hasn't it occurred to anyone that this is Steam's attempt to make their Workshop better by making it competitive with places like Nexus, by adding incentive for modders to use it as a platform for their content? Previously, the Workshop apparently didn't allow donation links to be posted, which is why lots of people didn't use it. Hopefully, those producing the fantastic mods we know and love will now be attracted to use the Workshop and it will become awesome.

The only thing about this that's ridiculous is the 75% cut, and the issue with people ripping modders off by selling product that isn't theirs. The latter can hopefully be ironed out and sorted in time - remember this is very new as a system and there will be hiccups when trying to sort out how it all works. The former is what we should all be pissed off about, because there's no way that they need to take that kind of cut in order to make a tidy profit (even once the cost of hosting servers etc. is factored in, which, remember, they previously did for free.)

 

[MurderDeathKill]

The latter can hopefully be ironed out and sorted in time - remember this is very new as a system and there will be hiccups when trying to sort out how it all works.

Pretty sure people said the same thing about Steam Greenlight. ._.

 

[Brovo]

Firstly, the modders have the option to sell the mod - it's by no means compulsory.

Except that anyone can steal your free mod, sell it for profit, and then sue your free version away, in which you will be stuck in a protracted legal battle via civil court to prove that you were the one who created the mod. God forbid if you have to do this internationally where copyright laws differ.

All this does is let the modders decide how much their hard work and time is worth, rather than consumers - just like literally every other service we use on a daily basis. That's pretty reasonable.

Except everyone else doesn't have a 75% tariff on it. As an example: If taxation on businesses was that extreme, no business would survive. There is no way to breed fair competition when the people with the smallest possible level of power in the market are being punished the hardest.

Everyone complaining about how it's unfair to have to pay $200 or something to have your Skyrim the way you want it, can you be any more entitled?

It's not entitlement to desire that the game be cheaper than the PC I'm playing it on. Plus, I can object to something's price as the reason why I won't purchase it. If someone puts up a mod adding a new continent, or a companion with several lines of professional voice acting? Yeah, fuck, I'll pay a few bucks for that. No, I'm not going to pay 8 dollars for spell reskins, or texture mods. Especially when I know that 75% of that isn't even going to the creator of the mod, and is instead going to corporations who had no hand in that labour whatsoever. That's about as anti-capitalist as it gets, considering this "free market" isn't free.

It's not entitlement to declare that you won't buy a thing because the price it is set at (whatever that price) is too damn high. That's simply the consumer voicing why they won't acquire that product. Pretty simple shit, really.

It is not their responsibility to provide mods for you out of their own pocket.

No, but nobody implied forcing them into slave labour camps to produce mods 24/7. Jesus Christ, they do this of their own free will, and they're free to put their content up for sale of their own free will. Just like how Left4Dead was originally a modification of Counter Strike, got developed into a full product, and went up for sale--they're free to put it at whatever price they fuckin' feel like, and they've always been able to do this. Steam's system, however, is fucking atrocious. There is absolutely no quality control on steam, you can see it for yourself in the Greenlight section. If they can't even prune out the sea of garbage flooding their service in the form of games, explain how they'll do that for the tens of thousands of modifications on Skyrim alone. Cuz' you can bet this shitty system will spread from Skyrim to other games.

And more importantly, how hasn't it occurred to anyone that this is Steam's attempt to make their Workshop better by making it competitive with places like Nexus, by adding incentive for modders to use it as a platform for their content?

The primary reason people don't put mods up on the Workshop is because it's god forsaken bug ridden mess. I play Europa Universalis IV, every time there is an update, it breaks every single mod in the game because of the Workshop. There's nothing the developers can do to fix it either, Valve just doesn't give a fuck.

So Valve's solution to be competitive is to piss off its consumer base with a system that punishes content creators with a 75% tariff and no copyright protection whatsoever? If anything, this system is going to punish people who make fan mods for stuff like Dark Souls, since that IP is copyrighted, punting it on the workshop will probably get you sued now.

You do not increase the variety in a service by raping your content creators for cash and punishing the consumer when there are free alternatives available. This is why piracy is a thing: When it's more convenient to get it free, people will get it free. It's why Netflix is actually managing to combat piracy better than any DRM ever has: Because it's fucking convenient.

Previously, the Workshop apparently didn't allow donation links to be posted, which is why lots of people didn't use it.

Now, donation links still aren't allowed, and your only choice is a 75% tariff on your products, or to put them up free. Oh, and they can be copyright flagged now too.

Awesome. Great fucking system.

The latter can hopefully be ironed out and sorted in time - remember this is very new as a system and there will be hiccups when trying to sort out how it all works.

Greenlight has proven that Valve is totally incapable of quality control in the realm of hundreds of new products backed by visible corporations, how the hell is it gonna do it for thousands by anonymous individuals? This is like policing 4Chan: Good luck.

The former is what we should all be pissed off about, because there's no way that they need to take that kind of cut in order to make a tidy profit (even once the cost of hosting servers etc. is factored in, which, remember, they previously did for free.)

Yes, free. Even though you need to buy Skyrim from their service in the first place to even use these mods. "Free." Oh, and the DLC packs. "Free." When places like Nexus can manage to do it free, for hundreds of games, it's a shameful display when a corporation that rakes in tons of money from hats on TF2 can't manage it. If they have to, just throw ads on the download page like everyone else does, rather than punishing literally everyone to farm in free money. Bandwidth really doesn't cost that much for simple data file downloads. If it did, a service like Steam would not make nearly as much money as it does already, with millions of people downloading games all the time.

Don't snap at people for saying that this is bullshit. It is bullshit. It's a terrible, nonsensical system that shouldn't have been imposed in the first place. Valve should have just allowed content creators to link to donation pages if they really cared. Fact of the matter is: Valve doesn't. They just see an easy way to get money, damn the consequences, damn the content creators, damn the consumers. Is it evil? Fuck no. It's not evil for a corporation to do what it's designed to do: Make money. It is, however, shitty business practice that shouldn't be endorsed.

A taxi cab driver doesn't pay a 75% tariff to drive his taxi every time he picks up customers to the company that made his taxi. If any company in real life tried that, they would be sued into oblivion. So the fact that this is even remotely legal for software is already disgusting... Oh, and no, it doesn't make me entitled to point out bullshit and spit in the face of a company that only gives a shit about my money. I'm not demanding that modders be enslaved to create content for me, I'm demanding that the system which is currently in place for modders be gutted because it is absolute garbage in its current state.

EDIT

Oh look, someone tried to take down their paid for mods and Valve refused after Valve recommended them to just steal from someone else's shit to finish their own mod. See? Bullshit. Total fucking bullshit.

 

[Windsong]

Thank you, @Brovo for saying words in such a fashion that I never could.

 

[Jorick]

Others have already gone over this in detail, so I'll just chime in briefly on a few points. Overall I think modders getting money for their work is a cool idea, but this implementation is awful.

Allowing voluntary donations with some cut of no more than 50% going to the developers and publishers and such (because it is fair that they get a cut for someone else using their creation to make money), meaning a minimum of 50% of profits goes right to the modder, would have been far better in my opinion. No minimum price point setting would have given far less incentive for people to pull crap like stealing mods from websites like Nexus and posting them on the Steam Workshop as their own content, which is already happening.

Any kind of monetized mods requires real vetting to happen, because everything needs to be scrutinized for potential copyright infringement and false ownership claims and other fraudulent bullshit. Valve has already proven that they suck at vetting user submitted content, so they ought to have way stepped up their game and gotten their Greenlight system in working order before trying this. Very poor move on their part to do this now when Greenlight is still a mess.

I've got no qualms with the whole idea of paying money for mods, just in the same way as I have no problem with the idea of DLC. Lots of DLC is vapid bullshit that's nowhere near worth the price to me, and I expect the same of mods. Some DLC is amazing and absolutely worth paying for, and I expect the same of mods. The money for mods thing is not inherently bad, it's just this particular implementation that sucks.

 

[SlamifiedBuddafied]

I.
...
...
I don't know what to say about this. I started Steam earlier today and saw the message and began browsing the Skyrim mods.
I won't state much that hasn't already been stated other than one thing. I imagine quality may go up with some mods for creators who are really into their work and can now ascertain funds to focus more on being able to polish their mods. I imagine there is some kind of quality control which the people over at Valve are keeping an eye on (somehow).

Two cents, can't say much more.

 

[Halo]

Except that anyone can steal your free mod, sell it for profit, and then sue your free version away, in which you will be stuck in a protracted legal battle via civil court to prove that you were the one who created the mod. God forbid if you have to do this internationally where copyright laws differ.

Except everyone else doesn't have a 75% tariff on it. As an example: If taxation on businesses was that extreme, no business would survive. There is no way to breed fair competition when the people with the smallest possible level of power in the market are being punished the hardest.

It's not entitlement to desire that the game be cheaper than the PC I'm playing it on. Plus, I can object to something's price as the reason why I won't purchase it. If someone puts up a mod adding a new continent, or a companion with several lines of professional voice acting? Yeah, fuck, I'll pay a few bucks for that. No, I'm not going to pay 8 dollars for spell reskins, or texture mods. Especially when I know that 75% of that isn't even going to the creator of the mod, and is instead going to corporations who had no hand in that labour whatsoever. That's about as anti-capitalist as it gets, considering this "free market" isn't free.

It's not entitlement to declare that you won't buy a thing because the price it is set at (whatever that price) is too damn high. That's simply the consumer voicing why they won't acquire that product. Pretty simple shit, really.

No, but nobody implied forcing them into slave labour camps to produce mods 24/7. Jesus Christ, they do this of their own free will, and they're free to put their content up for sale of their own free will. Just like how Left4Dead was originally a modification of Counter Strike, got developed into a full product, and went up for sale--they're free to put it at whatever price they fuckin' feel like, and they've always been able to do this. Steam's system, however, is fucking atrocious. There is absolutely no quality control on steam, you can see it for yourself in the Greenlight section. If they can't even prune out the sea of garbage flooding their service in the form of games, explain how they'll do that for the tens of thousands of modifications on Skyrim alone. Cuz' you can bet this shitty system will spread from Skyrim to other games.

The primary reason people don't put mods up on the Workshop is because it's god forsaken bug ridden mess. I play Europa Universalis IV, every time there is an update, it breaks every single mod in the game because of the Workshop. There's nothing the developers can do to fix it either, Valve just doesn't give a fuck.

So Valve's solution to be competitive is to piss off its consumer base with a system that punishes content creators with a 75% tariff and no copyright protection whatsoever? If anything, this system is going to punish people who make fan mods for stuff like Dark Souls, since that IP is copyrighted, punting it on the workshop will probably get you sued now.

You do not increase the variety in a service by raping your content creators for cash and punishing the consumer when there are free alternatives available. This is why piracy is a thing: When it's more convenient to get it free, people will get it free. It's why Netflix is actually managing to combat piracy better than any DRM ever has: Because it's fucking convenient.

Now, donation links still aren't allowed, and your only choice is a 75% tariff on your products, or to put them up free. Oh, and they can be copyright flagged now too.

Awesome. Great fucking system.

Greenlight has proven that Valve is totally incapable of quality control in the realm of hundreds of new products backed by visible corporations, how the hell is it gonna do it for thousands by anonymous individuals? This is like policing 4Chan: Good luck.

Yes, free. Even though you need to buy Skyrim from their service in the first place to even use these mods. "Free." Oh, and the DLC packs. "Free." When places like Nexus can manage to do it free, for hundreds of games, it's a shameful display when a corporation that rakes in tons of money from hats on TF2 can't manage it. If they have to, just throw ads on the download page like everyone else does, rather than punishing literally everyone to farm in free money. Bandwidth really doesn't cost that much for simple data file downloads. If it did, a service like Steam would not make nearly as much money as it does already, with millions of people downloading games all the time.

Don't snap at people for saying that this is bullshit. It is bullshit. It's a terrible, nonsensical system that shouldn't have been imposed in the first place. Valve should have just allowed content creators to link to donation pages if they really cared. Fact of the matter is: Valve doesn't. They just see an easy way to get money, damn the consequences, damn the content creators, damn the consumers. Is it evil? Fuck no. It's not evil for a corporation to do what it's designed to do: Make money. It is, however, shitty business practice that shouldn't be endorsed.

A taxi cab driver doesn't pay a 75% tariff to drive his taxi every time he picks up customers to the company that made his taxi. If any company in real life tried that, they would be sued into oblivion. So the fact that this is even remotely legal for software is already disgusting... Oh, and no, it doesn't make me entitled to point out bullshit and spit in the face of a company that only gives a shit about my money. I'm not demanding that modders be enslaved to create content for me, I'm demanding that the system which is currently in place for modders be gutted because it is absolute garbage in its current state.

EDIT

Oh look, someone tried to take down their paid for mods and Valve refused after Valve recommended them to just steal from someone else's shit to finish their own mod. See? Bullshit. Total fucking bullshit.

Okay, so I unfortunately don't really have time to reply to everything point by point like you did, but I'm just going to thank you for almost entirely agreeing with me. I mean, I did specifically say that the only issues (and those things which people should be pissed off about) are the 75% tariff and this ridiculous issue with copyright/stealing (which I, and you, obviously hope will be ironed out in time.) As a large majority of what you said revolved around these two things, and the rest is mainly rhetoric ("punished", really?), there isn't too much more I can say.

 

[MurderDeathKill]

ALL DAT SHIT

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Firstly, the modders have the option to sell the mod - it's by no means compulsory.

No one suggested that it was.

All this does is let the modders decide how much their hard work and time is worth, rather than consumers - just like literally every other service we use on a daily basis. That's pretty reasonable.

Reasonable yes.

But it fights against the entire market system Mods operated around.
And when one Mod is demanding payment, and the majority of mods aren't?
Unless if that paid for mod is a damn good mod people are going to go with the free mods, that's just consumer demand.

Plus remember the only paid mod service is on Steam workshop.
Not only the place where quality control is awful, but also the fact that workshop doesn't co-operate with any mod manager for skyrim.
Any serious modder is not even going to be giving a mod on workshop any consideration, because grabbing it means a nightmare with load orders and file conflicts.

And then with all those contradictions being inherent with the system they need to pay on top of that?
There's nothing that workshop is offering that Nexus doesn't offer that better.

Everyone complaining about how it's unfair to have to pay $200 or something to have your Skyrim the way you want it, can you be any more entitled? You are not entitled to those mods, to the produce of the modding community, by default. It is not their responsibility to provide mods for you out of their own pocket.

And none's expecting people to be forced to pump out free mods.

But consumers at the same time are not being forced to pay for products they don't desire.
If they don't value mods highly enough to pay for them (which considering how conflict prone they are is a legitimate concern) then those modders asking for payment will quite simply not see much profit.
That's not entitlement, that's just supply and demand.

If you don't like the price, you just don't get the additional(!) content, just like we don't all go out and buy Lamborghinis (because the price tag is higher than we're willing to pay for the product.)

Agreed.

So why you took this easy to grasp concept and then turned around calling everyone else entitled for it is beyond me. :/

As for everyone complaining that the Workshop is crap, well - like anything else, if you don't want to download it you don't have to, and if the modders don't want to upload it there they can upload it elsewhere.

Which we've been saying for the entire thread so far.
So why you're acting like we've said otherwise is once again beyond me. :/

Plus, us choosing not to use workshop doesn't mean we're not allowed to criticize it and address flaws as we see them.

And more importantly, how hasn't it occurred to anyone that this is Steam's attempt to make their Workshop better by making it competitive with places like Nexus, by adding incentive for modders to use it as a platform for their content?

Because that wasn't workshops issue in comparison to Nexus?

Workshops issue is that is doesn't play nice with Mod Managers.
Mod Managers which are mandatory for anyone who takes modding semi-seriously.
So if the goal was to make it competitive with Nexus, there first step should have been to make it get along with managers.
That way it would be of equal quality to Nexus.

And then maybe go ahead and monetize mods.
But not in workshops current state of affairs.

Previously, the Workshop apparently didn't allow donation links to be posted, which is why lots of people didn't use it. Hopefully, those producing the fantastic mods we know and love will now be attracted to use the Workshop and it will become awesome.

It's not much of an incentive.
Only 25% profit, *if* the mod generates a certain amount of sales?
Which most people won't pay for because they're used to free mods?
And that smaller audience now also means less people willing to donate towards your mods?

If anything I'd expect there to be a decent chance that workshop authors are making less off of their mods than some of the Nexus guys from donations.
Donations which not only are from a much bigger audience, but where 100% of said money is going directly to the modders.

Now to clarify if workshop did the following.

1. Allowed it's mods to get along with Mod Managers.
2. Allows at least 50% of the profits to go towards the mod author, regardless of the amount sold.
3. Also allowed a donation button.
4. Fixed all the abuse and copyright concerns they're having.

Then I wouldn't have much to criticize.

I still probably wouldn't buy most of those mods because unlike DLC, a Mod is not guaranteed to always play nice with everything else you're running.
And I would still point out that enforcing a mandatory payment would likewise deter others away simply because of how they wish to spend their money.
But the system itself would function fine, and would far less issues as far as quality, distribution of profits and copyright shenanigans were concerned.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

And 2-3 hours of following & researching this later:

Gaben responds to criticisms on Reddit.
Gopher does a soundcloud podcast.

And two more videos from Gopher (three total now including the one I linked earlier in the thread), he's been covering this a lot.

I suggest that anyone who seriously cares about this at least see Gabens responses on the matter, but here's a TL;DR version for those who lack the time.

TL;DR

• Valve made a number of poor judgments and predictions. They are now working on improving the service so it works better.
• This includes giving all mods access to such a feature, with a 0$ minimum which is basically no different than before (though seriously, they need to let workshop play nice with load orders and compatibility).
• The hate speech and harassment that mod authors have been getting is outright barbaric. Seriously, it is. If you are one of the people who sent such harassment to a Mod Author you need to sit down, look in the mirror and think long and hard about what you did. Because quite honestly, anyone who did that has something fundamentally missing/wrong with them.
• In all likelihood the vast Majority of Mods will remain free, and most paid mods are likely to have a free equivalent (so my earlier 100$+ comment? Disregard what I said back there completely).
• If Valve and Bethesda can get their act together and fix the oversights (which Valve is already trying to do) this works as an amazing means to creating freelance DLC, better quality assurance with Mods, more time put towards mods, better Creation Kit engines etc.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

BASED BRODUAL BROS ARE BASED.

And seriously, who the fuck is sending death threats to modders? The guy who makes some of the finest mods out there (Frostfall etc.) may have just quit the scene because of it.

 

[Hellis]

BASED BRODUAL BROS ARE BASED.

And seriously, who the fuck is sending death threats to modders? The guy who makes some of the finest mods out there (Frostfall etc.) may have just quit the scene because of it.

The gaming community is filled to the brink with asshats. This is nothing new. If people are willing to attack journalists (or just other gamers), there are those willing to attack a modder. Perceived slights + Anonymity = clusterfuck

 

[Brovo]

• Valve made a number of poor judgments and predictions. They are now working on improving the service so it works better.

• This includes giving all mods access to such a feature, with a 0$ minimum which is basically no different than before (though seriously, they need to let workshop play nice with load orders and compatibility).

Largely probably due to public outcry, but nonetheless? This pretty much addresses my biggest concerns. +1.

I just hope the 75% thing gets resolved too, though.

 

[Windsong]

Update: valve is refunding all money used to buy mods.

http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218