Might as Well Jump on the Bandwagon - Views on the Military

Discussion in 'THREAD ARCHIVES' started by Clyde, Apr 28, 2016.

?

Civilian Rule or Military Rule

  1. Civilian Rule

    8 vote(s)
    88.9%
  2. Military Rule

    1 vote(s)
    11.1%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Because I veered so far away from the original topic about woman in the military. I decided that I jump on the bandwagon and do a two parter discussion.

    One is the simple question, what are your views on military and war?

    The second, coincides with the poll, Civilian Rule or Military Rule?
     
  2. Do you mean "civilian rule or military rule" as in by the government? Well, that's easy, civilian. Military rulerships are dictatorships by nature. The military is supposed to serve the country, not rule over it.

    As for military and war, I suppose I'll give a tl;dr version of every point I can think of.
    • Soldiers: Unless they demonstrate why they shouldn't have it, they always have my respect.
    • Role of Military: To serve the interests of the government, which should be beholden to the needs of the people. Note: Needs. Even if the majority of the people wish to go on a bloodthirsty vengeance-inspired blood curdling rampage across another country, that's not going to help the people in any way, shape, or form.
    • Actually Going To War: Cassus Belli or Casus Foederis. The former means a justification for war, the latter means threats levied against an ally. Legitimate reasons for going to war should include but not be limited to...
      • Humanitarian Crisis: If any leader should decide that murdering thousands of his own people is justified out of simple hatred, we need to take that fucker down. That kind of medieval thinking should not be tolerated in the nuclear age.
      • We've Been Attacked: And we know who did it beyond a shadow of a doubt, and diplomacy can't be used to resolve the problem first. Being reassured that "we'll find those weapons of mass destruction one day" is not a fucking good reason to go to war. Suspicions aren't good enough. Confirm it.
      • Our Allies Are Under Attack: We're better together. NATO has been one of the greatest forces for peace by its sheer indomitable position as being the most powerful military alliance on Earth. There has not been a war waged in North America or Western Europe since World War 2. That's over sixty years of peace. Therefore, we should bind our countries together with alliances that will stand the test of time, and ensure they're founded upon principles which inspire liberty and science to flourish for all mankind's happiness... This means that if one of our allies is injured by some asshole, we should turn like 26 children against the playground bully and make sure he can't do that again. Human lives are not a fucking game. This also binds back to Casus Foederis, since friends stand together and help each other.
    • We Should Isolate?: We can't. Globalization made that ship sail a long time ago. When any part of the world is suffering, everyone feels it. When the US housing market crashed and the economy went into a recession, the entire world felt the results. However we go into the future now, we go tied together, and mankind shall only be as strong as the weakest link in the chain.
    • Military Industrial Complex: I have mixed feelings about it that I could go on about for ages. I think it needs reforms in the US, it's grotesquely and wildly out of control. Billions go into projects that the government doesn't even get to know about. That's... That's pretty fucking stupid. The US should really audit the Pentagon and peel back some of that excess funding, because so far as I understand it, projects will intentionally misappropriate excess yearly funding so it won't be cut from them in future years when they might need it. As for Canada, we don't actually invest fuck all into our own military industry and it's baffling why we don't. It would create jobs and allow us to produce some of our own equipment without having to pay enormous sums of money to get US hardware. (Even if we still pay enormous sums, at least it would reinvest locally, but eh', that costs an initial investment, and the liberals are too busy selling all our gold and plunging my country into billions and billions in deficits. Yay.)
    • Veterans: We are simply failing them. Period. Especially situations involving mental health are fucking horrible. More needs to be done here. Maybe if more was pulled out of shitty, massively overbloated military industrial projects... :ferret:
     
    I can respect someone without having to accept something they have done. I guess I am just not patriotic in that standpoint. I figure that if we had people who finally said enough is enough, we don't want to be soldiers and let's find different ways of solving the worlds problems, that we wouldn't need soldiers. Let alone its hard for me to support people supporting something I don't support.
    Yet, this kind of industry has a lot of secrets and lie and misinformation. It directly cuts out the citizen in a lot of decisions being made or what could happen to the citizen and their freedom.
    • Actually Going To War: Cassus Belli or Casus Foederis. The former means a justification for war, the latter means threats levied against an ally. Legitimate reasons for going to war should include but not be limited to...
      • Humanitarian Crisis: If any leader should decide that murdering thousands of his own people is justified out of simple hatred, we need to take that fucker down. That kind of medieval thinking should not be tolerated in the nuclear age.
      • We've Been Attacked: And we know who did it beyond a shadow of a doubt, and diplomacy can't be used to resolve the problem first. Being reassured that "we'll find those weapons of mass destruction one day" is not a fucking good reason to go to war. Suspicions aren't good enough. Confirm it.
      • Our Allies Are Under Attack: We're better together. NATO has been one of the greatest forces for peace by its sheer indomitable position as being the most powerful military alliance on Earth. There has not been a war waged in North America or Western Europe since World War 2. That's over sixty years of peace. Therefore, we should bind our countries together with alliances that will stand the test of time, and ensure they're founded upon principles which inspire liberty and science to flourish for all mankind's happiness... This means that if one of our allies is injured by some asshole, we should turn like 26 children against the playground bully and make sure he can't do that again. Human lives are not a fucking game. This also binds back to Casus Foederis, since friends stand together and help each other.
    But then I see the things we have done in war. I mean I can pull from history and it's one of the reason why America has some shaky history and relationships with Japan. America bombed Japan with an nuclear bomb twice. One was directly after Pearl Harbor and the second time was after Japan had given up, which was during the first hit from the bomb and we still bombed them after they surrendered. I am sorry I just cannot support war, especially when people do bullshit like that.
    I never said anything about isolation, but I feel like we simply need a better way of globally dealing with each other. Instead of the first notion, "he doesn't agree me time to blow him up"
    • Military Industrial Complex: I have mixed feelings about it that I could go on about for ages. I think it needs reforms in the US, it's grotesquely and wildly out of control. Billions go into projects that the government doesn't even get to know about. That's... That's pretty fucking stupid. The US should really audit the Pentagon and peel back some of that excess funding, because so far as I understand it, projects will intentionally misappropriate excess yearly funding so it won't be cut from them in future years when they might need it. As for Canada, we don't actually invest fuck all into our own military industry and it's baffling why we don't. It would create jobs and allow us to produce some of our own equipment without having to pay enormous sums of money to get US hardware. (Even if we still pay enormous sums, at least it would reinvest locally, but eh', that costs an initial investment, and the liberals are too busy selling all our gold and plunging my country into billions and billions in deficits. Yay.)
    Personally I much prefer a Canadian system. I rather focus on important things like education. I just think a lot of the, he said she said bullcrap of extremist could be easily fixed, if we hit the youth as kids with education. Have them experience different cultures. Have them learn more about the global world they live in.
    • Veterans: We are simply failing them. Period. Especially situations involving mental health are fucking horrible. More needs to be done here. Maybe if more was pulled out of shitty, massively overbloated military industrial projects... :ferret:

    Wholeheartedly agree
     
  3. Uh, no.

    Japan surrendered days AFTER the second bomb. They literally had no idea that was all the US had in its arsenal and with no way to counter it, surrender was the only option, and they were also terrified of the USSR having declared war on them and beginning to press hard against them. Had it not been for the nuclear weapons, it is very likely Japan would have not surrendered until their military was completely dismantled, and even then, their soldiers would have likely kept fighting in guerilla fashion; One Imperial Japanese soldier was MIA on a remote Pacific island and discovered in the 1970s, and he thought the war was still going on. Imperial Japan was a brutal conquering empire that subjugated and committed unspeakable atrocities against the local populations under areas it occupied and the way it treated POWs was absolutely horrific and in a lot of ways worse than the German concentration camps; they literally didn't see people who surrendered as human beings worth respecting, which isn't surprising given that they almost always fought to the last man and it was extremely uncommon for a Japanese soldier to surrender, preferring suicide or death through fighting than capitulating to the enemy.

    If the Allied forces were forced to invade mainland Japan, it is estimated that at LEAST 300,000 to 400,000 people would have died before Japan was forced to surrender.

    You cannot talk sense into extremists. Sure, it's wonderful to say "hey, there's a better way!" but seriously, go to ISIS territory and try telling them that slaughtering innocents who don't fit their narrow dogmatic views and ethnic cleansing is bad. Hell, teach them how to play Yu-Gi-Oh while you're at it. I'm sure nobody else in the history of mankind has tried to find a diplomatic solution to extremist regimes. A developed, wealthy nation with globalized trade and strong flourishing economies will listen to reason and diplomatic solutions to disagreements, but how about countries like Somalia where complications with globalization have utterly decimated the local fishing economy and forced those former fishermen to take up piracy to try and feed their families by ransoming commercial vessels? Please, if you have a solution they could turn to that isn't violent crime on the high seas, let them know! I'm sure they'd love to not risk their lives just to afford to eat.
     
    • Thank Thank x 1
  4. The Japan thing is a bit iffy. Considering that's what American history says, but other histories say other things.

    I am not saying talking to extremist. I am talking to the children. The people not yet quite indoctrinated into it.
     
  5. The Japan thing isn't iffy. America dropped a bomb, then asked for a surrender. Japan said and did nothing but continue to fight, then the USSR declared war on Japan, then the next day America dropped another bomb. Finally, after that the Japanese Emperor intervened and surrendered. If it wasn't for the Emperor being the one to Surrender, Japan would of fought to the Last Soldier, they were very Patriotic towards their Empire and Emperor.
     
    • Thank Thank x 2
  6. As I said. Other history suggest otherwise. I like how we're also going off topic about this detail.

    Anyway somehow thinking about my thread, I was reminded of this skit

     
  7. ...

    Words fail me. This line of revisionist thinking stupidity is exactly why people deny the holocaust even happened. It isn't "iffy". There's well established and collaborated dates for when the bombs were dropped and when the peace treaty was signed. Do you want to know why people keep repeating atrocities decades after a nearly identical one was committed? Because they willingly forget the horrors of what happened and refuse to accept documented facts as truth. It is extremely dangerous thinking. Did you know in the Balkan wars in the 1990s all sides committed Nazi-like atrocities against each other including ethnic cleansing? This was friggin' 45 years after World War II ended and the horrors of the holocaust were discovered. Do you think it's a good thing that Turkey keeps denying the Armenian genocide, claiming it never happened? If those people get their way, people forget about what happened and it WILL happen again.

    And who do you think talks to children? Their parents. Their teachers. People with deep seated cultural and religious prejudice that teach hate the moment a kid's old enough to talk. Generation after generation of hatred is groomed and perpetuated by entire societies that are so entrenched that no outside force is going to convince them that they're wrong. Even in Israel and Palestine, kids on both sides of the fence grow up throwing rocks at other kids for being on the wrong side of the fence, and when they grow up, they're the ones making the decisions. It's not a cycle that's going to be broken because of an inspiring speech or some outside aid, especially in countries where opinions and actions taken outside of the social norm often lead to imprisonment and death.
     
    • Love Love x 1
    • Nice execution! Nice execution! x 1
  8. Did I say that I disrespect others? No. I have a certain level of respect for everyone as fellow human beings on this Earth. We're stronger together, whether through a glorious diversity of differences and thoughts that combine to create numerous new ideas daily, or supporting the people who protect all of that.
    I'll break this down into parts, because you seem to be committing a fallacy and not knowing it here.

    #1: War is brutal and ugly. The only people who say it's glorious are people who have never seen it. The things we do in war involve killing a lot of people. Those are the horrors of war. That is the price to be paid when engaging in war.

    #2: Japan is one of America's greatest military allies right now. American military bases can still be readily found on Japanese territory, and aside from an extremely complicated situation in Okinawa, the vast majority seems to not mind them being there. Seriously, google the military bases if you'd like.

    #3: Because a mainland invasion of Japan would have cost way more lives than the nukes did.

    #4: Because you're judging events in the past with a modern mindset. The US had no idea what long term effects the nukes would have on Japan, because they didn't have time to run a battery of several-years long tests to see for themselves what it would do.

    #5: The US dropped leaflets explaining to the Japanese that they had to evacuate because massive bombs were going to be dropped on them. They did this multiple times throughout the bombing runs on Japan to try and give the civilians time to evacuate. This is well known historical fact, and it was used in more than just the war against Imperial Japan. Pretending that the US was a warmongering psychopath out to murder all the Japanese senselessly is a gross distortion of history. The fact that you can't even get the dates of the nuclear fucking bombs and the surrender of Japan correctly, demonstrates you have a profound lack of knowledge on the subject matter. I would highly recommend you go back to reading history.

    As for "bullshit like that" it's called war. Look up the Nanking Slaughter if you want justification for why the US had to end this war.
    We hardly resort to violence as the first way of dealing with a threat. For example, we put economic sanctions on Russia for their violent interference in Ukraine. Also, peacekeepers exist. The UN also exists. This is also demonstrating a profound lack of knowledge about world politics on your part... Not that I blame you, it's not easy to keep up with it, there's over a hundred countries to keep up with.
    Our education system is a massive fucking joke. Seriously, it is, it was designed for an era that's come and gone. A high school diploma barely gets you a job working in a McDonalds nowadays.

    Education only matters if people can receive it. Malala Yousafzai was a girl who wanted to learn how to read. She was shot in the head at point blank range by an AK-47. You're not going to stop the guy with the AK-47 from shooting little girls, or blowing up schools, or ripping kids away from their parents to indoctrinate them into child soldier armies in Africa, by asking them to stop. Believe me, they hear parents begging them to stop all the time. You know what they do?

    They shoot them.

    Now what?
    [​IMG]

    Put up or shut up, mate. You don't get to casually reject an argument against your faulty reasoning unless you can back it up.
     
    • Love Love x 1
    • Thank Thank x 1
    • Nice execution! Nice execution! x 1
  9. Holocaust happened. But not to the extent people are told.

    Winners write history. Agree on all other points though.

    Guess some people can't read very well though \_(ツ)_/¯
     
    #10 Windsong, Apr 28, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2016
    • WTF Did I Just Read WTF Did I Just Read x 1
  10. And I agree with that. We cannot fix another countries problems. Only that country can solve their own problems. However! I am speaking and maybe I should have made this more clear, about America in itself.
     
  11. Yes, this is de-railing. The Japan thing isn't iffy because "America says so, her dur America doesn't know when they dropped their own bombs". Many Americans will claim that Pearl Harbor was Japan trying to sneak one in and all that snazzy word stuff. When in truth, Japan actually declared War on the United States, but because of differing Time Zones, they made a mistake and attacked early, before the War was declared.
     
  12. I think with the Japanese thing I was wording something wrong, my apologies. All though I always believe there lies a truth somewhere down the middle. Japan was speaking about Peace negotiations before the Atom Bombs dropped. And were speaking about surrendering. You are right they never surrendered, but they were willing for peace talks my apologies, my wording gets the best of me sometimes.

    As for the education. I still think that education can solely not divide nations, imo. When you understand the opinions of others and when you understand the culture and the way other countries think I think it does help. I know French, German, and British history, grew up in Liverpool, England and probably one of the simplest ways to travel all over the place. But I also studied Egyptian history, Japanese [all my poor wording put my fucking foot in my mouth].

    I like to think I am well verse in understanding that everyone in every country has a point to make. I am probably one of the few people who kind of likes Putin. Especially since he does make some very valid points.

    I believe perception is reality,but as long as we understand that perception is your reality, with more understanding and understanding the perceptions of others we can become more understanding.

    But I am idealistic in that nature and I know wholeheartedly that would never happen.
     
  13. When the kamikazes are in a hurry but time isn't fast enough.
     
  14. Words don't matter until acted upon. A country can think of surrendering without actually doing it. There are too many examples throughout history to even try to list them.
    I have no idea what this point is for. Clarify?
    You... Realize that Putin leads one of the most corrupt governments on Earth, right? Anyone who speaks out against his rule in Russia is silenced brutally in the night. It is essentially a military dictatorship in all but name. He also openly encourages discrimination against the LGBT community. There are wandering vagabonds going across Russia slaughtering gay people and Putin stands by and does nothing.

    He's a wolf in a thin disguise. Don't trust him, he would devour you in an instant to further his own political ambitions... As he has many of his political opponents.


    In all seriousness: I'm fully aware of and support diversity. I'm just under no illusion that there are others out there who would more than happily destroy the society I live in to impose their one and only "truth." The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
    Aye. It hurts, that it won't happen, but we can always strive to encourage understanding and humanitarianism. Empathy doesn't have to stop just because wars happen. After World War 2 ended, the West learned its lesson that it failed to learn at the end of The Great War. The US helped Germany and Japan rebuild. Now? Germany and Japan are some of the United States' strongest economic allies, and their citizens live with immense numbers of liberties. Flawed? Yes. Always flawed, but far better than before.

    An American man, a Japanese man, and a German man can all walk into a bar and share a drink freely now without fear, as friends. It's not all doom and gloom.
     
  15. I’ll go with the short and sweet answer as to what I think of war.

    It is an unfortunate, necessary evil. War brings a lot of Death, but Death is natural. As long as human beings remain a being who thinks subjectively, we will have conflict, and until we have conflict, there will be war. Is it always the first solution? No. Is it a solution for some instances where all options are exhausted? Yes.

    Clyde. As much are your views are great, it’s simply not how all human beings think and it is a delusion to think everything should be resolved in the same manner or in reasonable manners.
     
    • Nice execution! Nice execution! x 1
  16. I do realize that, but just because someone is corrupt doesn't mean they cannot make some points.

    And I agree it's not all doom and gloom. I just.....I am not exactly sure why war and violence puts me off so much. Probably because I grew up when Margaret Thatcher left such a shit stain hole in my countries regime.

    All though to be truthful, I'm a lot more Imperial than most Americans are too. So that's always a big issue when I am discussing these issues.
     
  17. Out of curiosity, mind explaining at what extent of the Holocaust DID happen and cite your sources? I have sources that might prove you right, though maybe not in the way that you are thinking. Rather, that the extent that people are told is much, much greater, considerably greater than what they are often told.

    As for the thread's main topic, I believe that civilians should rule their governments and that the government should act only in the better interest of the civilians. A simple concept on how a democracy should be like. Military rule is really nothing more than a dictatorship.
     
  18. Nope. Don't care enough to even bother really.

    Though I do love the stories of a roller coaster into a giant furnace. My favorite.
     
  19. Ah, fair enough. Good ole' Margie and the Falkland Islands.

    Just, in the future, I would recommend reading more history. It's fascinating, if nothing else, and shows why many wars became unavoidable in their times.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.