Legal Working Age in BC

Discussion in 'THREAD ARCHIVES' started by Minibit, Aug 23, 2015.

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  1. Legal Working Ages in BC, Canada:
    • 12: (Supervision of a person aged 19 or older at all times while working; Maximum 4 hours on a school day; Maximum 7 hours on a non-school day; Maximum 20 hours in a week that has five school days; Maximum 35 hours in any other week; Written permission of parents is needed)
    • 15: Unrestricted
    I go back and forth about how I feel on this topic.

    On one hand:
    I can't imagine any job where a twelve-year old would be able to accomplish enough tasks skillfully or efficiently enough to be worth the wages and trouble to employ them, especially considering the (understandable and good) restrictions on hours. Conclusion: Kids can't work as hard, fast, or efficiently, and you can't schedule them often or for long enough to make up for this in hours covered.

    On the other:
    I imagine there's probably a lot of low-income families that really need the kids to be working, or even a lot of kids that need to start working asap to pay for college or other goals. paycheques beat welfare cheques anyday. Being in the workplace is also better than being out stealing from corner stores; not saying that not working makes people into criminals, but seems to me like kids are less likely to be tempted to steal if they have money to spend.

    I have no issue with 15 year olds being able to work under the same laws as adults.


    Are these working ages reasonable?
    If not, what would be reasonable ages?
    Your reasoning?

    As always, let's keep it clean, non-personal, and remember that everyone has the right to state their opinion without being ridiculed for it - even if their opinion is stupid. Choose your battles!
     
  2. I still remember when I was those ages perfectly. At those ages, I was more than capable of a job (I also had more energy back then and stuff too, so I'm probably more physically qualified back then than I am now XP)

    As for if they should be hired, well that is a tough one. Yeah there are low income families, but they still have income regardless, unlike a out of school kid who basically needs to move out ASAP due to parents, and being beat out by a 15 year old kid who doesn't even need money at the time doesn't sound very pleasant for anybody (Except the kid and maybe the parents)

    So personally, I would be against it. Primarily because if you can make it low income, then you can make it low income. It may not be too pleasant, but you can still make due. And if the parent relied too heavily on the childs income and when the child moves out, the parent will be screwed (Kinda like my friends mother, she put the child support into her budget, when my friend became of age, she got screwed a bit as she didn't account for the loss of income.) So it may be a bit sad, but if the parents are low income, then they'll have to deal with it as I personally prefer someone being low income than someone being on the streets.


    Now if the economy is booming and there's jobs around every corner, then I'd be for kids having jobs and stuff, although an adult out of school taking priority over that job (meaning the kid can be replaced as I think an adult getting a job is more important than a teenager) But I have a feeling that's not quite the case.
     
  3. Considering the fact that hiring younger people like that is totally up to the discretion of the employer, I'd say it's fine as is. I doubt you'll find many who would be willing to hire a kid to do anything but menial labor anyway, and such menial labor is fully within the capabilities of a 12 year old person. I could see a kid stocking shelves, doing basic janitorial work, doing yard work, working at a thrift store sorting through donations, and so on without being grossly inefficient. If the employer just wants a part timer to do basic tasks like that and the kid is capable of doing it, it's all good, no worries. As long as there are protections in place to keep those kids from being exploited, such as laws against them working in hazardous conditions, then the cost of potential inefficient workers is vastly outweighed by the benefits of giving them a chance to help out their struggling families or start saving up for college early or so on.
     
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  4. Fast food, light janitorial services, non-sales store associate positions. :ferret:

    I worked a job when I was growing up through high school. Twelve might be a little on the young side, but honestly, I lived in poverty once. Being able to draw in an income--no matter how pitifully small--kept food in my stomach. It bought me lunches and text books, library costs, even the occasional video game. So... Yeah. I'm perfectly okay with this, especially considering there are more laws protecting them than there are protecting adults.
     
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  5. Y'all raise valid points!
     
  6. My great grandfather, grandfather, and father all started working at the age of four. They're farmers, if that means anything to you. They would do small tasks like fetching items or filling water, feeding animals, that sort of thing. Just the small stuff that was within their capability and allowed adults more time to take up bigger tasks.

    My cousins, also on my father's side, were very responsible, hard working kids at the rough age of ten or eleven when I went to visit them in Mexico. They had chores that took them all over the area they lived in, unsupervised and rarely looked after. They did their jobs dutifully and were never questioned beyond whether they did the job or not.

    I think in the right place and environment children can be a useful piece of the workforce. Obviously you don't want them welding or running about a construction site or something, but as Brovo helped point out, cleaning or fetching things isn't out of reach. Teaches responsibility, common sense, and a good work ethic that we lack in this generation.
     
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  7. To my knowledge Ontario is a bit more straight forward than that.
    At 14 you can get job, before then you can't save for the Paper Route.
    End of story.

    Personally I have mixed opinions on minor's working.
    On one end I agree with the points raised that it provides support for poor families, gives some work experience, could be easy labour jobs etc.

    Though at the same time, the Idealistic side of me thinks that if the Child is really that poor then it's our welfare that needs to be improving, not us making those children work.
    That and we're in an environment/community where Jobs are still hard to come by for people. I feel like that issue only get's compounded when jobs as Adult could have grabbed to get some level of income off of now has it taken by some kid, a kid who a lot of the time just wants the cash to buy new clothes, games, concerts etc.

    And as much as I'm for giving children freedom to spend, get experience etc.
    If I had to choose between a child getting extra spending money, and an adult being able to provide, I'm going with the Adult every time.
    That's just something where the money is more important/vital to be showing up in.
     
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  8. Oi Mate! It's quite obvious you're underestimating the potential of these lads and lasses. Sure their little noggins are significantly less developed than you or me, but that's exactly why they're so darn useful. Plus it's always nice to give the Misses some time alone with the hubby, assuming they clock out together at me coal mine that is!

    These be hard times mate, and every little penny counts. Which is exactly what I give the little buggers who work at me factory. I like to think of them as me very own children when they step into my soot covered floors. Mainly because some of 'em don't got no parents as is. What's best about 'em is all them little nooks and crags they can crawl into, unjam some of the pieces of the machinery and what not. It also serves as their dinner since thats where all the bread crumbs end up. Gotta fight the local rats for it though, but I always say that it serves as good exercise! Plus they hands is small enough to stick into the machines and jump start the lousy things, and its so dark inside that they can't see all the sharp edges! Who needs lights anyway? It's bad for your skin is what I've told the missus, natural light is always preferred, even at night! And they can't get uppity and start talking about Unions or whatever Frankfurt nonsense has been put into they heads, I'll just tell little Suzy that I'll send her back to the orphanage, or better yet on the Street corner! That shuts 'em up quick.
     
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  9. I got my first job when I was 14. I wouldn't have any problem with a 12 year old starting work. Kids aren't as dumb and helpless as people make them out to be, and that's coming from somebody who generally dislikes kids.

    As for the points like this,

    It's not an employer's place to judge who needs money more or what they do with it, and it's not society's place to do that, either. Who says a 15 year old kid might not really need money? After all, college is only a few short years away, and maybe they're trying to save for a used car for when they get their driver's license. The only thing that matters is if they are capable of the job, and if they make a good impression on the employer. If they don't pan out, that's what probation is for.

    The thing is, I'm pretty sure the whole "35 hours a week max" thing will only ever come into effect over summer break, because the vast majority of 12 year olds are full time students. It's never too early to learn to be a bit more self-sufficient and responsible. If a kid wants to work that much, like hell I'm going to tell them that they can't do it. Give them a chance to prove it. The fact they'd even consider working that much says a lot about the kid. Also, all the extra hours in the law is probably to protect families in cases like ARM Pig mentioned about farming or helping out at a family-run business. Just because the law is generous with the number of work hours doesn't mean it'll often be used to that extent. It just saves a lot of legal troubles for people, especially if they have to start clock watching in fear of going even an hour over the limit.

    However, if it's entirely because the kid's helping support his or her family financially, that's fucked up and should never, ever happen. A kid shouldn't be pressured to work to support a family, and the law should protect them from that. Like Gwazi said,

    I do want to point out that the idea of tweens and teenagers stealing jobs from adults is kind of like when people complain about immigrants taking all the jobs; they're not necessarily competing for the same jobs as someone in a different demographic. Case in point, back in my hometown, a huge percentage of farm workers are temporary foreign workers from Mexico. I have never once in my life heard of somebody who didn't already have family interests in farming proclaim they wanted to do farm work for a living, and if we're looking at totally basic entry level jobs that are the only feasible place for kids to get a job, most adults have advanced past those jobs because of experience/ education, and those who don't are often looking for full time hours, unlike students. Unless times are really tough, there's not going to be much, if any, cross competition, and employers are almost always going to go with who has more experience and skills. Even having one or two jobs under your belt is more alluring for a prospective employer than someone who's greatest accomplishment thus far was getting a participant ribbon in soccer.
     
  10. @Dervish

    Kids aren't as dumb and helpless as people make them out to be, and that's coming from somebody who generally dislikes kids.
    People who know that are awkwardly rare DX It's like people instantly forget what it's like to be younger. But that's also why they can be a threat to someone who desperately needs any form of income XP

    It's not an employer's place to judge who needs money more or what they do with it, and it's not society's place to do that, either.
    Well yeah, it's nobodies job to determine that, and that's why it's not determined. If a kid can do a job better, then the kid can do the job better.

    Who says a 15 year old kid might not really need money?
    Because the child is 15 living in a house and if he is not, then as you said, the law should be protecting him/her from that. So no, they don't NEED money, they want money for either entertainment or to speed up their future plans.

    After all, college is only a few short years away, and maybe they're trying to save for a used car for when they get their driver's license.
    Which college isn't guaranteed to get you a job. I know way too many people who are in so much debt from college/universities and don't have a job even after all of that. And sure, they can save up for a car from the job, but like I said before, I prefer a person getting out of school to get a job and get a roof over their head over a 15 year old who already has those necessities and simply wants to make things come to them faster/easier.

    It's never too early to learn to be a bit more self-sufficient and responsible. If a kid wants to work that much, like hell I'm going to tell them that they can't do it. Give them a chance to prove it.
    I don't know about where you live, but around here schools have a required community service/volunteer thing, where you have to get in so many hours of volunteer work to get more responsibilities and get use to the working field a bit (And these are things that can be used on your resume if I remember correctly) They're gaining that experience and responsibility.


    Now where i'm living, there are no jobs open. Everybody I know can't get a job because there just aren't any, so allot of people are struggling and under allot of stress. That number would be allot more if teenagers going to school starts taking up those slots that graduated people desperately need. If an area has more jobs than people, then sure, hire on all the teenagers and stuff. But At least where I live, there's more people than jobs even if you don't count teenagers, so that in its self is a problem I think would need to be fixed before we even consider letting teenagers get a head start/just get luxury money.


    I do want to point out that the idea of tweens and teenagers stealing jobs from adults is kind of like when people complain about immigrants taking all the jobs; they're not necessarily competing for the same jobs as someone in a different demographic.
    Hardly (At least for my reasons) Even immigrants from across the border are getting jobs to get a roof over their own head and care for them-self/their family. Ignore the barrier/ethnicity, there's not much difference between them, and my neighbors. They have a super tough life, which is why they settle for jobs that nobody else wants. Americans kinda feel entitled. But that really helps them in the end as they find those jobs that we wont even consider livable, unlike being on the streets. (So I really don't understand your comparison.

    And the people who say that immigrants steal our jobs aren't entirely wrong either. I forgot the name, but there's an entire section of this one city that HEAVILY gravitates towards Mexicans. Like you can be the perfect guy for the job and this random immigrant can be the worst thing for the job, he'll/she'll still get the job above you. But I don't put American's above Mexicans as I see them both as simply people so all I really see are people trying to survive.

    Case in point, back in my hometown, I have never once in my life heard of somebody who didn't already have family interests in farming proclaim they wanted to do farm work for a living
    Sounds like they have that farming option in the first place. Allot of people don't have that luxury. It's a tough job, but its available. Country life is a bit different from city life, and I think we're talking a bit more about city life (At least I am) If I grew up in that situation, then my ass will be farming until I can find a way out of it XP

    and if we're looking at totally basic entry level jobs that are the only feasible place for kids to get a job
    They're also the only feasible place for an adult to get a job too because no higher position is going to higher somebody who has no job experience. Have you heard the saying "Your first job is the hardest to get?" That's because a company sees no difference between you, and that 15 year old.

    most adults have advanced past those jobs because of experience/ education, and those who don't are often looking for full time hours, unlike students.
    How is an adult suppose to advance past those jobs if they can't get the experience in the first place because their job got hijacked by a 15 year old? XD I have a feeling we live in 2 completely different places. Your place sounds like it has quite a bit of jobs open so this isn't even an issue for your area.

    Sure, most adults have moved past that, but i'm not talking about that 35 year old with a career and a set future, i'm talking about a fresh out of high school person who basically needs to get a job or is going to be out in the streets (Which parents are not above doing. One of my friends ONLY has a roof over his head because he gets lucky and gets one time jobs which basically pay him 200 dollars every like month or so (It pays in sheer tips. It's not really a job, but is an income of sorts non the less) if he didn't get lucky with that, he would be on the streets.

    and those who don't are often looking for full time hours, unlike students.
    And those same people also don't get full time hours so they are forced to work multiple part time jobs just to barely get by. If those part time jobs are filled with 15 year olds, then guess who doesn't get by? Last I heard, a single part time job isn't nearly enough to get by.

    Not to mention people in college. They go for the part time jobs for an apartment/whatever, plus paying for college and all of its expenses. If a bunch of 14 year olds get all those part time jobs, then the college student gets screwed, and potentially has to quit college as they don't have the funds to keep going.

    (And a fun full circle, if those students were yesterdays 15 year olds, then those same people prevented someone from getting by, and then they wasted a bunch of money on college because they cant finish it because of what they did when they were younger)

    there's not going to be much, if any, cross competition, and employers are almost always going to go with who has more experience and skills.
    But if the teenager gets the job before the other person applies, then it's not going to matter if there's competition because the 14 year old found it before the person who needs it did. And that's assuming the company priorities highschool diploma's over the 15 year olds potentially good resume despite not have graduating.

    Unless times are really tough,
    Which they are, which is why I think this topic was probably started in the first place, because it's a problem that exist and a subject that people are mixed about.


    So really I Think it just comes to area. A place that has more than enough jobs don't have to worry about it, so sure, let everyone work no matter the age. But allot of places these days have it rough and people can't get jobs. And the last thing people need are a bunch of teenagers getting their hands on those jobs just because they want better access to the newest console/games or want a head start to a car and college. I've understood that all throughout my teenage years which is why I didn't aim to get a job. I lived in a very good house and basically got everything I could ever dream of. Getting a job despite that would be selfish of me DX (Good-guy Pharaoh XP)
     
  11. The only reason I'm cautious about the teenage job thing to begin with is because of what we currently lack.
    If we had the welfare where an adult getting shit luck could see have shelter and something to eat, and college students weren't forced to work a job on the side to stay in school?
    Then I'd be more than glad to have jobs be open market to Teens living at home assuming they have the skills.

    But until such welfare and educational support is present, I personally am going to place the priority on those who need the number of live and/or get educated over those who are simply looking for spending money and/or polishing up a resume.

    I love the idea of teen's getting the experience if they want it, but I need to prioritize people's abilities to support themselves.

    Now, once again this just personal thoughts and feelings on the matter.
    I recognize that I can't actually change that, and that employer's will always hire who they want.
     
    #11 Gwazi Magnum, Aug 24, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2015
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  12. As laudable as it is to not want to take up a job because you feel you don't need it, a good reason to get one would be for more financial security of yourself and by extension your family. If you start early in the working world it allows you to gain experience with handling and saving money, budgeting and as I mentioned before, good work ethic. If you start paying for your own things that frees up your family from having to support you as much and I could think of a lot of parents that would definitely enjoy not having to spend more money on school clothes, supplies, or even entertainment. That savings adds up substantially over the years and could go to helping said families in many ways.

    To me, it seems selfish to abstain from learning these skills and gaining any job experience early on. Additionally, not every job is available to all ages. In the food service industry, some places require you to be a certain age to handle money or be able to cook food. In industrial jobs, one has to be a certain age just to be eligible for said job because of insurance and safety reasons.

    As was said earlier, it is neither up to society or employers to decide who needs the job more. It's up to an employer to decide who they desire more to make their business more successful. It sounds harsh, but that is the way things work much of the time.

    I'm not from a place that has a lot of jobs to begin with. I know I could have been beaten out of a job by some teenager who didn't need the money. I accept that life happens that way. I would applaud them for their efforts and their willingness to learn skills that will help them as they grow, and shake my fist at them for taking what I wanted. Does this mean I feel that they should not work? Of course not. If that were the case, I wouldn't have gotten a job when I was a youth. And that experience would not have been with me as I became an adult. I would have had less to offer when I sought out other means of employment.

    I still stand by the idea of teaching youth the meaning of hard work and personal responsibility. Sure I would like to think they are doing it because it's needed and not simply something to pad their wallet, but that sort of altruistic thinking gets us nowhere.
     
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  13. There's definitely some pros and cons to this. I don't see a problem with it personally but that's me assuming that the 12 year old is not expected to do a lot of time sensitive tasks or tasks that can only be handled by an adult. I hear many a horror stories from my friends about the high school aged individuals that just stand around even when given a simple duty(i.e. bussing tables). There are individuals that just want/need to work for their livelihoods though.
     
  14. Generally speaking, I think that the baseline for if this is a good thing or not involves if its creation benefits young workers. Making sure that is the case should be part of the package.
     
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